PCT worries, any thoughts?

[RNS]

Hey all, so I have some toremifene but I found some posts regarding questionable quality, and due to some apparently shadey stuff with the marketing of Epistane, I'm finding it hard to trust the company....you can connect the dots. Anyway, if I go off the assumption the torem is bunk or simply underdosed, I'm thinking of just running ATD as a back up plan.
My question is, after a cycle of havoc and 11-oxo will my e levels be "theoretically" high enough to safely dose ATD at 50mg without completely wiping out e? I have read differing reports on shutdown with havoc, but it seems to be relatively light, and obviously 11-oxo won't do much beyond where havoc left me.

I have the proposed cycle to be havoc weeks 1-5, 11-oxo weeks 4-8, toremifene weeks 7-11, and ATD weeks 8-10, but I'm a bit hung up because it all kind of depends on if I can trust this toremifene. Any help is MUCH appreciated.

 

[neoborn]

Links to posts and what shady marketing? Please do share with the class, we are all adults here.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[RNS]

In a post I found on bb.com from a couple months back, Interlocutor mentions torem's quality being questionable:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=115945451&postcount=34

and I found a thread in here from a year ago about somebody feeling nothing from it (which obviously could be like anything else, n=1 and it just didn't work for him), but it still got me thinking

as for the shadey marketing, there was big drama at bb.com (i'll give you a moment to clean up all the food you just spit out of your mouth as I'm sure that came as a complete shocker), about IBE, can be found here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2230941&highlight=epistane

cliff's notes: Epistane appears to be/have been extremely underdosed at some point, and when ran by GC the incorrect MW came out for the compound on the label.

Basically I don't really trust IBE because of this incident, and with a couple posts about questionable torem quality I'm a little worried I may have bunk stuff, ESPECIALLY because of the torem's relation to IBE

 

[neoborn]

I would say:

1. Go with what Int recommends, he usually has some good information and protocols

2. Wow that's a bit of a stretch on the Torm quality. Just so you know that IBE and IR are no longer the same company, either way I'm pretty sure your Torm will be fine. To be honest I could come up with 2 people to say just about anything or justify it. Not really a good example but then again doesn't invalidate the claims either...just saying.

3. I would run this dynamically and go with how you respond. Alot of talk /chatter comes to a screeching halt as soon as the proverbial rubber hits the road. Take your plan and walk it out, adjust as you need to.

4. I would double check with others on the ATD dosage.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[RNS]

thanks for the late responses, I appreciate it. I wasn't aware that they were 2 separate companies now, and to be honest I'm glad cause I really wasn't impressed with how IBE handled themselves through the whole epistane situ on bb.com.
My only real worry is that the torem is complete bunk and the tiny amount of gyno I believe I have now is going to flare up, but after thinking about it more I theoretically should have a decent amount of e after havoc and 11-oxo and I won't need to worry that much about overshooting my dosage of ATD.
My main concern was that if the torem wasn't good I'd have to simply rely on ATD, but I didn't want to run 75mg and crush my e. Pending I have a decent e level afterward I should be able to assess the torem's effectiveness during the 1st week and adjust the ATD accordingly.

Thanks again for the input, it definitely helped and also got my workin through what I want to do/

 

[bassgod272]

your torem is not bunk bro. go with your original PCT plan and all will be well. :cheers:

 

[neoborn]

thanks for the late responses, I appreciate it. I wasn't aware that they were 2 separate companies now, and to be honest I'm glad cause I really wasn't impressed with how IBE handled themselves through the whole epistane situ on bb.com.

My main concern was that if the torem wasn't good I'd have to simply rely on ATD, but I didn't want to run 75mg and crush my e.

To be honest I'm not impressed at all in the way the bb.com mods or most of the threads were going over there. bb.com is and will always be a free for all where people / companies can get flamed non stop by other companies / reps / people on the boards. bb.com also has a larger than fair share of douche's. You will never find the respect, knowledge or friendliness of AM on bb.com.

Epistane was and is a solid product. What is on the label is in the bottle.

Yes, though it is true there are always better ways to handle events like these.

You don't have to kill your E to control gyno you just have to stop large hormonal swings. To gently keep it under control.

 

[RNS]

Yup, bb.com is a lot of bs (and unfortunately is soon to cost 5 bucks less per month than this board ), just need to try to read between the lines. You're completely entitled to your opinion on IBE, all I know is that Patrick Arnold ran a batch of epistane by GC and the incorrect MW came out....aka the bottle did not contain the compound havoc is.

As for killing e to prevent gyno I'm aware of that, in fact I was worrying that I WOULD kill e on accident if I dosed ATD too high. However after thinking about it I feel rather confident that neither compound is too suppressive and I shouldn't be extremely shut down, so I will have a decent amount of e to play with.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it!

 

[dice404]

and unfortunately is soon to cost 5 bucks less per month than this board

I hope you scrolled down and saw that it was an april fools joke. They got me at first too though so don't worry.

 

[RNS]

hahaha, no i didnt, i read it and got pissed and moved on; that's good news

 

[Marsh11]

I ran a PCT with Torem after a Methoxy TST and Mega Trn cycle at the end of last summer and I got nothing from it. Luckily I had Nolva on hand and immediately switched to that. After my cycle I had itchy nips and some pain but once I hit the good old nolva that subsided instantly. Also both chems were from the same company. Perhaps the Torem was bunk or I just dont respond well to it?