Legal question

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    Legal question


    I was always under the assumption that SERMS were as legal to purchase as a container of protein. I have recently started to see alot of people posting that SERMS are illegal. Im abit confused, can the DEA come in and pop you for ordering a research chem? Has anyone every been arrested for having a serm shipped to their residence? ALso does anyone know if the defense that im only using this as a research chemical would work esp if i dont have a basement full of lab rats ?

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    For one, IF you have a basement full of lab rats and are caught in possession of a regulated substance like a research chemical, IF you claim you are using for animal-based research, you BETTER have a FDA permit to conduct animal-testing.

    SERMS and research chems in general are ILLEGAL for human consumption/use.

    bb
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    Thanks for the response.
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    Great question.
    I'm not an attorney, but have done a little searching under my state laws and have found that these liquid SERMS, clen, AI's, etc fall under what's called "Legend drugs". In my state it is ILLEGAL to buy these. I have recently decided to stop purchase of anymore.
    This is relatively a new area that law enforcement is cracking down on, mainly on the distributors end, not the everyday guy buying a bottle here and there. I won't chance it anymore.
    Look under your state statutes and search the words "legend drugs".
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    They're illegal to buy without a script but they arn't scheduled, so i'm pretty sure even if you did get busted with them, they can't do anything to you..
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    Quote Originally Posted by leetuser View Post
    They're illegal to buy without a script but they arn't scheduled, so i'm pretty sure even if you did get busted with them, they can't do anything to you..
    True. Can you imagine going to jail for a SERM?
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    Here's a post that Crowler references this topic. Apparently he's spoken to Rick Collins ( Rick Collins Online - About Rick Collins ):

    Quote Originally Posted by CROWLER View Post
    Trans-Resveratrol IS a SERM

    Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) are a new class of drugsthat bind to estrogen receptor (ER) and elicit agonistic or antagonistic responses, depending on the target tissue.

    It acts as a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) and
    regulates proteins involved in DNA synthesis and cell cycle.
    Resveratrol also affects the activity of transcriptional factors involved
    in proliferation and stress responses, such as NF-kB, AP1 and Egr1

    Signorelli P and
    Ghidoni R Resveratrol as an anticancer nutrient: molecular basis, open
    questions and promises. J Nutr Biochem. 2005 Aug;16(8):449-66.

    I have personally spoken to Rick Collins the authority on anabolic steroids legalities and author of Legal Muscle. You CAN indeed be arrested for ordering possessing or using research chems and it does NOT matter if you say it is for research on an animal on tissues etc.


    Personally I am not willing to take the risk and therefore will use POST Cycle Support for ALL cycles I do. Especially when I think about 2 online research chem companies have recently been raided by the Federal govt who seized various items including their computers which of course has the credit card numbers and addresses of all their customers.

    At this point IMO it is a crap shoot who is on the other end of the computer when a person places their order.

    Is POST Cycle Support strong enough for use by itself for EVERY single anabolic steroids or Prohormone cycle ? No one knows for sure. I personally have and others have used it as our only post cycle therapy and it worked GREAT! BUT each person may be a little different.

    On the other hand people who have a predisposition for gyno who even DO use a prescription SERM can get gyno.

    If you feel comfortable ordering and using research chems I would continue doings so but would STRONGLY urge you to at least consider using POST Cycle Support along with it. Seeing some of the lab reports on some online research chems I would NOT want to rely on them completely.


    CROWLER
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    There is no law in existence that states that you cannot consume research chemicals. A legend drug IS a prescription drug. They are one in the same. These are however NOT prescription medications. They are RESEARCH CHEMICALS intended for lab use ONLY. Also, it is ILLEGAL to test any chemicals on animals. You must use TISSUE SAMPLES in your lab. Don't believe me? This info comes from a former research chem company owner.(not me btw)
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    Interesting. Apparantly the guy who owned a research chem company was wrong? Looks like i'll have to find a doctor. Until I see proof that trans-res can prevent gyno like serms do, i'm sticking with serms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassgod272 View Post
    There is no law in existence that states that you cannot consume research chemicals. A legend drug IS a prescription drug. They are one in the same. These are however NOT prescription medications.
    I thought the same thing too, until I read my state statute.
    It states that any FORM with ACTIVE ingredients of any prescription drug is considered a legend drug.
    Every state is different.
    Know your state statute.
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    Maybe we should all go find good "understanding" doctors and the legal worries would go away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotTest View Post
    I thought the same thing too, until I read my state statute.
    It states that any FORM with ACTIVE ingredients of any prescription drug is considered a legend drug.
    Every state is different.
    Know your state statute.
    Which state is that? And i'm not all that concerned with ordering RC online. It's a domestic order and even if it did get searched they'll just seize it and send you a letter from customs. They arn't going to come break your door down and haul you off to jail. Even if they catch a package from a foreign country with AAS all they do is send you a seizure letter..
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    That seems to make sense.. In Florida, it's a misdemeanor in the second degree - which can get you up to 60 days in jail. However, it seems unlikely that you'd get anything more than a letter from customs..

    Quote Originally Posted by leetuser View Post
    Which state is that? And i'm not all that concerned with ordering RC online. It's a domestic order and even if it did get searched they'll just seize it and send you a letter from customs. They arn't going to come break your door down and haul you off to jail. Even if they catch a package from a foreign country with anabolic steroids all they do is send you a seizure letter..
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassgod272 View Post
    There is no law in existence that states that you cannot consume research chemicals. A legend drug IS a prescription drug. They are one in the same. These are however NOT prescription medications. They are RESEARCH CHEMICALS intended for lab use ONLY. Also, it is ILLEGAL to test any chemicals on animals. You must use TISSUE SAMPLES in your lab. Don't believe me? This info comes from a former research chem company owner.(not me btw)
    I can't believe you are arguing with Rick Collins!.
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    Bassgod recanted in his very next post...I'm guessing he saw my post about Rick Collins as we posted very closely together.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Bassgod recanted in his very next post...I'm guessing he saw my post about Rick Collins as we posted very closely together.
    Ahh stxnas... Rick Collins is not God nor is anyone. You can't argue with the hundreds of Gov't funded studies, I'm sure anyone will take them over good ole RC. You will get in NO TROUBLE having or getting a prescription SERM for that matter. Non-controlled meds of VERY limited restrictions and have no punishable laws as do Scheduled/Controlled meds. Here we go again... Like I said many times before I love the idea of a otc PCT or SERM. It just isn't a reality. The more research I do the more grim it looks. It's very clear that with Halo/clones you may not need much of a PCT at all but then again it has alomost no androgenic activity whatsoever. It's be far the weakest androgenic ph. However if you plan on using a stronger PH or ANY gear your screwed without a prescription serm. The definition of a serm is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. What most people don't realize is you could call something that raises estrogen a serm technically. The whole point of Nolva, for example, is that it blocks/reduces 80%+ of all estrogen which is what is needed for a proper PCT. It's also proven to do many other positive things as well and get your body back to normal after a cycle. Without Tamox or Torem, etc. there's a REALLY good chance your body may be f 'd up for the rest of your life. Delayed gyno can take a year sometimes to show up without a proper pct. And once you get it you're stuck taking a prescription serm for life not to mention many other problems. My point being, as it's been all along, I just read about a dozen government studies on Trans-Resveratrol and ALL lead to the same outcome. It is PROVEN to raise estrogen but there is NO signifigant evidence at all showing it can reduce estrogen. Even if it did reduce estrogen it wouldn't nearly be enough for a proper pct, IF IT EVEN DID which it doesn't! Here's just one of MANY studies and for those who don't know an agonist is something that increases the production of whereas an antagonist is something that decreases the production of. Example Tamox & Torem are estrogen antagonists.






    Funded by:
    IDPH, Penny Severns Breast and Cervical Cancer Research Fund
    DOD BCRP; Grant Number: DAMD-17-99-9334, T32CA 70085
    Avon Foundation; Grant Number: SPORE CA89018-01


    Keywords
    Resveratrol ER agonistic activity gene arrays p21CIP1/WAF1 breast cancer cells



    Abstract
    Resveratrol (Res) is a phytoestrogen found in grapes and present in red wine. Res has been shown to function as an estrogen receptor (ER) agonist, but it remains unclear whether it may also exert antagonist activity. Our aim was to study the effects of Res at both the molecular (TGF gene activation) and the cellular (cell growth) levels in breast cancer cells stably transfected with wild-type (wt) ER(D351) and mutant (mut) ER (D351Y). TGF mRNA induction was used as a specific marker of estradiol (E2) responsiveness. Res caused a concentration-dependent (10-8-10-4 M) stimulation of TGF mRNA, indicating that it acts as an estrogen agonist in these cell lines. The pure antiestrogen ICI 182,780 (ICI) blocked Res-induced activation of TGF, consistent with action through an ER-mediated pathway. Further studies that combined treatments with E2 and Res showed that Res does not act as an antagonist in the presence of various (10-11-10-8 M) concentrations of E2. To determine whether Res can be classified as a type I or type II estrogen (Jordan et al., Cancer Res 2001;61:6619-23,), we examined Res with the D351G ER in the TGF assay and found that Res belongs to the type I estrogens. Both Res and E2 had concentration-dependent growth inhibitory effects in cells expressing wtER and D351Y ER. Although the pure antiestrogen ICI blocked the growth inhibitory effects of E2, it did not block the inhibitory effects of Res, suggesting that the antiproliferative effects of Res also involve ER-independent pathways. Interestingly, Res differentially affected the levels of ER protein in these 2 cell lines: Res down-regulated wtER levels while significantly up-regulating the amount of mutD351Y ER. Co-treatment with ICI resulted in strongly reduced ER levels in both cell lines. Gene array studies revealed Res-induced up-regulation of more than 80 genes, among them a profound activation of p21CIP1/WAF1, a gene associated with growth arrest. The p21CIP1/WAF1 protein levels measured by Western blotting confirmed Res-induced significant up-regulation of this protein in both cell lines. In summary, Res acts as an ER agonist at low doses but also activates ER-independent pathways, some of which inhibit cell growth.
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    What the hell is happening to AM? This is real billsh!t. I think ANY company rep who pushes their products over FICTION and shi! which has NEVER been proven should be BANNED. You tell people who just did a cycle of Superdrol to get post cycle support and they'll need no prescription SERM? You send people to screw up their bodies & lives for that matter so you can continue to get your free supplements from AI? WTF... I love the company & love the products but PCS WILL NOT recover ANYONE from a cycle of any moderately strong PH or GEAR without a proper PCT (Tamox, Torem, etc). Since I own a home remodeling company maybe I should start telling people who live here in PA (snowing, 10 degrees that past few days) that they don't need roofs - they'll be safe & fine without them. Instead just buy more siding from me or a new kitchen for $25,000. What the hell it'll make me more...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Ahh stxnas... Rick Collins is not God nor is anyone. You can't argue with the hundreds of Gov't funded studies, I'm sure anyone will take them over good ole RC. You will get in NO TROUBLE having or getting a prescription SERM for that matter. Non-controlled meds of VERY limited restrictions and have no punishable laws as do Scheduled/Controlled meds. Here we go again... Like I said many times before I love the idea of a otc post cycle therapy or SERM. It just isn't a reality. The more research I do the more grim it looks. It's very clear that with Halo/clones you may not need much of a PCT at all but then again it has alomost no androgenic activity whatsoever. It's be far the weakest androgenic ph. However if you plan on using a stronger PH or ANY gear your screwed without a prescription serm. The definition of a serm is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. What most people don't realize is you could call something that raises estrogen a serm technically. The whole point of Nolva, for example, is that it blocks/reduces 80%+ of all estrogen which is what is needed for a proper PCT. It's also proven to do many other positive things as well and get your body back to normal after a cycle. Without Tamox or Torem, etc. there's a REALLY good chance your body may be f 'd up for the rest of your life. Delayed gyno can take a year sometimes to show up without a proper post cycle therapy. And once you get it you're stuck taking a prescription serm for life not to mention many other problems. My point being, as it's been all along, I just read about a dozen government studies on Trans-Resveratrol and ALL lead to the same outcome. It is PROVEN to raise estrogen but there is NO signifigant evidence at all showing it can reduce estrogen. Even if it did reduce estrogen it wouldn't nearly be enough for a proper post cycle therapy, IF IT EVEN DID which it doesn't! Here's just one of MANY studies and for those who don't know an agonist is something that increases the production of whereas an antagonist is something that decreases the production of. Example Tamox & Torem are estrogen antagonists.
    I'd have to say I agree with this also. I have seen no one, no one post any studies finding Resveratrol as a suitable substitute for a Rx serm. Period. I think this is little more than a clever marketing strategy targeting the fearful consumer with an alternative to the newly demonize tried and true serm. And have seen it demonized mainly by those pushing or pimping this product.
    Don't get me wrong I would much rather take a natural supp over eating a fcuking research chem from a some what inconspicuous company any-day, if it in-fact did produce the same results. But I have not yet seen this proven IMO...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    What the hell is happening to AM? This is real billsh!t. I think ANY company rep who pushes their products over FICTION and shi! which has NEVER been proven should be BANNED. You tell people who just did a cycle of Superdrol to get post cycle support and they'll need no prescription SERM? You send people to screw up their bodies & lives for that matter so you can continue to get your free supplements from AI? WTF... I love the company & love the products but PCS WILL NOT recover ANYONE from a cycle of any moderately strong PH or GEAR without a proper post cycle therapy (Tamox, Torem, etc). Since I own a home remodeling company maybe I should start telling people who live here in PA (snowing, 10 degrees that past few days) that they don't need roofs - they'll be safe & fine without them. Instead just buy more siding from me or a new kitchen for $25,000. What the hell it'll make me more...
    Have you even ran a cycle before? You guys are disrespecting some veterans of this board based on heresay and absolutely zero experience in this area. BTW, it looks like you've been a member for a whopping month and a half, so I wouldn't think that you are in any position to make any judgements on the current state of AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    Have you even ran a cycle before? You guys are disrespecting some veterans of this board based on heresay and absolutely zero experience in this area. BTW, it looks like you've been a member for a whopping month and a half, so I wouldn't think that you are in any position to make any judgements on the current state of AM.
    WTF are you even talking about? I didn't disrespect anyone, just disagreed with one person. And how much crack someone smokes isn't = to their knowledge of drugs. I've been researching & living nutrition & working out for 14 years. Not to mention took quite a few nutrition & chem classes in college. That means I started when you were 14. The point I had is newbs will listen to anything most of the time. Does anyone realize the kind of trouble they could be in for telling someone to use grape extract (resveratrol) for a serm & calling it a serm? This could really screw a young persons body up. If the FDA did indeed classify Resver as a serm post the link. Put up the facts. Not something based on an attorney's opinion. And I see you post a whole whopping 1.4 post/day and you talk about respecting the board? Get real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    WTF are you even talking about? I didn't disrespect anyone, just disagreed with one person. And how much crack someone smokes isn't = to their knowledge of drugs. I've been researching & living nutrition & working out for 14 years. Not to mention took quite a few nutrition & chem classes in college. That means I started when you were 14. The point I had is newbs will listen to anything most of the time. Does anyone realize the kind of trouble they could be in for telling someone to use grape extract (resveratrol) for a serm & calling it a serm? This could really screw a young persons body up. If the FDA did indeed classify Resver as a serm post the link. Put up the facts. Not something based on an attorney's opinion. And I see you post a whole whopping 1.4 post/day and you talk about respecting the board? Get real.
    You've never even ran a cycle before and yet you post all day in the steroid section of the forum? More posts does not equal contributing to this board. BTW, you are a NEWB, don't get things misconstrued, b/c you have been to the gym off and on for the last 14 years. BTW, I'm glad you didn't choose chem as a major, seeing how much it helped you to determine this-
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Only difference is PH's are loosely legal - steroids are not. Except Halo/clones. Halo is a PH.
    Oh, and you realize that you're only 3 years older than me, right? Why would I care that you've been training since I was fourteen? Is it because you were seventeen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    [B][I][U]WTF are you even talking about? I didn't disrespect anyone, just disagreed with one person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    What the hell is happening to AM? This is real billsh!t. I think ANY company rep who pushes their products over FICTION and shi! which has NEVER been proven should be BANNED. You tell people who just did a cycle of Superdrol to get post cycle support and they'll need no prescription SERM? You send people to screw up their bodies & lives for that matter so you can continue to get your free supplements from AI? WTF... I love the company & love the products but PCS WILL NOT recover ANYONE from a cycle of any moderately strong PH or GEAR without a proper post cycle therapy (Tamox, Torem, etc). Since I own a home remodeling company maybe I should start telling people who live here in PA (snowing, 10 degrees that past few days) that they don't need roofs - they'll be safe & fine without them. Instead just buy more siding from me or a new kitchen for $25,000. What the hell it'll make me more...
    You blatantly disrespected a company and a rep for that company. I can't believe you would even attempt to argue doing this.
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    This is the first time I've seen this response. While I appreciate your reply Ziquor (as we both know there's no hard feelings), I'd have to say that it went somewhat off on a tangent. All I said was that it has been advised against purchasing research chems by Rick Collins. FWIR, there have been some busts on some research chem sites as of late. What will come of it, who knows?

    I agree that a RX SERM should always be the first choice. It does appear that pulsing or short straight epi cycles may be okay without a SERM. The same goes for the Halodrol clones.

    There have been a couple of cases of guys PMing me that were about to start post cycle therapy and absolutely would not purchase a SERM. I suggested that they at least use something like PCS, but I try and always suggest a SERM first. Just today I told somebody on a PM not to run a superdrol clone b/c they didn't have access to a RX SERM.

    This is part of a PM from today at 11:17 AM:
    ...Oh, and I wouldn't feel comfortable telling somebody to take superdrol or its clones without having a SERM for post cycle therapy....
    I have to study now; later
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    This thread has turned into a "My pee pee is bigger than your pee pee". Remember that argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy and does not prove your point.
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    I am going to do a short (4) week straight Epi cycle either 20/30/30/40 or 20/30/40/40. This PH alone stacked with nothing else PH wise would be ok for an OTC PTC then since it is only Epi and going just for four weeks? I will use resveratol 800 MG a day and Ease - Daa. Tell me what you think......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annagabe
    I am going to do a short (4) week straight Epi cycle either 20/30/30/40 or 20/30/40/40. This PH alone stacked with nothing else PH wise would be ok for an OTC PTC then since it is only Epi and going just for four weeks? I will use resveratol 800 MG a day and Ease - Daa. Tell me what you think......
    No. Trust me, I just ran Epi with an underdosed SERM and nearly had rebound problems. Luckily I caught it quickly. Epi is an active compound bro... You need more than a OTC PCT... Saying "ONLY EPI" made me lol...
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