pct . . . serm inverse to Ai
- Thread starter billhough
- Start date
Nightwanderer
Well-known member
I honestly don't know what that means, can you elaborate so I can learn? 
Hate4TheWeak
Banned
Yea, ditch the AI!! You won't need it for epi, plus epi acts as a mild AI it self.
billhough
New member
I have looked at several different pcts where people run a serm such as nolva inverse to an Ai such as ATD, for example
week 1: Nolva 40 mg
week 2: Nolva 40 mg
week 3: Nolva 20 mg, ATD 25 mg ED
week 4: Nolva 20 mg, ATD 50 mg ED
week 5: ATD 75 mg ED
week 6: ATD 50 mg ED
week 7: ATD 50 mg ED
week 8: ATD 25 mg ED
I have also seen pcts where there is an abrupt stoppage at 75 mg, just want to get some feedback of what people think of this?
week 1: Nolva 40 mg
week 2: Nolva 40 mg
week 3: Nolva 20 mg, ATD 25 mg ED
week 4: Nolva 20 mg, ATD 50 mg ED
week 5: ATD 75 mg ED
week 6: ATD 50 mg ED
week 7: ATD 50 mg ED
week 8: ATD 25 mg ED
I have also seen pcts where there is an abrupt stoppage at 75 mg, just want to get some feedback of what people think of this?
RenegadeRows
Well-known member
I always taper down my AI but its a matter of preference. The main thing is not to introduce the AI until the 4th or 5th day.
heebs10
Well-known member
I honestly don't know what that means, can you elaborate so I can learn?
running a SERM inverse to an AI means that during your four(or however many) weeks of your PCT, you are going to decrease the dosage of your SERM as you normally would, as for your AI, you would start at a low dose and 'ramp' up the dosage over the span of your PCT.
for example: (x/x/x/x=your dosage week by week: assume we are using nolva for our serm and 6 OXO for our AI)
SERM: 40/30/20/10
AI:300/400/500/600
pretty simple concept really. IMO though, i dont think an AI should be used right after the cycle like in my example, i think an AI should be run the following four weeks after your four weeks of using a serm. i also think the AI should be tapered down each week. my reasoning (some agree and some dont) is i would think this is the best way to avoid estrogen rebound, as some have experienced a few weeks after finishing up their epi PCT, as an example.
so i think it should look more like this:
weeks 1-4=SERM: 40/30/20/10...
weeks 5-8=AI:...500/400/300/200
Last edited:
MuscleBound1337
Active member
IMO, you might as well just drop the ATD altogether.. Just going to dry you out and make your equipment limp
Hate4TheWeak
Banned
Uh, what? Dude in pct the serm blocks estro from the breast tissue. Your body is struggling to reach a natural Homeostasis, If your estro is high your body will raise test production to try to mach it. If you kill All estrogen in your body.......well you see were I'm going with this. Drop the ATD mofo!:cheers:
Nightwanderer
Well-known member
ah, ok. Yeah I'm familiar with the concept, just didn't know the terminology for that particular method. gonna shoot you a PCT PM sometime today...
dmangiarelli
Board Sponsor
I subscribe to this theory as well ...
heebs10
Well-known member
i assume you mean the later of my two examples, right?
how do you feel about the dosage for the 6 oxo, to high, low, right on? also just carious as to which AI is your preference with this method, (assuming its the typical epi cycle) 6 oxo or a different AI?
bpmartyr
Snuggle Club™ mascot
Me too. The latter portion that is. Especially after a non aromatizing compound like Epi.
Hate4TheWeak said:
Not quite. If estro is high you will start to produce less test. Estro is made FROM test in males through aromatase. If estro is low, you will start to produce more test so you have the substrate with which to make more estro.
Problem with AI's in PCT is you already have low estro from the getgo with compounds that shut down your natty test production and, unless they can aromatise, will subsequently cause estro to plummet.
A SERM on the other hand will not directly effect estro but will stimulate the HPTA and, once test & estro begin to rise, ensure that any excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with the breast tissue.
dmangiarelli
Board Sponsor
With the second portion and I run 6-oxo at 4/3/2/1 so that's 400/300/200/100 if you run for 4 weeks or 300/200/100 @ 3 weeks ...
billhough
New member
A SERM on the other hand will not directly effect estro but will stimulate the HPTA and, once test & estro begin to rise, ensure that any excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with the breast tissue.[/QUOTE]
My question, and by no means am I questioning anybody in general, just looking for clarification, is, once the test and estro begin to rise, and the serm is phased out what mechanism ensures that excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with breast tissue? The AI?
My question, and by no means am I questioning anybody in general, just looking for clarification, is, once the test and estro begin to rise, and the serm is phased out what mechanism ensures that excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with breast tissue? The AI?
dmangiarelli
Board Sponsor
My question, and by no means am I questioning anybody in general, just looking for clarification, is, once the test and estro begin to rise, and the serm is phased out what mechanism ensures that excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with breast tissue? The AI?[/QUOTE]
In theory yes. Introducing the AI and ramping it up as you ramp down the SERM should prevent the conversion of test to estrogen. The problem is that when you ramp up and then suddenly stop the AI there is no estrogen control and that is typically when you might see a rebound as the body tries to balance out estrogen and test levels.
heebs10
Well-known member
My question, and by no means am I questioning anybody in general, just looking for clarification, is, once the test and estro begin to rise, and the serm is phased out what mechanism ensures that excess estrogen conversion isn't binding with breast tissue? The AI?[/QUOTE]
serms have very long half lives so even after phasing out the serm it will still be circulating in your body for at least a week or more. once the serm is completely removed from your body, there wont be anything that actually prevents estrogen from binding to breast tissue, but the AI is now going to be phased in which regulates the amount of circulating estrogen. so estorgen may bind to breast tissue but hopefully, with the use of the AI, your estrogen will be in a normal or slightly below normal range so the small amount that dose bind to breast tissue wont cause gyno.
dmangiarelli
Board Sponsor
serms have very long half lives so even after phasing out the serm it will still be circulating in your body for at least a week or more. once the serm is completely removed from your body, there wont be anything that actually prevents estrogen from binding to breast tissue, but the AI is now going to be phased in which regulates the amount of circulating estrogen. so estorgen may bind to breast tissue but hopefully, with the use of the AI, your estrogen will be in a normal or slightly below normal range so the small amount that dose bind to breast tissue wont cause gyno.[/QUOTE]
AI's can also hypersenstize ER's so it is best to taper them off to prevent this from happening. With hypersensitive ER's even a small amount of estrogen can cause a larger effect (rebound gyno).
Hate4TheWeak
Banned
Thanks bro, someone else had to straighten my ass out on that too. I swear someone told me that on here though! Anyways repps...:wave:
heebs10
Well-known member
good point. serms up regulate the estrogen receptors as well.
billhough
New member
In theory yes. Introducing the AI and ramping it up as you ramp down the SERM should prevent the conversion of test to estrogen. The problem is that when you ramp up and then suddenly stop the AI there is no estrogen control and that is typically when you might see a rebound as the body tries to balance out estrogen and test levels.[/QUOTE]
Last question! You mentioned above that introducing the AI and ramping it up, is the ramping up necessary?, or, in theory is it as effective just to introduce the AI (say 400 mg of 6 oxo) after the nolva has been phased out or must it first be ramped up?
Thanks for all the input