Hdrol PCT

msucurt

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Ok, just finished 5weeks of hdrol (wow!). Going to starting my PCT on monday. I have posted a thread on my PCT, but just want to make sure of what i "really" need and stuff I dont "really" need. Thanks for dman for posting the thread "otc pct".

Anyway, here is what is planned.

PCT: (4weeks)

Nolva: 20/20/10/10
Stoked: 4 caps/day
Lean Xtreme: 3/day (start day 15)
6-oxo: tapered down starting in week 3 or week 4 ??-- 300/200/100/100ed


**** question **** Is the stoked @ 4caps/day the same as PCS 4caps/day??

**** question **** When it says start 6-oxo in week 4, that is week 4 of my PCT, or does that mean week 4 of the hdrol cycle?

**** question **** Do i need I3C @ 600 mgs/ed? If so, can this be bought at a health food store? (i believe i have seen it before)

Any suggestion are appreciated. thanks
 
BlackSheep

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Start the 6oxo in week 3 of pct and taper it up and then back down. This is the standard protocol for running an AI alongside your SERM.
You wont need the I3C if your running the 6oxo.
And a quick look at the store will tell you what the stoked* profile contains.(I can't think of it off the top of my head).
Overall your PCT looks VERY good especially for a 5weeker of HD.
 
msucurt

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Start the 6oxo in week 3 of pct and taper it up and then back down. This is the standard protocol for running an AI alongside your SERM.
You wont need the I3C if your running the 6oxo.
And a quick look at the store will tell you what the stoked* profile contains.(I can't think of it off the top of my head).
Overall your PCT looks VERY good especially for a 5weeker of HD.
thanks black. i havent had anyone suggest tapering up and then down for the 6-oxo. I think i will taper it down, starting in either week 3 or 4. The consensus so far from others is start in week 4 though?

Thanks for your input, as i will do more research.
 
mindgame

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do you have a log of before and after pics?
 
BlackSheep

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thanks black. i havent had anyone suggest tapering up and then down for the 6-oxo. I think i will taper it down, starting in either week 3 or 4. The consensus so far from others is start in week 4 though?

Thanks for your input, as i will do more research.
Aw, no problem brother your very welcome!!
The taper up then down is what I have used in the past to get rid of gyno flare-ups, puffy nipps ect. I was running Havoc though so just tapering it straight down would probably surfice with a HD cycle BUT, I would start it in week 3 of pct not 4.
WHY??? Your estro is high coming off cycle and test is obviously suppressed greatly. All a SERM does is block the negative effects of estro in targeted tissue ie. breast tissue in this case. It does not lower estro at all, so if you wait until you have stopped your nolva treatment to start the AI you could be in for a rebound. You want to lower the total estro BEFORE coming off the SERM to prevent any neg effect, fat gain, water retention, gyno ect, ect....That is why the BEST method IMO is to start it before cessation of the SERM to get estro under control before coming off it, then tapering down to further eliminate any rebound it (estrogen) could have.


That was a good post lol......:clap2:
 
dmangiarelli

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Blacksheep,

I gotta ask you this, if test is low how would estrogen be high, considering the substrate to produce estrogen in the human body is test? It doesn't make sense. And if you got blood work done after your cycle, you would see exactly this: Test is low and so is estrogen.

Am H-drol cycle admittedly will not shut you down as hard as a SD cycle so you may not have as low of levels but nonetheless, if you shutdown test production estrogen levels will follow.

The reason for starting 6-oxo later in PCT (weeks 3-4) is that it takes about two weeks for your body to get its own production of test going again at which time estrogen levels will rise too. You introduce a 6-oxo product (tapered down) to reduce estrogen production and let it come back in a controlled fashion. By tapering down you reduce the hyper-sensitization of ER's so that when estrogen does begin to come back it will not over exert it's effects on ER's. This also helps to create a new setpoint at which the T/E ratio is maintained so that test levels will be maintained higher that estrogen levels ...

Aw, no problem brother your very welcome!!
The taper up then down is what I have used in the past to get rid of gyno flare-ups, puffy nipps ect. I was running Havoc though so just tapering it straight down would probably surfice with a HD cycle BUT, I would start it in week 3 of pct not 4.
WHY??? Your estro is high coming off cycle and test is obviously suppressed greatly. All a SERM does is block the negative effects of estro in targeted tissue ie. breast tissue in this case. It does not lower estro at all, so if you wait until you have stopped your nolva treatment to start the AI you could be in for a rebound. You want to lower the total estro BEFORE coming off the SERM to prevent any neg effect, fat gain, water retention, gyno ect, ect....That is why the BEST method IMO is to start it before cessation of the SERM to get estro under control before coming off it, then tapering down to further eliminate any rebound it (estrogen) could have.


That was a good post lol......:clap2:
 
BlackSheep

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Blacksheep,

I gotta ask you this, if test is low how would estrogen be high, considering the substrate to produce estrogen in the human body is test? It doesn't make sense. ...
Your natural test production is suppressed while on cycle your estrogen production is not. Is this not why people get gyno while running test? When you come off the T your estro is still elevated. You are not stopping the administration of Estrogen your stopping the administration of Test. So estro is still high as it was during cycle to trying to find a balance with your test levels. Granted it may decline after cycle but right as your coming off it is HIGH!! That is a fact my friend.........Estro being low as your coming off cycle is what doesn't make sense. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no endocrinologist.....................
 

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Your natural test production is suppressed while on cycle your estrogen production is not. Is this not why people get gyno while running test? When you come off the T your estro is still elevated. You are not stopping the administration of Estrogen your stopping the administration of Test. So estro is still high as it was during cycle to trying to find a balance with your test levels. Granted it may decline after cycle but right as your coming off it is HIGH!! That is a fact my friend.........Estro being low as your coming off cycle is what doesn't make sense. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no endocrinologist.....................

Your natural test may be suppressed during a cycle, endogenously, but you're getting an exogenous test source - otherwise your endogenous source wouldn't be suppressed. Thus, your test levels are elevated during the cycle. It is post cycle that your exogenous levels are lower than than should, but still relatively around an average norm while your estrogen remains elevated - thus increased serum estrogen, decreased testosterone production, androgen receptor defects may all account for your feared gynecomastia... excess estrogen activity, antiandrogens and GnRH analogs can also cause gynecomastia. Be wary too that because of 4-androstenedione (19-carbon steroid hormone produced in the adrenal glands and the gonads as an intermediate step in the biochemical pathway that produces the androgen testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol) may be converted by aromatase into estrone, a form of estrogen -

thus from your high levels of exogenous test (or what's present) thereof post cycle.. which is why most PCT's recommend an Aromatase Inhibitor, a SERM, a natural Test booster, cortisol control (not mentioned above - catabolic steroid) & a lot of people suggest I3C for hormonal support... not to mention liver supports for methylated products...

Good luck, OP.

DMangiarelli knows his ****! Check out his site, www.OTCPCT.com
 
BlackSheep

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Your natural test may be suppressed during a cycle, endogenously, but you're getting an exogenous test source - otherwise your endogenous source wouldn't be suppressed. Thus, your test levels are elevated during the cycle. It is post cycle that your exogenous levels are lower than than should, but still relatively around an average norm while your estrogen remains elevated
Doesn't this statement prove what I posted earlier?????
 

Rob Awesome

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Doesn't this statement prove what I posted earlier?????
When your testosterone levels decrease, so will your estrogen levels... Le Chatelier's principle may apply.

The fear is that the "elevated" testosterone sources, exogenously, will aromatize into estrone... thus elevate your estrogen levels...

Sorry I should've been more clear.
 
BlackSheep

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When your testosterone levels decrease, so will your estrogen levels... Le Chatelier's principle may apply.

The fear is that the "elevated" testosterone sources, exogenously, will aromatize into estrone... thus elevate your estrogen levels...

Sorry I should've been more clear.
OK, this is my understanding as well but shouldn't estro be elevated right after coming of the exogenous T ??? Unless of course your running something that may suppress estro ie. superdrol, an Epithio ect.......
 
BlackSheep

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Alright never mind.....I think I see what your getting at. Your saying the neg estrogenic sides experienced by users are from the aromatization of exogenous T and not naturaly elevated estro levels coming off cycle right????
 

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OK, this is my understanding as well but shouldn't estro be elevated right after coming of the exogenous T ??? Unless of course your running something that may suppress estro ie. superdrol, an Epithio ect.......
To my understanding - the suppression of estrogens comes about by Aromatase Inhibitors - one of the 'best' so to say being Arimidex. (a potent aromatase inhibitor - Anastrozole)

It has been shown that estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; as well, estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis... when interrupted can play an integral role in promoting seconday sex characteristics of the opposite gender, obviously - but no... because of your natural test suppression, the common understand and most would agree - is to begin the AI 2 weeks into your PCT since at that point your test levels are beginning to rise and you wish to prevent such aromitization to occur.
 
EasyEJL

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yes :)

that only applies on a test cycle, or a cycle of an aromatizable hormone like dianabol. so your natural production of test is suppressed, but there is another substance that can be converted to estrogen. on halo, epi, superdrol, etc there is no testosterone, and they can't be converted to estrogen themselves. That was one of the big pluses of 1-t, as it was like test, but can't aromatize
 
BlackSheep

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, the common understand and most would agree - is to begin the AI 2 weeks into your PCT since at that point your test levels are beginning to rise and you wish to prevent such aromitization to occur.
This is exactly what I posted in the first place bro lol......
OP start your fcuking AI the start of week three and tapper down. This thread is giving me a headache :frustrate
I believe that estro is high coming off cycle as this is what my research and application has lead me to believe but good conversation none the less.
Nice meeting you Rob A.!! I'll see you guys around...........
 
dmangiarelli

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To my understanding - the suppression of estrogens comes about by Aromatase Inhibitors - one of the 'best' so to say being Arimidex. (a potent aromatase inhibitor - Anastrozole)

It has been shown that estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; as well, estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis... when interrupted can play an integral role in promoting seconday sex characteristics of the opposite gender, obviously - but no... because of your natural test suppression, the common understand and most would agree - is to begin the AI 2 weeks into your PCT since at that point your test levels are beginning to rise and you wish to prevent such aromitization to occur.
Not so.The reason for starting later is that while estrogen is not wanted at high levels it is beneficial in building muscle. You need Estrogen to keep the gains you made on cycle. That is why I say week 3-4 because you want the estrogen to come back to some extent. The benefits of slowing down estrogen come when your levels get to a normal setpoint usually around week 4ish. At that time you want to raise test levels while keeping estrogen ther same. This establishes a new setpoint for T/E ratio in which T is higher than it previously was. Basically you are creating an anabolic scenario in PCT while maintaining estrogen levels at a low normal range ...
 
BlackSheep

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Not so.The reason for starting later is that while estrogen is not wanted at high levels it is beneficial in building muscle. You need Estrogen to keep the gains you made on cycle. That is why I say week 3-4 because you want the estrogen to come back to some extent. The benefits of slowing down estrogen come when your levels get to a normal setpoint usually around week 4ish. At that time you want to raise test levels while keeping estrogen ther same. This establishes a new setpoint for T/E ratio in which T is higher than it previously was. Basically you are creating an anabolic scenario in PCT while maintaining estrogen levels at a low normal range ...
OK, that makes sense. So when exactly should you start your AI? At the start of the 3rd week or at the end of it. And also should an AI be implemented in this fashion for a pct of something that is already hard on estrogen ie. superdrol or an Epithio???
 
dmangiarelli

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OK, that makes sense. So when exactly should you start your AI? At the start of the 3rd week or at the end of it. And also should an AI be implemented in this fashion for a pct of something that is already hard on estrogen ie. superdrol or an Epithio???
It really depends on how hard you get shutdown. With something like Phera I'd say 3-4 with H-drol, it's pretty mild, I might start it at week 4 and taper for only three weeks. Phera, SD, Trenadrol, double and triple methyls I'd probably start around the middle of week three and maybe go 4-5 weeks tapered. You are trying to avoid any rebound and with these stronger compounds rebound is more of a possibility due to hyper-sensitive ER's.

When you get hyper-sensitive ER's a much lower amount of estrogen can exert a much greater effect on the ER's. The harder you get shutdown the more sensitive the ER's. That is why you tend to see estrogen rebound gyno with SD and Phera. That along with elevated prolactin levels ...
 
MuscleBound1337

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Does it really matter what type of steroid your using? I mean if you use nolva even if your estro is too high when you come off cycle the nolva should keep the sides at bay? And then by the 3rd or 4th week when your nolva is lower dose you bring in the AI to bring it down to a manageable level. Then taper the AI off after the nolva is done.
 
BlackSheep

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It really depends on how hard you get shutdown. With something like Phera I'd say 3-4 with H-drol, it's pretty mild, I might start it at week 4 and taper for only three weeks. Phera, SD, Trenadrol, double and triple methyls I'd probably start around the middle of week three and maybe go 4-5 weeks tapered. You are trying to avoid any rebound and with these stronger compounds rebound is more of a possibility due to hyper-sensitive ER's.

When you get hyper-sensitive ER's a much lower amount of estrogen can exert a much greater effect on the ER's. The harder you get shutdown the more sensitive the ER's. That is why you tend to see estrogen rebound gyno with SD and Phera. That along with elevated prolactin levels ...
:goodpost: That is a d@mn good post brother!!
I'm getting ready to run a short two weeker of superdrol and I AM gyno prone. I wasn't planning on running anything for pct but the staples, nolva 20,20, p-5-p, and Activate Extreme for four weeks. Should I use an AI in this fashion and what should I go with??
I ask because I ran Epidrol at a high dose a month or so go and am STILL having prolactin issues and I did get a bad gyno flare up at 40mgs ed. I was able to crush it with my over kill pct (yes I had the world famous PCS in there lol) and I used 6oxo tapered up then back down starting in week 3. Anyways I was thinking this would be my safest bet. To get in and get out before I get shut down????
 
dmangiarelli

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:goodpost: That is a d@mn good post brother!!
I'm getting ready to run a short two weeker of superdrol and I AM gyno prone. I wasn't planning on running anything for pct but the staples, nolva 20,20, p-5-p, and Activate Extreme for four weeks. Should I use an AI in this fashion and what should I go with??
I ask because I ran Epidrol at a high dose a month or so go and am STILL having prolactin issues and I did get a bad gyno flare up at 40mgs ed. I was able to crush it with my over kill pct (yes I had the world famous PCS in there lol) and I used 6oxo tapered up then back down starting in week 3. Anyways I was thinking this would be my safest bet. To get in and get out before I get shut down????
Vitex at 400 mgs/day has worked well for others. You have to be careful with p5p as it can be toxic to the nervous system. I'll PM you in a bit, gotta feed the kids dinner! :D
 
BlackSheep

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Vitex at 400 mgs/day has worked well for others. You have to be careful with p5p as it can be toxic to the nervous system. I'll PM you in a bit, gotta feed the kids dinner! :D
Cool brother. I'd really appreciate it whenever you get the chance. Take your time, I'm going to get my kids ready for bed right now so hit me up when ever........Thanks man.:hammer:
 

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Thanks Dman :)

I guess it's back to the books for this student :D
 
dmangiarelli

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Thanks Dman :)

I guess it's back to the books for this student :D
No problem bro! Just remember, estrogen is not the evil hormone everyone makes it out to be. You want to CONTROL it not ELIMINATE it. It is necessary and serves a purpose in your body and having too little is not good. It is a SEX hormone. If you enjoy having less sex, well, eliminate it! LOL! :D It is also a major player in your immune systems function. Estrogen is typically low coming off cycle and coincidentally so is your immune function. Hence, why you usually get sick after a harsh cycle ...
 
msucurt

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Ok, just finished 5weeks of hdrol (wow!). Going to starting my PCT on monday. I have posted a thread on my PCT, but just want to make sure of what i "really" need and stuff I dont "really" need. Thanks for dman for posting the thread "otc pct".

Anyway, here is what is planned.

PCT: (4weeks)

Nolva: 20/20/10/10
Stoked: 4 caps/day
Lean Xtreme: 3/day (start day 15)
6-oxo: tapered down starting in week 3 or week 4 ??-- 300/200/100/100ed


**** question **** Is the stoked @ 4caps/day the same as PCS 4caps/day??

**** question **** When it says start 6-oxo in week 4, that is week 4 of my PCT, or does that mean week 4 of the hdrol cycle?

**** question **** Do i need I3C @ 600 mgs/ed? If so, can this be bought at a health food store? (i believe i have seen it before)

Any suggestion are appreciated. thanks
thanks fellas. Lots of good info here. HOpefully this will help others also. Im going with the above protocol for my PCT. Im going to taper the 6-oxo down in the 300/200/100/100 , probably starting in week 3 or 4....i havent decided yet? Anyone with suggestion on what week?
 
maurice02

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so, how were the gains so far? any sides? before/after pics?

I am running this in july...but, my pct is a lot more basic. I have nolva on hand but won't be using it. I am gonna use Post Cycle Therapy for 4 weeks and end of 2nd week in start Lean Xtreme...that is it for mine.
 

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Out of curiosity, is Nolva needed for pct?

Following my cycle of 50/50/75/75 I was planning on running 6-oxo and tapering it down over 4 weeks and adding an anti-cort on day 15 of PCT. Will this be sufficient?

I have Nolva on standby but was planning on keeping it for a stronger cycle e.g. s-drol but I can always get more.
 
maurice02

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Out of curiosity, is Nolva needed for pct?

Following my cycle of 50/50/75/75 I was planning on running 6-oxo and tapering it down over 4 weeks and adding an anti-cort on day 15 of PCT. Will this be sufficient?

I have Nolva on standby but was planning on keeping it for a stronger cycle e.g. s-drol but I can always get more.
It all determines who you ask. Personally, I don't think so. From what I read, it is not required and nolva is just as hepatotoxic.
 

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From what I have seen on the subject I thought it was probably too much too. I'll keep it on hand for another day!
 
EasyEJL

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i'd say nolva not required for halodrol or epistane run solo.
 
msucurt

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Well, after reading and reading, the consensus is to take it. Now, i am still up in the air about it also. I am going very low dose at 20/20/10/10, but would like others to chime in here on this. I think you are going to get more people saying since you have it, go ahead to take it, but not go crazy like 40/40/20/20, etc.

Gains were really good. I recomped very nicely. I probably did a little too much cardio on the hdrol, but i still put on a nice 6-10lbs (im not that big into weights, just an overall recomp was very very evident). I got tons of comments from family and friend, gf, how my arms were bigger,,,my back was wider, etc....lol.

My strength was nuts to say the least. Get ready for some big strength gains. That was very evident for me. I did full body 3x a week, and i was upping the weights fairly easy. I ended up doing 225lbs on front squats for 3x5, fairly easy....just an example. Also was doing 85lb Incl. DB press at 3x8, without flinching....could have went 90lbs im sure. Those are just some examples.

thanks
 
msucurt

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i'd say nolva not required for halodrol or epistane run solo.
Easy, thanks for chiming in. Now that i keep reading and researching, Im not sure i will use nolva anymore. lol. I may just stick with this setup...

PCT: (4weeks)

Stoked(PCS): 4 caps/day
Lean Xtreme: 3/day (start day 15)
6-oxo: tapered down starting in week 3 @ 300/200/100/100ed

 
EasyEJL

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the 20/20/10/10 nolva dosing isn't particularly harmful either, so if it gives you peace of mind its ok :)
 
msucurt

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the 20/20/10/10 nolva dosing isn't particularly harmful either, so if it gives you peace of mind its ok :)
Honestly, what would you do if you had a bottle on hand? Take it now, or wait to use it perhaps for something a little more harsh?
 
EasyEJL

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depends on a lot of variables. how suppressed did you get, how high was your estrogen before cycle, how much body fat do you have, etc. I didn't use it last cycle
 
dmangiarelli

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Easy, thanks for chiming in. Now that i keep reading and researching, Im not sure i will use nolva anymore. lol. I may just stick with this setup...

PCT: (4weeks)

Stoked(PCS): 4 caps/day
Lean Xtreme: 3/day (start day 15)
6-oxo: tapered down starting in week 3 @ 300/200/100/100ed

I would add in some I3C to this myself. Otherwise looks good ...
 
msucurt

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I would add in some I3C to this myself. Otherwise looks good ...
I dont have any I3C on hand. Went to the local health store to get some and it was way overpriced. So i will order some through nutra and start taking it when i get it. Any other options or will this be ok saying i would start it like thursday?

Also, I will be throwing in some ragnarok in the PCT too. Isnt that pretty much kosher?

thanks easy and dman
 

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can someone recommend a single PCT to take

like one bottle or does the PCT from anaboloc extreme is that ok?
 
maurice02

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can someone recommend a single PCT to take

like one bottle or does the PCT from anaboloc extreme is that ok?

depends what you are running. You can't just get a single PCT for everything. It is variable on what you are taking the PCT for.

Sure, there are a lot of basic factors for them, but running h-drol vs superdrol or dbol...well, you get the idea.
 

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can someone recommend a single PCT to take

like one bottle or does the PCT from anaboloc extreme is that ok?
 

jds1978

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I'm going to run 50mg ed of hdrol for a month and 200 mg ed of furazadrol with a similiar pct but novedex xt instead of 6 oxo...wasnt quite sure about using pcs..?seems some ppl do and some dont...
 
Boyders

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So how would oxo look tapered up then back down? 100/200/300/200/100? Or would 4 weeks still suffice at like 200/300/200/100?
 

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no test booster..novedex xt, x lean, milk thistle...maybe pcs
 
crazyfool405

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IDS PCT tabs is all you really need for something like epi and halo.

if you have a serm save it for something more harsh (super, phera, ect)

glad to hear u had a nice recomp from it.
 

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