xtreme1
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I have been told I should be taking a SERM for my PST. Just checking to see what is the fan favorite and get some feedback. I know there are a few so I hope you guys can help. Thanks in advance for your answers.
H-Drol/S-Drol clone.I'd say it really depends on the compound you are cycling.
Clomid>>Toremifene>>Nolvadex
Dont stack those together on your first cycle. In fact never stack those two together. Run the H-drol first and save the s-drol for another time................but i dont think your prepared for a steroid cycle anyway.H-Drol/S-Drol clone.
Check out my posts on other threads. I did my homework and ran my cycle safe. Just could not get a SERM. So I got some Novedex and ordered some Cycle Support.Dont stack those together on your first cycle. In fact never stack those two together. Run the H-drol first and save the s-drol for another time................but i dont think your prepared for a steroid cycle anyway.
My guess would be PST means "post steroid therapy"? Definitely read through the post above, and do some more searches. There's a lot of info on this subject on this board. A SERM is heavily advised for these 2 products.But considering you wrote "PST" I think you need to do A LOT more research before getting yourself into anything. Read the thread posted above thoroughly.
Well a compound less potent. I used Phera Plex and didn't use a serm after and was perfectly fine, as a matter of fact most people who used phera didn't serm. If you did your just being safe and that's perfectly fine but if I was doing something hard I would use a serm.Tamox is standard to what? Not saying it doesn't work, just there are SERMs that kick-start the HPTA better, some with less side effects to boot.
When would you not want to use a SERM?
Holy **** that sucks. I ran my cycle low at 20 mg a day for 4 weeks which is probably why I was safe and ya maybe I should have used a serm but everyone logging on this site didn't use one and said it wasn't necessary. How old was he?I'd personally never take Phera & not serm. The point of serming is getting HPTA - natural test levels back to normal as quick as possible. If you don't there's always a possibility that your natural test could be lower than it should for life being suppressed for too long. I have a close friend who didn't serm after an oral cycle & his natty test levels have been extremely low since. He can't have sex anymore & this was over a year ago.
Novedex XT isn't Nolvadex, they sound similar but aren't the same. To be honest I don't know if you should use a serm for your H-Drol cycle but with all this serm talk now it's probably best to be safe and run it afterwards or hold it in case.So you dont think Novedex xt would be any good for h-drol?
What's to be confused about? Ask and we'll try and make it more clear.Well everyone thanks for the info so far. Now I am more confused than before LOL.
I tend to stick with the safer route. In my anecdotal experience, my AI-only PCTs (before really knowing what I do now) didn't tend to fare too well, and I've always felt better and more "recovered" with SERMs. Also, don't forget the lipid recovery you get with SERMs. AIs tend to actually lower them.Well a compound less potent. I used Phera Plex and didn't use a serm after and was perfectly fine, as a matter of fact most people who used phera didn't serm. If you did your just being safe and that's perfectly fine but if I was doing something hard I would use a serm.
Actually I'm doing a havoc cycle and I was told to use a serm so I have one on hand in case but I think it might be over kill.
As mass is saying above just go with a SERM. To make things easier I am going to say go with toremifene. Despite the degree, it is less toxic, recovers lipid (cholesterol) levels greatly, and tends to bring libido back faster with much lower side effects than the other two.I tend to stick with the safer route. In my anecdotal experience, my AI-only PCTs (before really knowing what I do now) didn't tend to fare too well, and I've always felt better and more "recovered" with SERMs. Also, don't forget the lipid recovery you get with SERMs. AIs tend to actually lower them.
One will do, you don't need both and according to everyone else use torm. I would personally use nolva since it's solid but everyone likes torm and I might even give it a shot one time.Do you think clomid and torm are both needed in a PH cycle or just the torm?
Bro-telligence? Not sure which post you are referring to but toremifene's efficacy is anything but unproven.Most of what has been spewed in this thread is complete bro-telligence based on only anecdotal evidence. If you really have concerns about restoring HPTA with the help of a serm in PCT then use clomid/tamox. These are the only 2 serms actually proven in a study to restore HPTA post exogeneous steroid cycle (and even this study was shaky if I recall).
If you looking for a libido boost and help in the lipid department (likely after SD use), then go with torem. But at this point torem is only popular based on anecdotal evidence and some hypothesis based on womens breast cancer studies.
In terms of what? I wasnt referring specifically to your posts and based on user reports/bloodwork I'm sure torem is great, but as far as actually restoring HPTA its basically speculation until I see some evidence in a controlled study.Bro-telligence? Not sure which post you are referring to but toremifene's efficacy is anything but unproven.
Most of what has been spewed in this thread is complete bro-telligence based on only anecdotal evidence. If you really have concerns about restoring HPTA with the help of a serm in PCT then use clomid/tamox. These are the only 2 serms actually proven in a study to restore HPTA post exogeneous steroid cycle (and even this study was shaky if I recall).
If you looking for a libido boost and help in the lipid department (likely after SD use), then go with torem. But at this point torem is only popular based on anecdotal evidence and some hypothesis based on womens breast cancer studies.
What exactly in my post is wrong?Umm noid Im sorry but you are completely WRONG.
You are right there....but are they relevant to PCT? If you have some by all means shoot.Torem has many studies done on it
Good save, maybe you should go outside the world of AM once an d realize this is by far the most SERM happy recommending board/information source out there. Am I saying that is wrong? No, but I expected nothing less than a response such as this......Maybe before making your second post on these boards youd bother researching on this very site regarding the subject and see all the MULTPLE studies our "brotelligence" is based on.
But do you recommend 60mg's to users for 3 months? I dont see jack about sides mentioned either. User weight, drugs, and cycle length should all be reviewed before recommending a blind dosage. None of which is mentioned....Lake perhaps you have full access?Farmakiotis D, Farmakis C, Rousso D, Kourtis A, Katsikis I, Panidis D. The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia. Fertil Steril. 2007 Apr 3; [Epub ahead of print]
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters. DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study. SETTING: University hospital. PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia. INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility. RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy. CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.
What exactly in my post is wrong?
You are right there....but are they relevant to PCT? If you have some by all means shoot.
Good save, maybe you should go outside the world of AM once an d realize this is by far the most SERM happy recommending board/information source out there. Am I saying that is wrong? No, but I expected nothing less than a response such as this...
Here is an abstract that partially supports your opinion, but it relates to low sperm count and never states improvements on LH:
But do you recommend 60mg's to users for 3 months? I dont see jack about sides mentioned either. User weight, drugs, and cycle length should all be reviewed before recommending a blind dosage. None of which is mentioned....Lake perhaps you have full access?
Here is an actual study dont with clomid/nolva:
http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf
The OP asked "which is the best SERM" frankly there is no answer to that imho. My opinion is useless b/c I only have 4 posts or whatever though.... :fool2:
I agree with your post completely (particularly points in bold). In regards to LH being the only factor, I dont think I stated that, but it is nonetheless one of the many factors.I'll have access tomorrow at the science library. Who said increases in LH were the only factor involved in increasing HPTA output? There are so many things that go into getting the system back on track you can't single it out to one particular thing. I would have to dig again because I haven't looked into this subject in quite some time but there are studies that I have read that explains the way in which SERM's can bring this system back to where it was pre cycle faster. Some work at the pituitary level, some at the gonadal level, and some work at a combination of both.
Don't get me wrong I am big into the studies. I am a doctoral student and I rely heavily on them, but even with the limited information available I much rather be safe than sorry. There is also something to be said about user reports. Whether there is science backing something or not you can't go against user reports. There are so many lurking variables that sometimes you just can't single them out. Heck, pre 1990's no one understood the myostatin gene and couldn't figure out why some, no matter what, would gain muscle so easily. They could have contributed it to something they were exposed to when they were young or something else.
I am glad you did. A forum isn't a forum unless you have someone debating the information with you. At least you did your own homework and questioned things. That is what science is about. Science is not about testing yourself right. It is about trying to test yourself wrong. Create a hypothesis and set out to prove it wrong.Its pretty much an endless argument, only wanted to point out another perspective. Reps
Exactly. Lurking variables play a large part in every day life and they can't be overlooked. Take everything you read with a grain of salt. This is one of the reasons why I stress the lipid improving effects of toremifene over everything else.I have read several studies suggesting that Torem doesnt increase LH output contrary to other serms (clomid comes to mind) but torem in other regards ACTS like clomid (minus the sides) while being a structural relative of tamox....the more I read into it all the more confusing it gets. Like LMD said, theres just too much more to it than simple LH boosting. That can be done WITHOUT a serm... I have found raloxifene to work VERY well for me. after a 19 week injectable. (well first 3 weeks PCT torem, then switched to ralox but as soon as I did I felt 2000 times better, libido and all). This doesnt really prove anything because it could have been an accumulated affect of torem, or it could have been from the ralox.... who knows.
I agree. I am going to try a torem/ralox combo for my next PCT and see how that works....if nothing else torem will benefit lipids and exert selective estrogen modulating benefits, and ralox will do it's part. then again.... combining the two may cause each to have totally different actions in the body... I will see. I am leaning towards using both together for the first week only and then using one for the rest.Exactly. Lurking variables play a large part in every day life and they can't be overlooked. Take everything you read with a grain of salt. This is one of the reasons why I stress the lipid improving effects of toremifene over everything else.
What exactly in my post is wrong?
You are right there....but are they relevant to PCT? If you have some by all means shoot.
Good save, maybe you should go outside the world of AM once an d realize this is by far the most SERM happy recommending board/information source out there. Am I saying that is wrong? No, but I expected nothing less than a response such as this...
Here is an abstract that partially supports your opinion, but it relates to low sperm count and never states improvements on LH:
But do you recommend 60mg's to users for 3 months? I dont see jack about sides mentioned either. User weight, drugs, and cycle length should all be reviewed before recommending a blind dosage. None of which is mentioned....Lake perhaps you have full access?
Here is an actual study dont with clomid/nolva:
http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf
The OP asked "which is the best SERM" frankly there is no answer to that imho. My opinion is useless b/c I only have 4 posts or whatever though.... :fool2:
None of which is mentioned....Lake perhaps you have full access?
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