Nolvadex For PCT - More Harm Than Good?
- 03-28-2008, 07:16 PM
Nolvadex For PCT - More Harm Than Good?
Effects on the liver: Non-malignant effects:
NOLVADEX has been associated with changes in liver enzyme levels, and on rare occasions, a
spectrum of more severe liver abnormalities including fatty liver, cholestasis, hepatitis and
hepatic necrosis. A few of these serious cases included fatalities. In most reported cases the
relationship to NOLVADEX is uncertain. However, some positive rechallenges and
dechallenges have been reported.
In the NSABP P-1 trial, few grade 3-4 changes in liver function (SGOT, SGPT, bilirubin,
alkaline phosphatase) were observed.
Also, Nolvadex has been shown to lower IGF-1 levels which is tough on a PCT cycle. I just think the OVERUSE of Nolvadex is the problem.
What do you guys think?
- 03-28-2008, 07:20 PM
well honeslty tamox is better for me then clomid. clomid basicly made me a girl.
tamox has elevated my liver values slightly but nothing to be concered about. my pct is usualy 20mg for 4 weeks along with otc T boosters and i recover fine every time no matter how insane my cycle. and yes i get bloodwork every 2 weeks.
interesting tho is that tamoxifen at 20mg will elevate my liver values more then Dianabol dosed anywhere between 50-100 mg. showing either that Dbol is mild or that tamox is harsh.
my take on this is that tamoxifen is being 1- overdosed in people, and 2 it is being used as pct for cycles that do not need it. people think a 4 week cycle will shut them down hard and generaly that is not the case. the body will not give up until about 6 weeks. this is coming from top competitors and a doctor who specialises in chemical monstrosities such as myself.
03-28-2008, 07:28 PM
When I told my doc I was going on cycle and that Tamoxifen was going to be my PCT, she told me she had just recieved an article
saying bad things about the drug. However, since it is a drug for breast cancer treatment in women, you'd have to know if the info
was taken from female cancer patients and however long their treatment is vs. the relatively brief time men use it to come off steroids in order to put the concerns into perspective. I'll ask my doc in 2 weeks when I see her for my follow up work for my current cycle and share what she had to say. Of course, at that time the typical disclaimer BS will be in effect....
03-28-2008, 07:30 PM
I agree with you. Clomid tends to do that to a lot of people. I do think people over use the Nolvadex for PCT. Pat Arnold trumped up this PCT hysteria to sell LOTS of 6OXO which is cool I guess.
03-28-2008, 10:44 PM
I agree that some of these cycles it may not be needed i am guily of this when i ran havoc i used it 40/40/20/20 and i do not think i really needed it but belived what i was told i felt fine i really think i could have got by with PCS and that is what i will run after this h-drol cycle i am on.
BUT ALWAYS HAVE IT ON HAND IN CASE IT IS NEEDED!!!
03-28-2008, 10:54 PM
People ran steroids for about 3 decades without Nolva and things went pretty well. None of the golden age bodybuilders even heard of the concept of PCT. Dan Duchaine (who essentially ruined bodybuilding) introduced Nolva to prevent gyno, but cycles had become much more advanced, longer and esoteric during Duchaines time. For short oral cycles I personally feel that Nolva is complete overkill.
03-28-2008, 11:38 PM
Yeah, then Pat Arnold introduced the PCT hysteria, which isn't a bad thing, but people are fanatics about it. "Dude, you gotta have Nolva if you are going to do a cycle" Especially the people on bb.com. I am not saying that PCT isn't a good idea, but overkill on PCT is not. I recomend a very minimal Formadrol cycle for PCT. 4,3,2,1 cycles are what I think are best, slowly tapering down.
Also, I think the over use of AI's isn't good. We just saw that more isn't better with the 6OXO study where 300mg did about the same thing as the 600mg dose estrone levels went through the roof. ATD is even stronger (by about 100 fold if I remember correctly) and that's why we have a low dose combination of the two along with some natural SERMS.
03-29-2008, 01:33 AM
I have heard that anything higher than 20 mg a day of Tamox has no greater benefit. I would also not want to take Tamox after a heavy oral cycle.
BB.com drives me crazy. 17 year old company reps trying to tell me I have to take Nolva after every cycle. Umm Yeah.
Also LG if you could, I would like to see some info on these natural SERMS in Formadrol.
03-29-2008, 12:30 PM
Great thread! Hey LG and the rest of you. I don't think Nolva is "necessary" at all. I just came off of a Bold/P-Plex/Trena cycle which was about as suppressive as it gets. See my blood work here.
My PCT is totally OTC. Some people are freaking out on the test levels and telling me to immediately start on a SERM. The point of the PCT is to show that you can recover without the use of a SERM and the possible toxicity issues (this has never been shown in testing) that come with using one. People will be able to make a choice. I have gotten some nasty PM's over there telling me how stupid I am for doing this, it's really kind of funny. I have researched this PCT for over a year, I didn't just pull it out of my ass!
Anyways, if this works out I think it will go a long way to shut the "you NEED a SERM bro" crowd down. I fully plan on this working out so there are really no down sides for me. I have two kids and I had a vasectomy so I am not planning to have anymore kids. If the worst happens and I don't recover (which I have discussed with my doctor) I will get either androgel or test cyp so I am really not too worried either way ...
03-29-2008, 01:13 PM
Well props to you being a company repp and actually having the bolts to put one of their (most popular) supps one the line.
I have been over to BB. and looked at your set-up, and while I wouldn't run it (at least until I see your results) it does look well thought out and put together!
Best wishes to you with that dmangiarelli..........
03-29-2008, 01:19 PM
03-29-2008, 01:29 PM
Cool brother your reasults are going to be interesting to say the least. I know alot of people (including myself) are keeping a close eye on your progress and hoping everything comes out well for you and not to mention a less toxic (legal) effective alternative to nolva would be nice!
03-29-2008, 01:37 PM
The issue is that people are hysterical over at bb.com YOU GOTTA TAKE NOLVA MAN. I am not sure what is worse for a young male, slower recovery or decresed IGF-1 levels? I am not downing Nolva for PCT, just providing a balance discussion topic. People over take stuff...you ever dose those liquids? It isn't really scientific even if you are not the typical "more is better" bb.com kid.
We have been sold a "more is better" approach to everything. Some people sell 10 day products if you take what they say to take. I have always said Formadrol is best taken in low doses tapering off. 4,3,2,1 is good or even a 4,3,1,1 schedule is something I think is worthwhile...that might make me sell LESS Formadrol, but I believe small doses are the best. ATD is a strong AI and shouldn't be abused. I have seen bloodwork on ATD and I honestly think cross contamination needs to be considered before we start taking more and more of everything. Just my oppinion.
03-29-2008, 01:47 PM
I haven't used Tamox in a long time - because of the liver issues.
I like torem - seems much more friendly on the liver.
But - I've honestly been going OTC for PCT my last 2 cycles - which were Epi based.
I just need to stop using test boosters that are also anti-estrogen when I'm not in PCT. I have a bad habit of using something like AlphaDrive just for the hell of it (or Fenotest - but that's not an anti-E). I need to take a long break from test boosters in general.
03-29-2008, 01:53 PM
Good point LG, and while I agree with what your trying to convey (also not a fan of ATD) a stand alone pct of a low dosed AI IMO is a terrible idea! (not sure if that's what your recommending here) I love LG overall but honestly brother I have never heard anything good about Formadrol (at least not on this forum) and the one study I remember reading on the main ingredient showed it actually had an affinity for increasing estrogen. Do you have any studies to post showing it's effectiveness?
Again not trying to start trouble, just looking for some info here because if formadrol is in fact a good alternative as I stated I love LG and would be interested in the product.
03-29-2008, 01:55 PM
03-29-2008, 01:57 PM
Well, which ingredient are you refering to? You don't have to agree, that is cool. I am just saying that 20-25mg of ATD and 100mg of 6OXO is a good dose of AI in my oppinion along with SERMS like Ellagic Acid and Daidzein. Formadrol is a combination product, which I think should be noted. It is a SERM like product combined with lesser dosed AI's.
03-29-2008, 02:10 PM
03-29-2008, 02:12 PM
03-29-2008, 02:23 PM
3a-hydroxyetioallochollan-17one is the ingredient I was referring to.
And the way I had it explained to me was; in pct your body is trying to find homeostasis and if your estro is high your body will increase it's test production to try to match it. So blocking estrogen from sensitive areas ie. breast and prostate tissues while letting your body increase it's own natural test production is your best route. Obviously decreasing estro in this theory would limit the test levels your body is trying to achieve by realizing Homeostasis. This is my reasoning for leaving the AI out of pct.
03-29-2008, 02:36 PM
Not how I understand it at all. Your body (females also) have really no ability to produce estrogen naturally. Estrogen is produced from testosterone (even in the overies,but they contain massive amounts of aromatase which turns testosterone into estrogen before it gets out of the overie). Anyway, reducing estrogen is something your body doesn't like, so it creates more testosterone in hopes that aromatase can act on it and become estrogen. So, whoever explained it had it backwards. Reducing estrogen increases testosterone production.
So, blocking both estrogen at the receptor and reducing aromatase, your body thinks it is very low and produces more testosterone for aromatase to act on.
03-29-2008, 02:47 PM
03-29-2008, 03:17 PM
03-29-2008, 03:21 PM
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