PCT question for havoc??? clone

[suncloud]

so my friend who is 22 decided to jump into a cycle. He's on American Cellular Labs HMG (2a, 3a Epithio 17a Methyl 17b Hydroxy 5a Etioallocholane ). I'm not a chemist, but it looks distinctly like Havoc with an anti-estrogen at the tail end (etioallocholane). At this point, i would like to say that ACL is not a shady company in my opinion, rather the guys that sell it seem to gloss over any form of PCT, because its "safe", and the guys who buy from their reps don't seem to know about research...

Question is - if you're on cycle, and taking an estro blocker, how much PCT do you really need (again, i'm not a chemist). If you're blocking estro through cycle, does it spike post cycle? I think it should, since test would be suppressed but i'm not an expert and need advice here.

Please, no flames for this post - i'm just trying to do damage control here for a friend - this is NOT MY CYCLE..

I know he'll need a test booster post cycle, milk thistle on cycle (why he doesn't know this is beyond me), and EFA's. I'm lost as to if a AI or SERM post cycle is needed because of the built in anti estrogen. :frustrate

 

[Usf97j4x4]

so my friend who is 22 decided to jump into a cycle. He's on American Cellular Labs HMG (2a, 3a Epithio 17a Methyl 17b Hydroxy 5a Etioallocholane ). I'm not a chemist, but it looks distinctly like Havoc with an anti-estrogen at the tail end (etioallocholane). At this point, i would like to say that ACL is not a shady company in my opinion, rather the guys that sell it seem to gloss over any form of PCT, because its "safe", and the guys who buy from their reps don't seem to know about research...

Question is - if you're on cycle, and taking an estro blocker, how much PCT do you really need (again, i'm not a chemist). If you're blocking estro through cycle, does it spike post cycle? I think it should, since test would be suppressed but i'm not an expert and need advice here.

Please, no flames for this post - i'm just trying to do damage control here for a friend - this is NOT MY CYCLE..

I know he'll need a test booster post cycle, milk thistle on cycle (why he doesn't know this is beyond me), and EFA's. I'm lost as to if a AI or SERM post cycle is needed because of the built in anti estrogen. :frustrate

Looks just like Epistane/Havoc to me... lot of ways to write things. Havoc, firstly, is not safe by any means. Makes of epi clones love to ride this wave and market their products as anti-estrogens and gyno cure alls. All this BS is based on a (old) report about the non methylated version. It is a STEROID and should be treated as a STEROID.

Blocking estrogen on cycle will cause a spike post cycle. Just as suppressing natural testosterone production will also cause a spike post cycle.

PCT is required for any STEROID. As there is no built in anti-estrogen (even it there was my recommendation wouldnt change) your friend MUST run an AI at the very least. I would recommend a strong 6-bromo or ATD product.

Better safe than sorry... no?

 

[suncloud]

thanks for your feedback USF. I was going to recommend a complete PCT as per "pct for dummies" for him, just want to be sure i have enough information to convince him that he's nuts to do a cycle without a PCT already in place.

 

[Usf97j4x4]

thanks for your feedback USF. I was going to recommend a complete PCT as per "pct for dummies" for him, just want to be sure i have enough information to convince him that he's nuts to do a cycle without a PCT already in place.

Havoc/Epi is mild but it WILL cause HPTA suppression.

GL

 

[Trauma1]

so my friend who is 22 decided to jump into a cycle. He's on American Cellular Labs HMG (2a, 3a Epithio 17a Methyl 17b Hydroxy 5a Etioallocholane ). I'm not a chemist, but it looks distinctly like Havoc with an anti-estrogen at the tail end (etioallocholane). At this point, i would like to say that ACL is not a shady company in my opinion, rather the guys that sell it seem to gloss over any form of PCT, because its "safe", and the guys who buy from their reps don't seem to know about research...

Question is - if you're on cycle, and taking an estro blocker, how much PCT do you really need (again, i'm not a chemist). If you're blocking estro through cycle, does it spike post cycle? I think it should, since test would be suppressed but i'm not an expert and need advice here.

Please, no flames for this post - i'm just trying to do damage control here for a friend - this is NOT MY CYCLE..

I know he'll need a test booster post cycle, milk thistle on cycle (why he doesn't know this is beyond me), and EFA's. I'm lost as to if a AI or SERM post cycle is needed because of the built in anti estrogen. :frustrate

Please have your buddy read this:

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Havoc will cause HPTA and estrogen suppression while taking it. However, the degree largely depends on many factors such as overall dosing and length of time taken. Going into pct, the systemic estro levels should be fairly controlled and on the lower side.

I would recommend running the anti-estrogen inversely to the SERM for quickest recovery with this compound. This will help prevent estro rebound down the line.

I'll be adding more to the Havoc Write-Up PCT later tonight. Especially in setting up the PCT.

 

[dmangiarelli]

Havoc/Epi will suppress your test production. Coming off cycle levels of test and estrogen will be lower due to suppressed test which is the substrate for estrogen. THe first thing you need to do do is get your test production kickstarted. So how do you do this? A SERM will help to raise test production by increasing LH production and will control estrogen by blocking it from attaching to certain receptors, mainly in breast tissue. Clomid (clomiphene) is especially good at raising LH levels but not as effective at blocking estrogen receptors. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is better at blocking estrogen receptors but not as good at raising LH. Toremifene is sort of in teh middle a good ER blocker and LH booster as well.

You can also accomplish this with OTC products. I made a writeup here http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/96169-otc-pct-guide.html

THe writeup will clue you in to what you need PCT for and how all the mechanisms work. The principles apply to SERMs too.

 

[thaOrleanyte]

bump....

 

[dsantagati]

Hey doc

Im planning on run my first PH cycle..and among all i chosed RPN HAVOC

This is the way im gonna run it (alongside all the cycle support supplements that i need)

4 weeks 20/30/30/40

Now thats what i was planning for PCT: Nolvadex, Inibit-E (ATD) and ZMA and Animal Stack as a Test Booster..(got some dhea on hand also) I would like to have a suggestion about the dosing of Nolva and the ATD for a 4 week PCT.

Thanks in advance for your Help..i would really like to hear your opinion here...

Regards

Dario