Tamox, torem, or clomid?

[nosnmiveins]

which would be best to have on hand for a havoc cycle? the place i want to purchase from is out of torem and tamox for the time being but they have clomid at 60ml, 3000mg's total

...get clomid or wait for either tamox or torem?

 

[EasyEJL]

wait

 

[nosnmiveins]

k, thats what i figured, my cycle wont be for a couple months so i have some time

 

[hurdlemaker]

Id try the clomid. Ive used torem and tamox, im about to use clomid for my post... Ive had a lot of people that I trust say that clomid is the way to go.

 

[CryingEmo]

Currently using torem + tamox.

 

[nosnmiveins]

Currently using torem + tamox.

what are the benefits of that?...are u half dosing each?

 

[Ziquor]

This is like comparing ibuprofin & tylenol. They do the same things in the long run but with slightly different results as they're all extremely similar compounds. I guess it depends on what your after. I understand that your body needs some estrogen to recover properly & build tissue & muscle optimally. From the studies I seen Clomid reduces estrogen on average by about 65%. Tamox/Nolva reduces Estro by ~ 85% and Torem reduces Estro by about 95% but can basically eliminate it fully if taken in a higher dose (this isn't recommended by any means as your joints will suffer severely). Tamox/Nolva is my overall choice because it's the cheapest for (1) and for (2) it's the only SERM which has been proven to reduce cholesterol by very high amounts just as lipids (plavix, zocor) do.

 

[nosnmiveins]

This is like comparing ibuprofin & tylenol. They do the same things in the long run but with slightly different results as they're all extremely similar compounds. I guess it depends on what your after. I understand that your body needs some estrogen to recover properly & build tissue & muscle optimally. From the studies I seen Clomid reduces estrogen on average by about 65%. Tamox/Nolva reduces Estro by ~ 85% and Torem reduces Estro by about 95% but can basically eliminate it fully if taken in a higher dose (this isn't recommended by any means as your joints will suffer severely). Tamox/Nolva is my overall choice because it's the cheapest for (1) and for (2) it's the only SERM which has been proven to reduce cholesterol by very high amounts just as lipids (plavix, zocor) do.

awesome, good to know, guess il wait till nolva is back in

repped!

 

[Ziquor]

I have Nolva stocked up from before & from the many logs I been in it's sufficient for mostly any PH & gear. I was considering getting some Torem in case I ever run my bottle of M-Drol (Super) just to be safe. I heard so many delayed gyno stories it's scary.

 

[nosnmiveins]

i have the next 3 cycles planned out, lol

First - Havoc
Second - Havoc/propadrol
Third - Mdrol

i havent even done my first and im already getting excited about the future...

 

[Ziquor]

i have the next 3 cycles planned out, lol

First - Havoc
Second - Havoc/propadrol
Third - Mdrol

i havent even done my first and im already getting excited about the future...

This is exactly where I am, lol. I stockpiled a few PH's & I been getting advice for my 3rd cycle with my 1st coming in a few days. Nothing wrong with too much research IMO.

 

[nosnmiveins]

This is exactly where I am, lol. I stockpiled a few PH's & I been getting advice for my 3rd cycle with my 1st coming in a few days. Nothing wrong with too much research IMO.

i agree

 

[Trauma1]

i have the next 3 cycles planned out, lol

First - Havoc
Second - Havoc/propadrol
Third - Mdrol

i havent even done my first and im already getting excited about the future...

I like number 2 . Personally torem works VERY well for recovery. I'd stick with either the torem or tamox myself.

 

[bound]

Isn't Torem supposed to be much less harsh on the liver than Clomid or Nolva? Or am I just remembering imaginary things again?:blink:

 

[EasyEJL]

"supposed" to be. Actually not sure if its less than clomid, but less than nolva. At reasonable doses, none of them are that bad tho, nolva @ 20mg is less damaging than superdrol @ 20 the clinical studies i've seen about liver damage and these is on long term use (6 months +)for breast cancer too, not 4 weeks. that was basically the point of each new generation of SERMs, to make the next generation as or more effective while reducing side effects.

 

[Hyde12]

This is like comparing ibuprofin & tylenol. They do the same things in the long run but with slightly different results as they're all extremely similar compounds. I guess it depends on what your after. I understand that your body needs some estrogen to recover properly & build tissue & muscle optimally. From the studies I seen Clomid reduces estrogen on average by about 65%. Tamox/Nolva reduces Estro by ~ 85% and Torem reduces Estro by about 95% but can basically eliminate it fully if taken in a higher dose (this isn't recommended by any means as your joints will suffer severely). Tamox/Nolva is my overall choice because it's the cheapest for (1) and for (2) it's the only SERM which has been proven to reduce cholesterol by very high amounts just as lipids (plavix, zocor) do.

These are incorrect statements. Tamox/Nolva/Clomid are SERMs and are weak estrogens. The amount of estrodiol in the body does not change, but is rendered useless because of the weaker estrogen (the SERM). Arimidex and Letro are AI's and they eleminate all estrogens and are not selective. AI's are the culpits for the bad lipids and the sore joints.

 

[3clipseGT]

These are incorrect statements. Tamox/Nolva/Clomid are SERMs and are weak estrogens. The amount of estrodiol in the body does not change, but is rendered useless because of the weaker estrogen (the SERM). Arimidex and Letro are AI's and they eleminate all estrogens and are not selective. AI's are the culpits for the bad lipids and the sore joints.

Very nice info here hyde.. Letro KILLED my libido and joints!

 

[Ziquor]

These are incorrect statements. Tamox/Nolva/Clomid are SERMs and are weak estrogens. The amount of estrodiol in the body does not change, but is rendered useless because of the weaker estrogen (the SERM). Arimidex and Letro are AI's and they eleminate all estrogens and are not selective. AI's are the culpits for the bad lipids and the sore joints.

Good post. As for AI's this doesn't hold true for all AI's. There are steroidal AI's & non-steroidal AI's. Big difference. Havoc/Epi is actually considered a steroidal AI. Tamox specifically works by blocking estrogen in certain receptors, mainly in the breast tissue estrogen receptors. Excess estrogen contributes to cancerous tumor growth, hence the original use for tamoxifen - breast cancer. This is also why it's just as useful for elimination of gyno in men too. Similar deal with Torem on it's stronger. One thing that seperates Tamox though is like I mentioned it's excellent for decreasing cholesterol but only Tamox. It decreses bad cholesterol greatly which can be very useful after a cycle.

 

[DAdams91982]

Good post. As for AI's this doesn't hold true for all AI's. There are steroidal AI's & non-steroidal AI's. Big difference. Havoc/Epi is actually considered a steroidal AI. Tamox specifically works by blocking estrogen in certain receptors, mainly in the breast tissue estrogen receptors. Excess estrogen contributes to cancerous tumor growth, hence the original use for tamoxifen - breast cancer. This is also why it's just as useful for elimination of gyno in men too. Similar deal with Torem on it's stronger. One thing that seperates Tamox though is like I mentioned it's excellent for decreasing cholesterol but only Tamox. It decreses bad cholesterol greatly which can be very useful after a cycle.

He was right in his statement. And you are right on the path of action. The weak estrogens bind to receptors, and render them useless for damaging estrogen to bind to. The SERMs stated do no decrease the amount of estrogen within the bloodstream, but instead blocks the negative effects brought about by such.

I personally find the tried and true fertility drug Clomid the best. With its ability to stimulate secretion of GnRH, thus increasing the secretion of FSH, and LH. Both required for the all important rebound.

Adams

 

[Chad]

clomid is my fav

 

[pudzian2]

clomid is my fav

what dosage regime do you favor?

 

[swole210]

Clomid has definitely worked the best of all for me! The only thing that I hate about it, is the mood swings(all emotional and sh*t, all though not allways), and the ocular side effects! My last run was actually the first time I got the ocular side effects(crazy trails and stuff!!), but I did not see any of the emotional side effects. Weird:think: I like Torem as well, but Clomid brings me "back" super quick! Now that I think of it, I have never tried Nolva......I don't think.........:think:

 

[Ziquor]

It's good to hear info on which of these people like. In the medical journals I've been researching it appears that mg for mg Torem is the strongest followed by Tamoxifen with Clomid being the most mild. How about some opinions on which AI's run well with serm's during pct?

 

[Interlocutor]

It's good to hear info on which of these people like. In the medical journals I've been researching it appears that mg for mg Torem is the strongest followed by Tamoxifen with Clomid being the most mild. How about some opinions on which AI's run well with serm's during post cycle therapy?

i have used torm, ralo and nolva (on occasion), but not clomid (afraid of the ocular side effects). all pharmacy/prescription grade, not research liquids.

personally, i got the feeling that torm worked fastest, and ralo had the least sides for me. torm gave me ED while at 120mg dosing, but not when lower dosed. did not have this problem with ralo at all.

i'm trying to remember how i did it, i think i did the torm with some atd (probably overkill) tapered down, and the ralo combined with low dosed atd.

i'm probably going to use either ralo (if it comes in time) or nolva with some low-dosed 6-OXO next time.

as for

The weak estrogens bind to receptors, and render them useless for damaging estrogen to bind to. The SERMs stated do no decrease the amount of estrogen within the bloodstream, but instead blocks the negative effects brought about by such.

if you check the studies on torm, you'll find several which indicate that torm actually MAY lower serum levels of estradiol. OTOH you'll find also a lot of (espcieally older ones) that tamo may RAISE estradiol levels. but a lot of those were made on rats, fish, or postmenopausal women...

THE INTERLOCUTOR

 

[Hyde12]

i have used torm, ralo and nolva (on occasion), but not clomid (afraid of the ocular side effects). all pharmacy/prescription grade, not research liquids.

personally, i got the feeling that torm worked fastest, and ralo had the least sides for me. torm gave me ED while at 120mg dosing, but not when lower dosed. did not have this problem with ralo at all.

i'm trying to remember how i did it, i think i did the torm with some atd (probably overkill) tapered down, and the ralo combined with low dosed atd.

i'm probably going to use either ralo (if it comes in time) or nolva with some low-dosed 6-OXO next time.

as for

if you check the studies on torm, you'll find several which indicate that torm actually MAY lower serum levels of estradiol. OTOH you'll find also a lot of (espcieally older ones) that tamo may RAISE estradiol levels. but a lot of those were made on rats, fish, or postmenopausal women...

THE INTERLOCUTOR

The ATD probably caused the ED, not the Torm.

 

[Interlocutor]

The ATD probably caused the ED, not the Torm.

i did atd standalone some time ago, and had the ed after about 4-5 weeks on that.

possibly the combo of AI & SERM?

also, it went away when i dropped the torm from 120 to 90 but maintained the ATD (IIRC).

wasn't really that bad: had cialis on hand, lol.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

 

[Ziquor]

That reminds me... my dad has diabetes and apparently somehow or another it can lead to ED? But anyhow I was at my parents last year havin a beer with my Dad & he gave me a Viagra because he wanted me to try it, lol, plus he was drunk. Worse part is it seems to me that I have the opposite of ED - my girlfriend hates it I'm usually in there at least twice a day when allowed. I took a small piece of the V my dad gave me one day then banged my GF a couiple times - but I still had an erection for a few hours after. Nothing we tried would take it away. That shi!'s really potent if you ask me. I heard Cialis was stronger but I couldn't even imagine it'd probably kill me.

 

[swole210]

That reminds me... my dad has diabetes and apparently somehow or another it can lead to ED? But anyhow I was at my parents last year havin a beer with my Dad & he gave me a Viagra because he wanted me to try it, lol, plus he was drunk. Worse part is it seems to me that I have the opposite of ED - my girlfriend hates it I'm usually in there at least twice a day when allowed. I took a small piece of the V my dad gave me one day then banged my GF a couiple times - but I still had an erection for a few hours after. Nothing we tried would take it away. That shi!'s really potent if you ask me. I heard Cialis was stronger but I couldn't even imagine it'd probably kill me.

I couldn't do that either, LOLLL!!!! I would have to tape my thang down to my leg if I took one of those things!!! I have allways been curious of tyring them, just to see what they really do, but of course i would do such as your self, and only take a small piece! Plus, I don't know that I would enjoy the headaches I would get from these. I've tried a couple of really good otc ones(Aspire 36 comes straight to my mind), but GEEZ, the headaches!

 

[LakeMountD]

I posted this a while back but toremifene is definitely the way to go. Here is the article that I posted in ancient times lol.



Antiatherogenic effects of adjuvant antiestrogens: a randomized trial comparing the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on plasma lipid levels in postmenopausal women with node-positive breast cancer
T Saarto, C Blomqvist, C Ehnholm, MR Taskinen and I Elomaa
Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland.
------>To evaluate whether a novel antiestrogen, toremifene, has similar antiatherogenic effects as tamoxifen. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty-nine postmenopausal patients with node-positive breast cancer were randomized in a trial that compared the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on serum lipoproteins. Tamoxifen was given at 20 mg and toremifene at 60 mg orally per day for 3 years. Serum concentrations of apolipoprotein (apo) A-I, A-II, and B, and lipoprotein(a) [Lp(a)], cholesterol, triglyceride, high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and estradiol were measured before and after 12 months of antiestrogen therapy. RESULTS: Both antiestrogens significantly reduced serum total and LDL cholesterol and apo B levels. However, the response of HDL cholesterol to treatments was clearly different between the groups. Toremifene increased the HDL level by 14%, whereas tamoxifen decreased it by 5% (P = .001). As a consequence, both cholesterol-to-HDL and LDL-to-HDL ratios decreased more in the toremifene than tamoxifen group (P = .008 and P = .03, respectively). Toremifene also increased the apo A-I level (P = .00007) and apo A-I-to- A-II ratio (P = .018). Both tamoxifen and toremifene decreased the Lp(a) concentration significantly (change, 34% v 41%). CONCLUSION: These results provide positive evidence that toremifene has antiatherogenic properties with potency to improve all lipoproteins that are associated with increased coronary heart disease (CHD) risk.



Effects of toremifene (TOR) and tamoxifen (TAM) on serum lipids
M. Kusama1, K. Miyauchi2, H. Aoyama3, M. Sano4, M. Kimura5, S. Mitsuyama6, K. Komaki7 and H. Doihara8
(1) Third Department of Surgery, Tokyo Medical University, 2-25-9 Nishi-shinjuku, Japan
(2) Miyauchi Clinic, Japan
(3) Nagoya National Hospital, Japan
(4) Niigata Cancer Center, Japan
(5) Gunma Cancer Center, Japan
(6) Kitakyusyu Municipal Medical Center, Japan
(7) School of Medicine, University of Tokushima, Japan
(8) Okayama University Medical School, Japan
------>This study clarified the difference in the effects on serum lipids between toremifene (TOR) and tamoxifen (TAM). To remove influencing factors, we investigated adjuvant therapy for hormone receptor-positive patients with breast cancer without lymph node metastasis. The subjects were 65 patients who were enrolled in a multicenter randomized comparative study between April 1997 and March 2001. As adjuvant therapy, 20 mg of TAM or 40 mg of TOR was administered for 1 year. The levels of triglyceride (TG), total cholesterol (TC), high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C), apolipoprotein A-1 (Apo A-1), apolipoprotein A(Apo B), and lipoprotein a (Lp(a)) were measured prior to administration and 3, 6, and 12 months after the start of administration. TC, LDL-C, Lp(a) and Apo B significantly decreased from the third month of administration compared with values before the start of administration in both the TOR and TAM groups. HDL-C significantly increased from the third month only in the TOR group. TG significantly increased in the TAM group but significantly decreased in the TOR group in the 12th month of administration. When these two groups were compared, HDL-C was significantly higher ( p < 0.01) and TG was significantly lower ( p < 0.01) in the TOR group in the 12th month. Improvement of abnormal values of TG, HDL-C and LDL-C was better in the TOR group than in the TAM group after administration for 12 months. The effect on lipid metabolism showed different profiles between the two selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), and TOR gave better results than TAM.


Here is the original link: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/45702-toremifene-far-superior.html

 

[pudzian2]

I posted this a while back but toremifene is definitely the way to go. Here is the article that I posted in ancient times lol.



Antiatherogenic effects of adjuvant antiestrogens: a randomized trial comparing the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on plasma lipid levels in postmenopausal women with node-positive breast cancer
T Saarto, C Blomqvist, C Ehnholm, MR Taskinen and I Elomaa
Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland.
------>To evaluate whether a novel antiestrogen, toremifene, has similar antiatherogenic effects as tamoxifen. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty-nine postmenopausal patients with node-positive breast cancer were randomized in a trial that compared the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on serum lipoproteins. Tamoxifen was given at 20 mg and toremifene at 60 mg orally per day for 3 years. Serum concentrations of apolipoprotein (apo) A-I, A-II, and B, and lipoprotein(a) [Lp(a)], cholesterol, triglyceride, high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and estradiol were measured before and after 12 months of antiestrogen therapy. RESULTS: Both antiestrogens significantly reduced serum total and LDL cholesterol and apo B levels. However, the response of HDL cholesterol to treatments was clearly different between the groups. Toremifene increased the HDL level by 14%, whereas tamoxifen decreased it by 5% (P = .001). As a consequence, both cholesterol-to-HDL and LDL-to-HDL ratios decreased more in the toremifene than tamoxifen group (P = .008 and P = .03, respectively). Toremifene also increased the apo A-I level (P = .00007) and apo A-I-to- A-II ratio (P = .018). Both tamoxifen and toremifene decreased the Lp(a) concentration significantly (change, 34% v 41%). CONCLUSION: These results provide positive evidence that toremifene has antiatherogenic properties with potency to improve all lipoproteins that are associated with increased coronary heart disease (CHD) risk.



Effects of toremifene (TOR) and tamoxifen (TAM) on serum lipids
M. Kusama1, K. Miyauchi2, H. Aoyama3, M. Sano4, M. Kimura5, S. Mitsuyama6, K. Komaki7 and H. Doihara8
(1) Third Department of Surgery, Tokyo Medical University, 2-25-9 Nishi-shinjuku, Japan
(2) Miyauchi Clinic, Japan
(3) Nagoya National Hospital, Japan
(4) Niigata Cancer Center, Japan
(5) Gunma Cancer Center, Japan
(6) Kitakyusyu Municipal Medical Center, Japan
(7) School of Medicine, University of Tokushima, Japan
(8) Okayama University Medical School, Japan
------>This study clarified the difference in the effects on serum lipids between toremifene (TOR) and tamoxifen (TAM). To remove influencing factors, we investigated adjuvant therapy for hormone receptor-positive patients with breast cancer without lymph node metastasis. The subjects were 65 patients who were enrolled in a multicenter randomized comparative study between April 1997 and March 2001. As adjuvant therapy, 20 mg of TAM or 40 mg of TOR was administered for 1 year. The levels of triglyceride (TG), total cholesterol (TC), high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C), apolipoprotein A-1 (Apo A-1), apolipoprotein A(Apo B), and lipoprotein a (Lp(a)) were measured prior to administration and 3, 6, and 12 months after the start of administration. TC, LDL-C, Lp(a) and Apo B significantly decreased from the third month of administration compared with values before the start of administration in both the TOR and TAM groups. HDL-C significantly increased from the third month only in the TOR group. TG significantly increased in the TAM group but significantly decreased in the TOR group in the 12th month of administration. When these two groups were compared, HDL-C was significantly higher ( p < 0.01) and TG was significantly lower ( p < 0.01) in the TOR group in the 12th month. Improvement of abnormal values of TG, HDL-C and LDL-C was better in the TOR group than in the TAM group after administration for 12 months. The effect on lipid metabolism showed different profiles between the two selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), and TOR gave better results than TAM.


Here is the original link: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/45702-toremifene-far-superior.html

I have always preferred toremifene. I just find it interesting that a lot of people claim clomid works best for them PCT.