- 06-21-2008, 04:52 PM
Ok, just finished 5weeks of hdrol (wow!). Going to starting my PCT on monday. I have posted a thread on my PCT, but just want to make sure of what i "really" need and stuff I dont "really" need. Thanks for dman for posting the thread "otc pct".
Anyway, here is what is planned.
Stoked: 4 caps/day
Lean Xtreme: 3/day (start day 15)
6-oxo: tapered down starting in week 3 or week 4 ??-- 300/200/100/100ed
**** question **** Is the stoked @ 4caps/day the same as PCS 4caps/day??
**** question **** When it says start 6-oxo in week 4, that is week 4 of my PCT, or does that mean week 4 of the hdrol cycle?
**** question **** Do i need I3C @ 600 mgs/ed? If so, can this be bought at a health food store? (i believe i have seen it before)
Any suggestion are appreciated. thanks
- 06-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Start the 6oxo in week 3 of pct and taper it up and then back down. This is the standard protocol for running an AI alongside your SERM.
You wont need the I3C if your running the 6oxo.
And a quick look at the store will tell you what the stoked* profile contains.(I can't think of it off the top of my head).
Overall your PCT looks VERY good especially for a 5weeker of HD.
06-21-2008, 05:10 PM
06-21-2008, 05:43 PM
06-21-2008, 06:20 PM
The taper up then down is what I have used in the past to get rid of gyno flare-ups, puffy nipps ect. I was running Havoc though so just tapering it straight down would probably surfice with a HD cycle BUT, I would start it in week 3 of pct not 4.
WHY??? Your estro is high coming off cycle and test is obviously suppressed greatly. All a SERM does is block the negative effects of estro in targeted tissue ie. breast tissue in this case. It does not lower estro at all, so if you wait until you have stopped your nolva treatment to start the AI you could be in for a rebound. You want to lower the total estro BEFORE coming off the SERM to prevent any neg effect, fat gain, water retention, gyno ect, ect....That is why the BEST method IMO is to start it before cessation of the SERM to get estro under control before coming off it, then tapering down to further eliminate any rebound it (estrogen) could have.
That was a good post lol......
06-21-2008, 07:35 PM
I gotta ask you this, if test is low how would estrogen be high, considering the substrate to produce estrogen in the human body is test? It doesn't make sense. And if you got blood work done after your cycle, you would see exactly this: Test is low and so is estrogen.
Am H-drol cycle admittedly will not shut you down as hard as a SD cycle so you may not have as low of levels but nonetheless, if you shutdown test production estrogen levels will follow.
The reason for starting 6-oxo later in PCT (weeks 3-4) is that it takes about two weeks for your body to get its own production of test going again at which time estrogen levels will rise too. You introduce a 6-oxo product (tapered down) to reduce estrogen production and let it come back in a controlled fashion. By tapering down you reduce the hyper-sensitization of ER's so that when estrogen does begin to come back it will not over exert it's effects on ER's. This also helps to create a new setpoint at which the T/E ratio is maintained so that test levels will be maintained higher that estrogen levels ...
06-21-2008, 09:28 PM
06-21-2008, 09:58 PM
Your natural test may be suppressed during a cycle, endogenously, but you're getting an exogenous test source - otherwise your endogenous source wouldn't be suppressed. Thus, your test levels are elevated during the cycle. It is post cycle that your exogenous levels are lower than than should, but still relatively around an average norm while your estrogen remains elevated - thus increased serum estrogen, decreased testosterone production, androgen receptor defects may all account for your feared gynecomastia... excess estrogen activity, antiandrogens and GnRH analogs can also cause gynecomastia. Be wary too that because of 4-androstenedione (19-carbon steroid hormone produced in the adrenal glands and the gonads as an intermediate step in the biochemical pathway that produces the androgen testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol) may be converted by aromatase into estrone, a form of estrogen -
thus from your high levels of exogenous test (or what's present) thereof post cycle.. which is why most PCT's recommend an Aromatase Inhibitor, a SERM, a natural Test booster, cortisol control (not mentioned above - catabolic steroid) & a lot of people suggest I3C for hormonal support... not to mention liver supports for methylated products...
Good luck, OP.
DMangiarelli knows his ****! Check out his site, www.OTCPCT.com
06-21-2008, 10:02 PM
06-21-2008, 10:07 PM
The fear is that the "elevated" testosterone sources, exogenously, will aromatize into estrone... thus elevate your estrogen levels...
Sorry I should've been more clear.
06-21-2008, 10:17 PM
06-21-2008, 10:22 PM
Alright never mind.....I think I see what your getting at. Your saying the neg estrogenic sides experienced by users are from the aromatization of exogenous T and not naturaly elevated estro levels coming off cycle right????
06-21-2008, 10:33 PM
It has been shown that estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; as well, estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis... when interrupted can play an integral role in promoting seconday sex characteristics of the opposite gender, obviously - but no... because of your natural test suppression, the common understand and most would agree - is to begin the AI 2 weeks into your PCT since at that point your test levels are beginning to rise and you wish to prevent such aromitization to occur.
06-21-2008, 10:37 PM
that only applies on a test cycle, or a cycle of an aromatizable hormone like dianabol. so your natural production of test is suppressed, but there is another substance that can be converted to estrogen. on halo, epi, superdrol, etc there is no testosterone, and they can't be converted to estrogen themselves. That was one of the big pluses of 1-t, as it was like test, but can't aromatize
06-21-2008, 10:49 PM
OP start your fcuking AI the start of week three and tapper down. This thread is giving me a headache
I believe that estro is high coming off cycle as this is what my research and application has lead me to believe but good conversation none the less.
Nice meeting you Rob A.!! I'll see you guys around...........
06-22-2008, 12:03 AM
06-22-2008, 12:09 AM
06-22-2008, 12:16 AM
When you get hyper-sensitive ER's a much lower amount of estrogen can exert a much greater effect on the ER's. The harder you get shutdown the more sensitive the ER's. That is why you tend to see estrogen rebound gyno with SD and Phera. That along with elevated prolactin levels ...
06-22-2008, 12:31 AM
Does it really matter what type of steroid your using? I mean if you use nolva even if your estro is too high when you come off cycle the nolva should keep the sides at bay? And then by the 3rd or 4th week when your nolva is lower dose you bring in the AI to bring it down to a manageable level. Then taper the AI off after the nolva is done.
06-22-2008, 12:41 AM
[email protected] good post brother!!
I'm getting ready to run a short two weeker of superdrol and I AM gyno prone. I wasn't planning on running anything for pct but the staples, nolva 20,20, p-5-p, and Activate Extreme for four weeks. Should I use an AI in this fashion and what should I go with??
I ask because I ran Epidrol at a high dose a month or so go and am STILL having prolactin issues and I did get a bad gyno flare up at 40mgs ed. I was able to crush it with my over kill pct (yes I had the world famous PCS in there lol) and I used 6oxo tapered up then back down starting in week 3. Anyways I was thinking this would be my safest bet. To get in and get out before I get shut down????
06-22-2008, 12:48 AM
06-22-2008, 12:50 AM
06-22-2008, 08:53 AM
06-22-2008, 01:39 PM
06-22-2008, 01:44 PM
06-23-2008, 09:35 AM
06-23-2008, 09:37 AM
so, how were the gains so far? any sides? before/after pics?
I am running this in july...but, my pct is a lot more basic. I have nolva on hand but won't be using it. I am gonna use Post Cycle Therapy for 4 weeks and end of 2nd week in start Lean Xtreme...that is it for mine.
06-23-2008, 09:59 AM
Out of curiosity, is Nolva needed for pct?
Following my cycle of 50/50/75/75 I was planning on running 6-oxo and tapering it down over 4 weeks and adding an anti-cort on day 15 of PCT. Will this be sufficient?
I have Nolva on standby but was planning on keeping it for a stronger cycle e.g. s-drol but I can always get more.
06-23-2008, 10:05 AM
06-23-2008, 10:22 AM
From what I have seen on the subject I thought it was probably too much too. I'll keep it on hand for another day!
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