I've tried searching but couldn't find a definitive answer.
I read Thesinners guide to post cycle therapy, and in the end it was said that "Havoc" was just an anti AI.
I'm completely confused now. So, my question is, would it be a good idea to run a post cycle therapy after finishing a bottle of Havoc? If so, would I run the procedures that Thesinner laid out in his thread?
I've tried searching but couldn't find a definitive answer.
I read Thesinners guide to post cycle therapy, and in the end it was said that "Havoc" was just an anti AI.
I'm completely confused now. So, my question is, would it be a good idea to run a post cycle therapy after finishing a bottle of Havoc? If so, would I run the procedures that Thesinner laid out in his thread?
Yes you NEED to run pct after a havoc cycle!!!!!!!!
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
I should follow the protocol that he outlined then?
All you really NEED is a serm. All the other stuff just helps. Get a serm!
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
Yes I agree with Trip! Get a serm at the very least.
.
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:
Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.
1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc
Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm
You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem
I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better
5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).
All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.
With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.
Things To Note
1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!
2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT
When I bought Havoc, the dude I got it from made me buy the Liv52, which I have been taking the whole time on Havoc and will be taking thereafter, and probably will continue to always take it as I think a healthy liver is important.
He also made me buy "Novedex XT" Is that a SERM?
Last edited by Emerge; 02-20-2008 at 10:16 PM.
Reason: Broke a Rule I guess
When I bought Havoc, the dude I got it from made me buy the Liv52, which I have been taking the whole time on Havoc and will be taking thereafter, and probably will continue to always take it as I think a healthy liver is important.
When I bought Havoc, the dude I got it from made me buy the Liv52, which I have been taking the whole time on Havoc and will be taking thereafter, and probably will continue to always take it as I think a healthy liver is important.
He also made me buy "Novedex XT" Is that a SERM?
Here is a website on it:
Delete that link bro........no posting to sites other that "the golden" ....Nutraplanet, our board sponsor!!!
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
That is unacceptable, my girlfriend would flip out! This sucks! Someone save me!
1. how heavy are you, and which havoc protocol did you use/plan to use (dosage/duration)?
2. many people hate ATD because it can easily kill libido if dosed even a little bit to high, as it is extremely effective in the aromatase in the brain (exactly what we want from a post cycle therapy product), and apparently also has some binding affinity to the AR in the brain, which may also contribute to libido issues (by blocking test from binding).
3. the dosing recommendation of 75mg/daily is IMHO to much for prolonged duration for most people of average weight or lighter, and should thusly not be used longer than a few days by most. if you experience loss of libido on ATD, immediately drop the dose by a notch (usually from 75mg to 50mg is fine, though some report libido issues even at 50mg). if you are able to find/hit your "sweet spot" with ATD, it can be a very fine standalone product or adjunct to post cycle therapy (have used it as both). a protocol such as 50/50/25/25/25EOD may be what works for you (though probably debatable).
it's main redeeming characteristic is it's easy availability and extremely low cost: http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...d-90-caps.html (which makes the Novedex XT look pretty pricey in comparison). i've seen bulk ATD powder as low as 3$/gram, but frankly i don't think it's worth the hassle at such low cost per capped bottle.
4. if you use ATD, or any other AI, you should IMHO always taper down the usage over time.
5. since ATD is pretty controversial (though successfully used by many), you should be aware that there are a few other AIs available, such as 6-OXO http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...e-90-caps.html or Formestane (which generally is used transdermally), as well as some "research" or prescription AIs like Letrozole (Femara), Anastrozole (Arimidex - the one i would favour) and Aromasin. one AI currently found in many test boosters is 6-bromo, which exists in 2 isomers (most products are mixed) with different properties. i've currently started to use this in PCT as adjunct to low-dosed nolva, but am undecided as of yet. i've tried this as standalone before, but didn't really like it at that time. see: http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...t-90-caps.html
6. the best and IMHO still safest option, as always, is to use a SERM (in order of my personal preference):
however, those also have their drawbacks (e.g. IGF-1 suppression, shared with most AIs (but not Letro?)), SHBG raise, etc.). there are some points of view considering those drugs at the usually recommended doses to be overkill for a light Havoc cycle.
personally, i would (and do) always use a SERM (though possibly at adjusted dose) with anything stronger (including Havoc) than a mild JW, 11-OXO or Fura cycle. IMHO if it's strong enough to possibly make your hair fall out, give back pumps, and raise your blood pressure to nosebleed levels, use a SERM! simple as that.
8. about every AI and even SERM can affect your libido negatively, especially if dosed high enough. drop the dose if this happens. also have some cialis on hand, and possibly some cabergoline (sogilen or cabaser is cheapest, if you can/want to use this). this is not only superior protection against prolactin gyno / nipple issues, but also great for sex (those who haven't used it: try it!). you only need about 1/2 tab of this every 3-4 days. i prefer cialis (or generics) to OTC stuff like Aspire36 or somesuch as it seems to have much less sides (stuffy nose, headaches, hangover feeling) as compared to effect for me.
I must admit I have used Sustain Alpha with good bounce back. Recovered nicely from my 8 week pulse cycle of Epidrol.
@INT - How about Nolva vs Torem, what are the major diffs if any?
countless, lol. please see my update in the thread in torm toxicity in the articles section. basically it seems to be less toxic overall, even beneficial for alcohol induced liver damage, less hepatotoxic (as measured in - reversible - fatty liver outcomes of 30% tamo vs. 7% torm), non-carcinogenic, more effective in raising test, lowers serum level estradiol, lowers prolactin over time, better on lipids, no change in liver enzyme levels, better on bone density, etc. etc. most comparison studies seem to prefer torm over tamo concerning most parameters.
on some parameters (ocular damage) it seems about equal.
the main issue with torm seems to be bad feedback/rep ("didn't work for me", "horrible sides") because of bunk, over- or underdosed research chems, or simple overdosing (like 120/90/60/30 may IMHO already be to much for lighter users, especially since doses of up to 300mg have been shown to elicit no better results than 60mg).
if you have access to pharmaceutical/prescription grade torm (Fareston), i'd take that over nolva any time of the day! no doubt here.
. 
dance right around those queer rules 
