Best PCT for making muscle gains

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    Best PCT for making muscle gains


    I plan on running a Havoc cycle and I wanted to cut during my post cycle therapy but I did some research and found out that would be a horrible idea and I'd end up losing most of the muscle I gained.

    So during my PCT I want to keep making as much gains as I can. What would be best for not just keeping the gains you made on your PH cycle but also making even more gains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
    I plan on running a Havoc cycle and I wanted to cut during my post cycle therapy but I did some research and found out that would be a horrible idea and I'd end up losing most of the muscle I gained.

    So during my post cycle therapy I want to keep making as much gains as I can. What would be best for not just keeping the gains you made on your PH cycle but also making even more gains
    AndroGenerator will not ONLY restore your natural testosterone levels, it will also produce great MUSCLE MASS & STRENGTH!

    CHeck out www.AndroGenerator.com
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    No offense supreme, but personally, I'd want to see logs before I trusted my balls to a trib/herbal based product. JMO. I could certainly see it as part of, but not a base of a PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilPsychotic View Post
    No offense supreme, but personally, I'd want to see logs before I trusted my balls to a trib/herbal based product. JMO. I could certainly see it as part of, but not a base of a post cycle therapy.
    DOZENS OF LOGS: http://www.supremesportsfitness.com/viewforum.php?f=10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeSE View Post
    Blood work for before cycle and after?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Blood work for before cycle and after?

    Adams
    How many LOGS have you seen bloodwork for Novedex XT or even prescription drugs like Toremifene, Nolvadex or Clomid? I haven't seen any.

    Those logs speak for themselves. However, if you are seeking bloodowork, look no further my friend: Supreme Sports - Contact Us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
    I plan on running a Havoc cycle and I wanted to cut during my post cycle therapy but I did some research and found out that would be a horrible idea and I'd end up losing most of the muscle I gained.

    So during my post cycle therapy I want to keep making as much gains as I can. What would be best for not just keeping the gains you made on your PH cycle but also making even more gains
    To answer your question though, I personally like clomid for my PCT, but alot of other tout Toremifen as their base.

    Couple that with a stack such as:
    RPM/Drive
    MassFX/Hyperdrol
    Activate/6-Bromo

    And any type of cortisol inhibitor and your golden. Gaining is difficult as hell to continue on in PCT, but retaining and solidifying your gains is what you should be focused on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    To answer your question though, I personally like clomid for my post cycle therapy, but alot of other tout Toremifen as their base.

    Couple that with a stack such as:
    RPM/Drive
    MassFX/Hyperdrol
    Activate/6-Bromo

    And any type of cortisol inhibitor and your golden. Gaining is difficult as hell to continue on in PCT, but retaining and solidifying your gains is what you should be focused on here.

    Adams

    Why not add AndroGenerator to your PCT, there are other OTC supps in there? :bb3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeSE View Post
    How many LOGS have you seen bloodwork for Novedex XT or even prescription drugs like Toremifene, Nolvadex or Clomid? I haven't seen any.

    Those logs speak for themselves. However, if you are seeking bloodowork, look nhttp://www.supremesportsfitness.com/sci.htmlo further my friend:
    Look up Designer Supplements Rebound, or ANY of their prior Pro hormones, OR ALRI supplements. Supersoldier threads come to mind for Designers products.

    They are good about showing us what their products do.

    SERMS are used in TRT to try to restart your HPTA, I haven't seen longjack in such protocols.

    Or even further down... HCG, used in hypogonadal men.

    We want blood work, because no one has come on her touting a herbal as complete replacement to a standar PCT protocol, instead most companies KNOW that could potentially put somone on TRT if PCT isnt treated correctly. Instead they so theirs as an ADDITION to a standard PCT protocol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeSE View Post
    Why not add AndroGenerator to your post cycle therapy, there are other OTC supps in there? :bb3:
    That I am not disregarding. In addition to a standard protocol it could very well have a place. Those are some stacks I have commonly used. I cant really suggest something I havent used myself.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    To answer your question though, I personally like clomid for my post cycle therapy, but alot of other tout Toremifen as their base.

    Couple that with a stack such as:
    RPM/Drive
    MassFX/Hyperdrol
    Activate/6-Bromo

    And any type of cortisol inhibitor and your golden. Gaining is difficult as hell to continue on in post cycle therapy, but retaining and solidifying your gains is what you should be focused on here.

    Adams

    X-factor is also a potential in the mix. I tend to lean towards thinking that the combo of x-factor and massFX while keeping cals high could lead toward continued gains in PCT, particularly if you started the x-factor maybe 2-2.5 weeks prior to end of cycle (as it has that "kick in" time) - mostly because neither counts on testosterone for their gains.

    the androgenerator has potential to be there too. Are any of the logs from PCT? I poked around a little there on your forums, didn't notice any that were PCT specific, but i didn't spend a ton of time looking
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupremeSE View Post
    How many LOGS have you seen bloodwork for Novedex XT or even prescription drugs like Toremifene, Nolvadex or Clomid? I haven't seen any.

    Those logs speak for themselves. However, if you are seeking bloodowork, look no further my friend: Supreme Sports - Contact Us
    I do not have to see logs for the efficacy of SERM's and HPTA stimulation, it is scientific fact. All of these Test boosters, ATD and all of the other OTC PCT supplements should only be used after endogenous testosterone production has become normalized again.

    I do not know you or your product but I can tell you that the scientific studies in the link you provided mean absolutely nothing for PCT: http://www.supremesportsfitness.com/sci_a.html

    Too few subjects. None of them were suppressed from AAS, please remember you need endogenous Test to free up if that is what the product is doing. Words like "May Influence" and "Could have an Effect" are not very affirming.

    I do see your product has creatine which may be beneficial post cycle :-)

    This is not meant to bash, it is just that this forum is filled with people that actually believe that this type of product is all they need after ingesting chemicals that have suppressed their endogenous Testosterone production.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    I do not have to see logs for the efficacy of SERM's and HPTA stimulation, it is scientific fact. All of these Test boosters, ATD and all of the other OTC post cycle therapy supplements should only be used after endogenous testosterone production has become normalized again.

    I do not know you or your product but I can tell you that the scientific studies in the link you provided mean absolutely nothing for PCT: http://www.supremesportsfitness.com/sci_a.html

    Too few subjects. None of them were suppressed from AAS, please remember you need endogenous Test to free up if that is what the product is doing. Words like "May Influence" and "Could have an Effect" are not very affirming.

    I do see your product has creatine which may be beneficial post cycle :-)

    This is not meant to bash, it is just that this forum is filled with people that actually believe that this type of product is all they need after ingesting chemicals that have suppressed their endogenous Testosterone production.
    Oh Johnny, how your posts and bug eyed cartman has been missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    To answer your question though, I personally like clomid for my post cycle therapy, but alot of other tout Toremifen as their base.

    Couple that with a stack such as:
    RPM/Drive
    MassFX/Hyperdrol
    Activate/6-Bromo

    And any type of cortisol inhibitor and your golden. Gaining is difficult as hell to continue on in PCT, but retaining and solidifying your gains is what you should be focused on here.

    Adams
    Thanks.

    So you think the AX ultimate cycle would be good to run because you mentioned hyperdrol and mass fx, and then retain 2 would be the cortisol blocker.

    But how come making gains during PTC is difficult as hell ? Obviously I don't expect to be making the same gains that I would be making during the cycle, but good gains none the less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
    Thanks.

    So you think the AX ultimate cycle would be good to run because you mentioned hyperdrol and mass fx, and then retain 2 would be the cortisol blocker.

    But how come making gains during PTC is difficult as hell ? Obviously I don't expect to be making the same gains that I would be making during the cycle, but good gains none the less.
    For the sheer fact that when you come off anabolics, your natural test production is essential zilch. So your body goes into catabolism. The idea of PCT is to restart your own production as quickly as possible. More or less to hold on to what you did gain. Until your body is producing again, the environment sucks for gains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
    Thanks.

    So you think the AX ultimate cycle would be good to run because you mentioned hyperdrol and mass fx, and then retain 2 would be the cortisol blocker.

    But how come making gains during PTC is difficult as hell ? Obviously I don't expect to be making the same gains that I would be making during the cycle, but good gains none the less.
    And yes the Ultimate cycle is great for what you are looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
    But how come making gains during PTC is difficult as hell ? Obviously I don't expect to be making the same gains that I would be making during the cycle, but good gains none the less.
    Because on cycle you have been putting exogenous hormones which make you anabolic (anti-catabolic) and then your not. Follow?

    There is a book by a guy named Author L Rea. "Building the Perfect Beast" find it and read it. Here is an excerpt that is pertinent.

    PTOR and Homeostasis
    The body normally maintains weight and size of all cellular structures through
    homeostasis (assuming that our discussion focus is our protein synthesis rate/PTOR).
    The body maintains homeostasis or balance by both building and destroying an equal
    amount of protein based tissue daily. In fact, most research states that the body both
    gains and loses protein bases tissue at a rate of bodyweight multiplied by 1.818
    expressed in grams daily. So a 200 LB bodybuilder gains and loses 363.3 grams of
    protein bases tissue daily; 200 LBS x 1.818 = 363.3 grams. So a 200 LB bodybuilder
    has a PTOR of 363.3 grams.
    Homeostasis is controlled by hormones and hormone-like substances. Some are
    anabolic and create a state of protein synthesis and growth, while others are catabolic
    and create a state of protein destruction or waste. When chemical/hormone levels are
    40
    balanced, or equal in Action/Reaction, there is a state of balance and no change we
    call homeostasis. If you do not get this yet, do not worry. It is explained and referred
    to multiple times throughout this book. This is due to the fact that without
    understanding of this fact, maximum progress is dwarfed. Understanding all details
    of Frank's story is paramount.
    To increase protein based tissue mass (Like uh, muscle) we must alter the ratio
    of "protein synthesis/protein wasting in favour of net total protein mass increase. This
    means triggering either anabolism (protein synthesis) in excess of catabolism (protein
    wasting) or decreasing protein wasting. Any substance that decreases the catabolic
    side of this ratio is considered anti-catabolic or protein sparing.
    If we could increase the anabolic side of this ratio 100% without altering the
    catabolic side, our 200 LB bodybuilder would realize a daily net increase in protein
    based tissue of 363.3 grams. If we decreased the catabolic side of the ratio 100% the
    result would be the same. Many chemical muscle enhancement substances possess
    both anabolic and anti-catabolic qualities in carious ratios.
    The goal of Frank's Max Androgen Phases was to stimulate protein synthesis on
    multiple levels through multiple metabolic pathways. By stimulating the muscle cell
    androgen receptor-sites, we triggered cellular protein synthesis signals. By inhibiting
    cortisol receptor-sites, we decreased catabolism.
    Also, by inducing a very high androgenic environment we allowed the
    musculature to significantly increase weight (strength) and work-load capacity. This
    was quite synergistic: We were able to train muscle more intensely. By increasing
    protein synthesis and decreasing protein wasting we were able to quickly repair the
    damage induced. With adequate macronutrient intake, we allowed for super over
    compensation or adaptation. The result was more muscle mass to carry greater workloads.
    This was an adaptive process due to Action/Reaction Factors.
    Unfortunately, the body realized we had altered homeostasis and the PTOR all
    to quickly. The body began to react to our anabolic/androgenic steroid (AAS) induced
    alteration after two to three weeks and began its own catabolic counter measures as a
    means of re-establishing homeostasis. To do this the body stepped-up production of
    cortisol a bit and estrogen as well. Since estrogen triggers a negative feed-back loop
    that induces HPTA (Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Testes/Axis) inhibition, the result was
    little or no endogenous testosterone synthesis.
    Cortisol is a catabolic hormone that triggers cortisol receptor-sites. This results
    in protein wasting. If an AAS protocol ran too long, circulatory cortisol levels became
    elevated to a point where they equaled circulatory androgen activity even from
    exogenous sources. The result was homeostasis again. When the AAS protocol was
    discontinued and circulatory androgen levels decreased, the elevated cortisol levels
    overwhelmed the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of protein wasting. The result was
    41
    the loss of most, if not all, lean mass tissue gains induced by the AAS protocol. Which
    sucked! We had to exit before this could happen.
    *l have (and will again) explained the effects of elevated estrogen levels postcycle
    or after AAS discontinuance.
    To further aggravate this post-cycle catabolic situation from long AAS
    protocols, the HPTA was suppressed and natural or endogenous androgen production
    was on girl-status. This allowed still existing elevated cortisol and estrogen levels to
    remain unchecked. (Which should cause testes challenged readers to say "yikes" in a
    high pitched voice) But this was all so unnecessary and no male needs "raisin
    syndrome".
    But on the plus side, shaving would be much easier as would singing those old
    girl-band song of the past. Again, we had to exit the AAS protocol before this can
    occur.
    First things first: The Max Androgen Phases constructed for Frank were
    intended as a means of altering the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of net protein
    mass increase on a very significant level. (I do like that word "significant") To do this
    Frank needed a plan that took into account Action/Reaction Factors so that he could
    keep much more AAS induced muscle mass gains post-cycle to build further upon as
    we progressed.
    "Okay, we know the body adapts by reaction to AAS beginning after 2-3
    weeks. We know that some AAS aromatize to estrogen which needs to be checked
    and eliminated before we allow you to exit your AAS protocol, Frank. But we also
    know estrogen levels can actually enhance AAS results by several pathways
    including increased GH/IGF-1 production and increased muscle glycogen
    synthesis. We also know any androgenic induced muscle mass gains not solidified into
    high quality lean muscle tissue by a high anabolic environment will be lost quickly
    post-cycle. There is only one more main factor to consider. "Support networks".
    Think, Frank. Think!
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    The body maintains homeostasis or balance by both building and destroying an equal amount of protein based tissue daily. In fact, most research states that the body both gains and loses protein bases tissue at a rate of bodyweight multiplied by 1.818 expressed in grams daily. So a 200 LB bodybuilder gains and loses 363.3 grams of protein bases tissue daily; 200 LBS x 1.818 = 363.3 grams. So a 200 LB bodybuilder has a PTOR of 363.3 grams.
    I'd like to hear more about where those numbers come from, thats more than 2lbs of muscle which seems pretty unrealistic (muscle tissue is 160g of protein). that 200lb bodybuilder looses 50lbs to skeleton, call it 20lbs to fat @ 10%, and I dunno what to other organs, blood is 15lbs itself , so for the sake of the argument 100lbs of muscle (which is probably much more like 60lbs but whatever). So at 2lbs turnover thats 2% turnover a day in muscle tissue?
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    Protein based tissue.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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    so you think thats total grams of tissue lost not grams of protein then? makes more sense that way, its less than a lb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    so you think thats total grams of tissue lost not grams of protein then? makes more sense that way, its less than a lb.
    It would make sense. Considering that tissue can be considered a storage form of protein. Upon metabolism of the tissue to amino acids water would be released/lost since it is part of the tissue also.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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    yeah, for a second it freaked me out
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