[loftus44]

several ph,s past , I generally use novedex xt with proper supporting supps and a test booster(nolva on hand in case) and haven,t had a problem since. would novedex xt and post cycle support be good together or to much?

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by loftus44

several ph,s past , I generally use novedex xt with proper supporting supps and a test booster(nolva on hand in case) and haven,t had a problem since. would novedex xt and post cycle support be good together or to much?

You would be better to run Post Cycle Support and then follow it up with 6-oxo tapered down.

What are you going to cycle?

[stxnas]

The ATD is probably better for a "non-hormonal" cycle. The problem with ATD is that it works very well! When taken at too high of a dose it runs reducing estrogen to a minimum.

I don't think POST Cycle Support with an aromatase inhibitor is too much though...it's just a matter of getting the right one dosed at the appropriate amounts.

[loftus44]

I,ll probably be running havoc with either tren Xtreme or winadrol(orastan A), haven,t made my mind up yet. I also have a bottle of gxl hd, 25 mg halodrol,25 mg phera, would that be to under dosed to run alone later, if so what would stack good ?

[jwdolaniii]

Originally Posted by stxnas

The ATD is probably better for a "non-hormonal" cycle. The problem with ATD is that it works very well! When taken at too high of a dose it runs reducing estrogen to a minimum.

I don't think POST Cycle Support with an aromatase inhibitor is too much though...it's just a matter of getting the right one dosed at the appropriate amounts.

Any recommendations on the right one and dosing schedule?

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by jwdolaniii

Any recommendations on the right one and dosing schedule?

PCS weeks 1-4 4 caps/day
6-oxo weeks 5-8 4/3/2/1

[stxnas]

That would definitely work.

Take 2 caps of POST Cycle Support in the AM and then again in the PM. The 6-oxo is dosed all at once in the with your last meal of the deal.

[loftus44]

what is the difference of how the atd and ai reduce estrogen. just wanted to clarify, and what is AI post cycle support role when taken with either?

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by loftus44

what is the difference of how the atd and ai reduce estrogen. just wanted to clarify, and what is AI post cycle support role when taken with either?

ATD reduces estrogen by attaching to the aromatase enzyme thereby rendering it useless. It is then processed out of the body through metabolism. Since 96% of estrogen in teh male body is made through aromataziation this has a profound effect on the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Estrogen levels are low so through negative feedback the body produces more test to convert to estrogen which it cannot because aromatase is inhibited by the ATD. This can have serious ramifications and is why all teh bottles say not to take the product for longer than 6 weeks.

PCS acts like a SERM in teh presence of estrogen and binds to breast tissue ER's so that estrogen cannot. It thereby controls estrogen which you still need to build muscle, have healthy organ function (i.e. Liver) and keep bones and ligaments and tendons strong. The idea in PCT is to restore homeostasis (the balance of hormones) in the body.

By altering the balance (with ATD or 6-Bromo) you risk an estrogen rebound whereby test is high, estrogen is low so the body will convert test to estrogen to balance out once the AI is stopped, and you have no way to control the estrogen.

[loftus44]

so for my havoc / tren x cycle what would you use, for example, for a perfect pct, knowing there is nolva on hand in case... and is PCS good for more potent stacks? thanks for all your info!

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by loftus44

so for my havoc / tren x cycle what would you use, for example, for a perfect pct, knowing there is nolva on hand in case... and is PCS good for more potent stacks? thanks for all your info!

I just got done with a Bold/P-Plex/Trena Cycle and I am using PCS/Lean Xtreme/SAMe/6-oxo and that's it. I am getting blood work at post cycle (already done) and 6 weeks out. I will post back in here with the results but as far as everything looking okay and "feeling" okay already, it seems to be working ...

[loftus44]

thanks alot for the info, hope all works out. I believe I'll try the PCS with 6 oxo. let me know how the bloodwork works out. good luck!

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by loftus44

thanks alot for the info, hope all works out. I believe I'll try the PCS with 6 oxo. let me know how the bloodwork works out. good luck!

LOL! It's been two weeks since I got my blood work done and I am still waiting. I called the doc's office today and they said that since I was getting test and e levels checked they had to send my blood to a mainland lab cuz they don't do those tests here in Hawaii! WTF??? I guess that's the price of paradise! LOL ...

[sooner999]

I am on a 4 week havoc cycle and plan on the same PCT (PCS, SAMe, tapered down 6 oxo and lean xtreme. How and when woul you dose the lean x, throughout the whole PCT or start mid way?

[stxnas]

Start it at week two.

Did you see Dmang's bloodwork yet?!?

Originally Posted by dmangiarelli

PCT UPDATE - Blood Tests & Final Review

This is my final post on this PCT protocol. You are all free to keep asking questions and I will monitor the thread for that so that I can provide answers. The blood results are back and I will post the relevant numbers from them. All in all I would consider this PCT stack a success. I had some prolactin issues that I should have caught earlier because they developed on cycle. I finally realized what they were in PCT and addressed them with high doses of B-6. I will address toxicity issues with that in my review. Someone stated that without baseline numbers these numbers that I will present are useless. I would not say that but I will say that within 6 months I will be getting another blood test and I will not cycle before that happens. That way I will have some numbers for a baseline assessment of my test numbers. I will post those in here when I get them.

Blood Work Results

I will be scanning and attaching these results tomorrow.
First round 2 days post cycle:

Total Test: 7 (Normal 250-1100) ng/dL
Free Test: 1.9 (Normal 35-155) pg/mL
Estradiol: <20 (Normal 20-75) pg/mL

Second Round 31 days later

Total Test: 422 (Normal 250-1100) ng/dL
Free Test: 50.3 (Normal 35-155) pg/mL
Estradiol: 38 (Normal 20-75) pg/mL

Liver values also normalized as they were high on the first go around.

All in all I would consider this PCT a success. My numbers (although on the low end) are back in the normal ranges and my doctor is satisfied that for my age (I'll be 43 on May 9th) my numbers are pretty normal. He is suggesting taking another blood test within 6 months to determine what my baseline numbers are and at that time we will talk about options if the test is still on the low side. He did say that even though it is on the low end that it is not low enough to consider therapy. I will caveat here that I am not satisfied with my numbers being that low but that I will accept this as proof that in 30 days PCS/I3C/ZMA helped to raise testosterone levels to a "normal" range. This blood work also consisted of one dose of 300 mgs 6-oxo the night before (about 8 pm). The blood test was taken at 5 pm so the 6-oxo should not have influenced the test numbers much.

Final Review

My experience with this protocol after a Bold/P-Plex/Trena cycle that lasted for 8 weeks was successful. The dosages for the PH/DS were the following:
Weeks 1-8 Bold @ 800 mgs
Weeks 1-4 P-Plex 15/30/30/45
Weeks 5-8 Trena 20/30/40/50

PCT included the following products and dosages:
Post Cycle Support 30 days 4 caps/ED
SAMe 3 weeks @ 400 mgs/ED
I3C @ 600 mgs/ED
ZMA @ 3 caps/ED
6-oxo (starting after PCS for 3 weeks) 300/200/100
B-6 (For prolactin issues) 600-800mgs/ED (for 2 weeks)

*The cycle I did was really suppressive and I am not sure if it is because I never fully recovered from a previous Methyl-E cycle that I used only 6-oxo for PCT (didn't do blood work) or if the Bold cycle was really that suppressive. I waited 8 weeks between PCT and the Bold Cycle. Nonetheless, I will find out with the next round of blood work what really happened.

Let's start off with why I consider this PCT successful. I was extremely suppressed on this cycle so to see my levels come back into the "normal" range is a good sign. My doctor was worried that i was so suppressed that there was no way that my test would recover. I was less skeptical. I am not saying that this protocol was the best choice, only that by the standards laid out by the lab that my levels recovered to the "normal" range. DO NOT READ MORE INTO THIS THAN I AM STATING!

This PCT has proven that for me, not using a SERM and recovering in an acceptable amount of time is possible. More PCT's with blood work need to be ran by more members here to further this theory. I encourage anyone that runs a PCT (SERM or Non)to get blood work done. Blood work is the ONLY way to know if you have recovered. I am not saying that this protocol will work 100% for everyone but with more blood work we will be able to prove the viability of Trans-Res as a PCT agent and one that is easily obtainable without the questionable quality (Some SERMs have been found to be underdosed or at least did not work for preventing gyno) or legality (by legality I am referring strictly to the grey area of the law they fall into) of research chems.

I am not advising everyone to run out and by this protocol for PCT. My intent with this log was to show that we need to think more about alternatives to SERMs. I only attempted to show that one can recover in an acceptable amount of time using strictly OTC products for PCT. I believe I have shown that to be true. PCT is a personal choice. It took me a lot of time and reading to determine what was right for me even for this extremely suppressive cycle. I would encourage anyone that is planning to do a cycle and PCT to do the research and determine the best course of PCT for themselves. This log was not intended as a sales pitch for Anabolic Innovations. As I have stated several times throughout this log, I purchased everything I used in this PCT and started the log long before I became a rep. I became a rep because of the log not the other way around.

Now for the good stuff!

Why use Post Cycle Support for PCT?

I wrote up an FAQ and posted it here and I would encourage everyone who has questions about Post Cycle Support to read it. There is a lot of good information in that FAQ. PCS contains a variety of ingredients that were specially formulated for an Epistane Cycle. I believed it could be used for any cycle as a base for an OTC PCT.

Trans-Resveratrol:

There have been numerous studies showing it's effects in the presence of estrogen as an estrogen antagonist in breast tissue. AI does not sponsor the research to say what we want it to say. The research is 100% independent and unbiased. Trans-Res is very promissing in the area of cancer research and as we know that is where Nolva, Clomid and a host of other PCT products have come from.

I3C:

Even though there is considerable controversy over including I3C in PCT I am a fan now. My estradiol levels were decimated by the cycle I did. Using the I3C I believe helped to control the estradiol levels as my test came back. I have to say that the lower end normal levels of estradiol probably are related to the fact that my test is also on the lower end of normal values. Nonetheless, I would include I3C in any future PCT I run. In theory I3C channels out or metabolizes the estrogens out of the body and therefore helps in PCT to control runaway estrogen production. On a side note I3C also helps in the liver to process out toxins and thus strengthens the action of SAMe.

SAMe:

SAMe is used in PCT as a liver detoxifier. After an oral cycle you need to detoxify the liver of the methylated and non-methylated compounds. The liver still has to process the compounds even if they are not methylated. The non-methyls are easier on the liver, however.

ZMA:

ZMA is purported to raise testosterone levels but the studies I found that supported this were mostly sponsored by supplement companies. The first producer of ZMA, SNAC Systems, was founded by Victor Conte (BALCO) and he has a patent pending on the formulation. There were studies done on Washington and UCLA football players that showed increases in total and free testosterone and raised levels of IGF-1.

6-oxo:

I chose 6-oxo over other AI's because there haven't been reported cases of loss of libido using the recommended dosages. Loss of libido has been reported at recommended dosages of AI's containing ATD and 6-Bromo so I tend to stay away from those products for PCT. You are free to chose whichever AI you want ...

B-6:

B-6 in higher dosages can cause numbing of the extremities and some nerve damage as was pointed out by dinoii. I did not experience this and from the published studies that I read these symptoms are reversible when the extreme dosages are stopped.