Probably A Stupid Question (So Forgive Me)
- 02-20-2008, 01:55 PM
Probably A Stupid Question (So Forgive Me)
I've tried searching but couldn't find a definitive answer.
I read Thesinners guide to post cycle therapy, and in the end it was said that "Havoc" was just an anti AI.
I'm completely confused now. So, my question is, would it be a good idea to run a post cycle therapy after finishing a bottle of Havoc? If so, would I run the procedures that Thesinner laid out in his thread?
- 02-20-2008, 01:57 PM
- 02-20-2008, 02:02 PM
I should follow the protocol that he outlined then?
02-20-2008, 02:18 PM
02-20-2008, 02:22 PM
Yes I agree with Trip! Get a serm at the very least.
02-20-2008, 02:40 PM
02-20-2008, 03:18 PM
I don't even know how to get a hold of one.
02-20-2008, 03:54 PM
02-20-2008, 03:57 PM
02-20-2008, 06:38 PM
No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
SERM + P.C.T Guide
Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:
Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.
1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc
Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm
You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem
Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday
I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better
2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.
3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.
4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol
5. Test Booster - Good reviews or I have used: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).
NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide
1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended)
2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.
3. AI - Formestane(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.
4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol
5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).
All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.
With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.
Things To Note
1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!
2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT
3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums
4. Real Gynomastia Before & After's:
5. Love your Liver!
02-20-2008, 09:58 PM
When I bought Havoc, the dude I got it from made me buy the Liv52, which I have been taking the whole time on Havoc and will be taking thereafter, and probably will continue to always take it as I think a healthy liver is important.
He also made me buy "Novedex XT" Is that a SERM?
Last edited by Emerge; 02-20-2008 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Broke a Rule I guess
02-20-2008, 10:03 PM
02-20-2008, 10:05 PM
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
02-20-2008, 10:18 PM
02-20-2008, 10:19 PM
02-20-2008, 10:30 PM
That is unacceptable, my girlfriend would flip out! This sucks! Someone save me!
02-21-2008, 09:41 AM
2. many people hate ATD because it can easily kill libido if dosed even a little bit to high, as it is extremely effective in the aromatase in the brain (exactly what we want from a post cycle therapy product), and apparently also has some binding affinity to the AR in the brain, which may also contribute to libido issues (by blocking test from binding).
3. the dosing recommendation of 75mg/daily is IMHO to much for prolonged duration for most people of average weight or lighter, and should thusly not be used longer than a few days by most. if you experience loss of libido on ATD, immediately drop the dose by a notch (usually from 75mg to 50mg is fine, though some report libido issues even at 50mg). if you are able to find/hit your "sweet spot" with ATD, it can be a very fine standalone product or adjunct to post cycle therapy (have used it as both). a protocol such as 50/50/25/25/25EOD may be what works for you (though probably debatable).
it's main redeeming characteristic is it's easy availability and extremely low cost: http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...d-90-caps.html (which makes the Novedex XT look pretty pricey in comparison). i've seen bulk ATD powder as low as 3$/gram, but frankly i don't think it's worth the hassle at such low cost per capped bottle.
4. if you use ATD, or any other AI, you should IMHO always taper down the usage over time.
5. since ATD is pretty controversial (though successfully used by many), you should be aware that there are a few other AIs available, such as 6-OXO http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...e-90-caps.html or Formestane (which generally is used transdermally), as well as some "research" or prescription AIs like Letrozole (Femara), Anastrozole (Arimidex - the one i would favour) and Aromasin. one AI currently found in many test boosters is 6-bromo, which exists in 2 isomers (most products are mixed) with different properties. i've currently started to use this in PCT as adjunct to low-dosed nolva, but am undecided as of yet. i've tried this as standalone before, but didn't really like it at that time. see: http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...t-90-caps.html
6. the best and IMHO still safest option, as always, is to use a SERM (in order of my personal preference):
however, those also have their drawbacks (e.g. IGF-1 suppression, shared with most AIs (but not Letro?)), SHBG raise, etc.). there are some points of view considering those drugs at the usually recommended doses to be overkill for a light Havoc cycle.
personally, i would (and do) always use a SERM (though possibly at adjusted dose) with anything stronger (including Havoc) than a mild JW, 11-OXO or Fura cycle. IMHO if it's strong enough to possibly make your hair fall out, give back pumps, and raise your blood pressure to nosebleed levels, use a SERM! simple as that.
7. if you feel particularly adventurous, you may rely on the product from Anabolic Innovations, "Post Cycle Support": http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...-120-caps.html - which is a pretty innovative approach. personally, i'm waiting for more feedback/bloodwork from that. same for other trans-res products such as Dermacrine Sustain http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...in-7-5-oz.html or Sustain Alpha http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...ha-7-5-oz.html
since those products are pretty recent additions to the PCT arsenal many more cautious users prefer to combine them with traditional SERMs or AIs.
8. about every AI and even SERM can affect your libido negatively, especially if dosed high enough. drop the dose if this happens. also have some cialis on hand, and possibly some cabergoline (sogilen or cabaser is cheapest, if you can/want to use this). this is not only superior protection against prolactin gyno / nipple issues, but also great for sex (those who haven't used it: try it!). you only need about 1/2 tab of this every 3-4 days. i prefer cialis (or generics) to OTC stuff like Aspire36 or somesuch as it seems to have much less sides (stuffy nose, headaches, hangover feeling) as compared to effect for me.
02-21-2008, 10:35 AM
I must admit I have used Sustain Alpha with good bounce back. Recovered nicely from my 8 week pulse cycle of Epidrol.
@INT - How about Nolva vs Torem, what are the major diffs if any?
02-21-2008, 10:42 AM
At leas get some Post Cycel Support from Annabolic Innovations. Better then nothing!
02-21-2008, 10:45 AM
on some parameters (ocular damage) it seems about equal.
the main issue with torm seems to be bad feedback/rep ("didn't work for me", "horrible sides") because of bunk, over- or underdosed research chems, or simple overdosing (like 120/90/60/30 may IMHO already be to much for lighter users, especially since doses of up to 300mg have been shown to elicit no better results than 60mg).
if you have access to pharmaceutical/prescription grade torm (Fareston), i'd take that over nolva any time of the day! no doubt here.
02-21-2008, 11:32 AM
The reason I ask this is because I have seen much information on resolving gyno problems with Nolva than Torem. If gyno were to show up mid cycle would you run it low dose or ramp up like you would Nolva to resolve the issue?
02-21-2008, 01:41 PM
I'm 181 right now. I took 20 mgs for 5 weeks and 30mg for the last week. So then, it would be safe to take Novedex then? Instead of an AI?
1. SERM - Nolvadex
2. Cycle Support - Liv52
3. AI - Novedex
4. Anti-Cort -Retain 2
5. Test Booster - And then this "Drive" http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...-110-caps.html
Would all of that make a formidable PCT stack?
02-21-2008, 03:18 PM
02-22-2008, 04:01 AM
2. what to use would strongly depend on the compounds used, IMHO. i'll only comment regarding short-duration oral (usually non aromatizing/methyls) cycles.
3. IMHO, very very often people may mistake prolactin with estrogen issues. the first thing i'd do (which i actually do, in fact) is to take 0.5mg of cabergoline if i think i may develop issues (itchy nipples/chest). i'd guess a lot of people would be surprised how that'd clear up their problem within a few hours, with the beneficial effect lasting for 2-4 days. you can fight estrogen as much as you want (especially if it's actually already low and/or you're talking about direct estrogenic effects of certain compounds such as oxymetholone or DMT). if you're still swimming in prolactin you're still at risk from any estrogen fart or oscillation, IMHO.
4. i am not really convinced of ramp-up protocols for SERMs (see the half-life issues). many people seem to think that the dose they take is the effective one (as would be with short half-life compounds as many AIs), and not what stays in their body for many days afterwards - especially considering possible drug-drug interactions and extended hal-life of SERMs if combined with steroids (speculative). i'd just run (and have done this) the SERM i have on hand at moderate/low dose for a few days (tamo at 20, torm at 60, ralo at 60, clomid at 50). so far i had no problems with this (note that this may not be applicable to long cycles with long acting aromatizing compounds (test) or for very estrogenic compounds (oxymetholone)). i'd only increase dose if symptoms would not alleviate (if combined with the cabergoline) quickly (i.e. after 2-3 days).
also in your writeup you state:
do you have any links/sources for this? given the long half-life of SERMs, anything which makes "boom" seems somewhat unlikely there. compare, for example:There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!
Effects of raloxifene on gonadotrophins, sex hormo...[Eur J Endocrinol. 2004] - PubMed Result
with:Raloxifene significantly increased serum concentrations of LH and FSH (by 29% and 21%), total testosterone (20%), free testosterone (16%) and bioavailable testosterone (not bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG; 20%). In parallel with testosterone, 17 beta-oestradiol also increased by 21%. SHBG increased by 7%. Total cholesterol (TChol) decreased significantly, from 5.7 to 5.5 mmol/l (P=0.03). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-c) and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-c) showed a trend to decrease.
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men wit...[J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004] - PubMed Result
sure, application of such results to our community is always frought with difficulties, but at east the cohort seems similar enough for a comparison.Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily; group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly; and group 3: placebo daily. Mean bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 to 207 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 to 178 ng/dl in group 2. Total testosterone levels increased from 343 to 572 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 to 520 ng/dl in group 2. Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 to 17 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 to 17 pg/ml in group 2. Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 to 7.9 U/liter and from 4.1 to 7.2 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively.
if you look at this comparison, several things are striking:
1. the arimidex (AI) raised test MUCH more than the ralo (SERM) (167% vs. 20%)
2. the arimidex (AI) lowered estradiol significantly (-38%), whereas the ralo (SERM) raised it (21%).
those results may be typical. one SERM exception is torm, which actually lowers serum estradiol (another reason i prefer it to the others). what we also don't see is what happens if we combine both, especially after cessation.
the issue is therefore probably NOT simply that SERM raise test so much that there is a possible estrogen rebound after cessation. they actually do not seem to be that effective for this, as compared to an AI. the issue MIGHT be that most SERMs may actually rise serum level estrogen during use (possibly due to increasing test and not blocking aromatase). so it's probably more a question of which does what in combining AI and SERM, and misplaced timing (especially considering half-life issues) when combining these, in conjunction with possible overlooked prolactin issues, and not so simple as this... "boom" explanation.
an example question would be: do we get delayed gyno reports also from torm users (non-bunk)?
we have to be very careful not to make the wrong conclusions from available data, which could possibly lead to false measures, and be thusly detrimental to our health.
02-22-2008, 11:01 AM
02-22-2008, 12:56 PM
02-24-2008, 07:54 PM
4 caps for first week
3 caps 2nd week
2 caps 3rd week
1 cap last week
Is that appropriate?
02-27-2008, 03:43 PM
Bump for an answer. Also I just got my Nolva (Tamoxifen Citrate) but it's in a dropper bottle. It says "25mg/ml 60 ml" Does that mean each dropper full has 25mg in it?
02-27-2008, 05:13 PM
02-27-2008, 09:28 PM
So take 40 all at once, or split up in doses?
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