To SERM or not to SERM

[Schism]

I'm just trying to find the general consensus on the weather a SERM should be used post cycle for Epi-type compounds. And gather some actual user feed back from those who have done either, or both methods.
Please fill me in on your recovery and the amount of your gains you were able to maintain sides ect.
All votes and responses will be appreciated and people WILL BE REPPED!!!


Note: I am neither pro or anti-SERM just looking for opinions.

 

[poopypants]

JMO but why NOT run a SERM???

even if its not "neccesary" to actually get back to norm youll most definately do so faster and be more capable of maintaing gains! Its no worse on your body then the cycle you just finished and you should be taking ancilleries for that crap anyways.

If I bust my ass and go through the trouble of running a cycle to get those precious pounds then I go 10X more all out with my post cycle therapy to maintain those gains... and possibly improve on them! Im the biggest advocate of overdoing it on post cycle therapy hitting every possible angle I can with as many possible supps as I can that arent redundant to make sure I dont skip a beat after a cycle and wont do it any other way, the one time I didnt use a serm I GOT GYNO... F that shiiit.

 

[Schism]

I also agree with you poopy. So thanks for your response. I repped you.
I see so many threads on here were people spend the whole time arguing over the us of SERMs versus OTC therapies, that I just wanted to poll every one's opinion on it. And see what the general feelings were on it and get some user feed back from people with experience using both for epi-type pct.
I chose to discuss epi because there seems to be the most argument on whether or not to implicate the use of SERMs in pct following a cycle of this compound.

 

[poopypants]

I also agree with you poopy. So thanks for your response. I repped you.
I see so many threads on here were people spend the whole time arguing over the us of SERMs versus OTC therapies, that I just wanted to poll every one's opinion on it. And see what the general feelings were on it and get some user feed back from people with experience using both for epi-type post cycle therapy.
I chose to discuss epi because there seems to be the most argument on whether or not to implicate the use of SERMs in post cycle therapy following a cycle of this compound.

I think its most definately a requirement, just casue Epi has SERM like efects does not make it the same as an all out SERM. Who knows if its effects wane off slowly or if the dive there after and can cause a rebound (I do think its effects last like a week after stopping but who knows how fast it drops off after that). Its always better safe then sorry, I have been able to actually gain in my Epi PCT, sich is usually unheard of in any PCT. I attribute it to the comprehensive PCT ran INCLUDING TOREM A SERM! So kudos on polling this, hopefully others who are tring to skim by with less for their PCT will catch this and reverse their line of thinking.

 

[nosnmiveins]

IMHO a serm is a MUST to atleast have on hand when u are running ANY ph/ps....yes Havoc and clones might have less sides and possibly be less suppressive but still

...at least use cycle support, PCS, cort blocker and a test booster...maybe a serm wont be necessary...everyone is different

 

[poopypants]

IMHO a serm is a MUST to atleast have on hand when u are running ANY ph/ps....yes Havoc and clones might have less sides and possibly be less suppressive but still

...at least use cycle support, PCS, cort blocker and a test booster...maybe a serm wont be necessary...everyone is different

I agree that you should at least keep a SERM on hand. But you know MAYBE is all most can say about this.... also the ones who say " i didnt use one and i was fine" im sure are reffering to how they felt... did ANY of them get blood done to prove their OTC post cycle therapy was even truley effective at restoring basline values??? I have with a SERM and the test numbers are HIGH when Im done with my PCT. Id still like to see blood done by someone with an OTC PCT... I think EasyEJL is supposed to be running an OTC PCT and has gotten base beginning blood and is getting post PCT blood as well.

 

[SupFatHead]

Poop, people vastly overstate the benefits of SERM's restoring HPTA. Dr. H has explained this a few times I believe.

 

[poopypants]

If you can provide blood results for identical cycles with identical starting values showing that SERM and NO SERM are just as effective at restoring base line values I will abandon my beliefs and line of reasoning. All I know is what I have personally experienced with a SERM and without. Ive also got blood with a SERM (torem) use only after a 6 week DBOL and Epi cycle (just by the nature of DBOL i should have been severely suppressed) and ended with +600 total test levels (800 capping normal top test range and 300 being low in normal range). Not to mention the most important reson for runing a SERM wich is absolute estrogen blocking at the receptor itself, allowing you to have the health benifits of free flowing estrogen without the negative sides, opposed to destroing estrogen with typical Suicide inhibitors used that can make est levels drop below desireable levels.

 

[Ziquor]

I'm with you 100% Poopy. I haven't much on the personal experience/use side but I did study much of this in college. Non-steroidal SERM's help your body recover from shutdown & get your natty test working better again whereas AI's (like 6-oxo, ATD, formestane) can shut down the bodies natural test production on their own. AI's also have bad effects on cholesterol, BP (just like gear as they are considered steroidal). Sorry if that's a bit off topic, AI's do have many great uses. I'm just getting at, one of the worst sides of gear is the increase of cholesterol lipids. I've been following some studies by the fda & Massachusetts Institute of Tech. (MIT) - they're considering approving Nolva as a cholosterol reducing med. It doesn't work the same way statins do however it's shown in numerous tests now to dramatically decrease LDL (bad) cholestrol & increase HDL (good) cholesterol, even at low doses after as little as 2 weeks. These are just a couple benefits of SERM's. I believe any user should always keep them on hand.

 

[Schism]

I too believe that the benefits of using SERMs in bb applications has greatly been understated due to the lack of scientific studies on the matter (for obvious reasons). But I would love to see some clinical trial results with SERMs used as opposed to otc methods for recovery in controlled cases of steroid administration.
I know a lot of people (especially professional athletes) would be greatly interested in the results.
Repps for all!! WTF Hook a brother up!!!

 

[Schism]

I think its most definately a requirement, just casue Epi has SERM like efects does not make it the same as an all out SERM. Who knows if its effects wane off slowly or if the dive there after and can cause a rebound (I do think its effects last like a week after stopping but who knows how fast it drops off after that). Its always better safe then sorry, I have been able to actually gain in my Epi post cycle therapy, sich is usually unheard of in any PCT. I attribute it to the comprehensive PCT ran INCLUDING TOREM A SERM! So kudos on polling this, hopefully others who are tring to skim by with less for their PCT will catch this and reverse their line of thinking.

Tried to repp you again poopy. Wouldn't let me yet..:nono:

 

[Ziquor]

Right back at ya Schism.

 

[Cub]

I ran Epistane for four weeks at 20/30/40/40 and DID NOT use a SERM during post cycle therapy, in fact, I used NOTHING for post cycle therapy! I feel that SERMs are pushed by designer steroid/pro-hormone companies to make their products seem more hardcore than they really are. The only side effects I noticed (as mentioned in another post somewhere) was that my libido was down for a couple of weeks and I had trouble barring up on a few occassions during those two weeks :frustrate In saying this, I am planning/preparing a Superdrol cycle at the moment which will begin on the 18th of February and run for three weeks, which WILL contain PCT with a SERM. Only because of the consistent reviews claiming the harshness of the compound and possibility for *****ies. I will log it in detail so stay tuned. Talk about being hypocritical :blink:

 

[Schism]

Thanks cub. That's an interesting point of view. Though pretty fcuking conflicting! lol.. Did you loose alot of your gains coming off the epi without a pct?

 

[Ziquor]

I ran Epistane for four weeks at 20/30/40/40 and DID NOT use a SERM during post cycle therapy, in fact, I used NOTHING for post cycle therapy! I feel that SERMs are pushed by designer steroid/pro-hormone companies to make their products seem more hardcore than they really are. The only side effects I noticed (as mentioned in another post somewhere) was that my libido was down for a couple of weeks and I had trouble barring up on a few occassions during those two weeks :frustrate In saying this, I am planning/preparing a Superdrol cycle at the moment which will begin on the 18th of February and run for three weeks, which WILL contain post cycle therapy with a SERM. Only because of the consistent reviews claiming the harshness of the compound and possibility for *****ies. I will log it in detail so stay tuned. Talk about being hypocritical :blink:

I'm only for SERM's for the science & proof behind them. I never once in my life heard of a PH company pushing SERMS. I've know people (even on here) who didn't use SERM's end up with a fuc!ed up heart & an almost shut down natural test levels for life (loss of libido etc) & they never had any symptoms, but they find out months, maybe years later. Not to mention delayed Gyno with Superdrol/clones. What were your before & after blood test results Cub?

 

[poopypants]

PLEASE def use a serm with SD man, I didnt and only used 6-OXO when SD first came out and contracted gyno during PCT, I had to play catch up a month later and ran RXT and Nolva (a pct for my pct, pretty ****ty) and was able to make it subside. But ever since then I can easily get a Gyno flare up if im not careful, definately not fun and definately painful. Do your self a favor and ALWAYS use a serm, who are you to know how each compound will actually effect you? one guy might be all fine and dandy but it will possibly be harsher on your unique system. why even risk it? your not willing to with SD why at all?

 

[Schism]

Bumpin for more votes.
Plus I want to here from more guys who didn't use SERMs and what the negative effects were.
1.How long it took to recover
2.How much of your gains were lost
3.If you got gyno
4.How long it took for your libido to return
5.Maybe your balls fell off or some sh!t Fcuk I don't know

I want noobs to see this and think twice about their novedex XT or 6-oxo pct. So don't be shy, speak on it. I'm reppin everyone that responds!!

 

[Cub]

I'm only for SERM's for the science & proof behind them. I never once in my life heard of a PH company pushing SERMS. I've know people (even on here) who didn't use SERM's end up with a fuc!ed up heart & an almost shut down natural test levels for life (loss of libido etc) & they never had any symptoms, but they find out months, maybe years later. Not to mention delayed Gyno with Superdrol/clones. What were your before & after blood test results Cub?

I ran the Epistane cycle in December and had my blood tests done on the 23rd of January. I had a full medical and everything came back spot on. My test levels were at 23.7 which leads me to believe that the libido loss was mostly due to stress from starting a new job. I was also having trouble sleeping too (although this is common for me) as my mind races and I can't seem stop thinking when I hit the sack.

I will post my Superdrol log up a bit later. I have typed the introduction etc. up already and I do have a couple of questions so hopefully you blokes will be able to assist before I begin.

 

[Cub]

Thanks cub. That's an interesting point of view. Though pretty fcuking conflicting! lol.. Did you loose alot of your gains coming off the epi without a post cycle therapy?

Haha, I know mate. I didn't run a SERM because of the discussion on how mild it was. Basically zero side effects and some OK gains. I have to admit it wasn't anywhere near as good as what others had claimed it to be but I did gain a few pounds. This may have been because I was eating like a horse and wanted it to work. I did not lose any gains at all post cycle. I've got three bottles of Epistane left so my next cycle (later in the year) will be starting at 40mg and I'll possibly ramp the dosage up to 50mg for the last week or two. Wouldn't mind trying Havoc by RPN the company that started it all but unfortunately the labelling on their bottle means customs will confiscate before I get it!

 

[Schism]

I ran the Epistane cycle in December and had my blood tests done on the 23rd of January. I had a full medical and everything came back spot on. My test levels were at 23.7 which leads me to believe that the libido loss was mostly due to stress from starting a new job. I was also having trouble sleeping too (although this is common for me) as my mind races and I can't seem stop thinking when I hit the sack.

I will post my Superdrol log up a bit later. I have typed the introduction etc. up already and I do have a couple of questions so hopefully you blokes will be able to assist before I begin.

Thanks for your responses bro. You are repped.
I to have a serious fcuking problem with thinking about to much sh!t when I'm trying to crash. I think is probably just anxiety or stress, or anxiety about being stressed. lol.. Smoke one it helps. I mean, at least that's what my friend told me.lol ..

 

[Ziquor]

On a side note, what the hell's up with all the 'reppin' lately? It seems like a lot of people are running a political campain on here trying get repped by repping others. I thought AM was going to do away with the rep points long ago anyhow? Half the people on here think reps are to be added when someone makes a bad comment & the other half thinks the opposite.

 

[Schism]

On a side note, what the hell's up with all the 'reppin' lately? It seems like a lot of people are running a political campain on here trying get repped by repping others. I thought AM was going to do away with the rep points long ago anyhow? Half the people on here think reps are to be added when someone makes a bad comment & the other half thinks the opposite.

I don't know. I just like pushin buttons....repped. Fcuk, it won't let me repp you anymore....Now I'm just gonna push this button............................................................
..........................................................................
..........................................................................
.......................................................................................yea it's just not the same! lol

 

[Ziquor]

Start clickin on the red triangle on everyone's post's too, haha.

 

[Schism]

Start clickin on the red triangle on everyone's post's too, haha.

Haha, No Sh!t. I'm sure people are clickin on mine on my other thread. Fcuk I should have never started that one!

 

[Ziquor]

No, but I'm fightin with ya there brother. That's bullshi! for someone to criticize your thread when peoples health is at stake.

 

[Schism]

No, but I'm fightin with ya there brother. That's bullshi! for someone to criticize your thread when peoples health is at stake.

Thanks bro.
It seems like the only people getting their proverbial panties in a bunch are supp repps. And we all know they're more interested in keeping the public safe and informed than making money......right? Fcuk'em I aint scared.
Though I would prefer to not get banned today. lol....

 

[Ziquor]

Supp reps lately = big tobacco

 

[Schism]

Supp reps lately = big tobacco

No sh!t brother, you ain't lying. Soon they'll be putting nicotine in Superdrol if their not already!! I would not be at all surprised if some of these tobacco companies don't have a hand in some of the supp companies.

 

[Ziquor]

No sh!t brother, you ain't lying. Soon they'll be putting nicotine in Superdrol if their not already!! I would not be at all surprised if some of these tobacco companies don't have a hand in some of the supp companies.

Wow, I don't even wanna go there. That's a thought.

 

[poopypants]

Thanks bro.
It seems like the only people getting their proverbial panties in a bunch are supp repps. And we all know they're more interested in keeping the public safe and informed than making money......right? Fcuk'em I aint scared.
Though I would prefer to not get banned today. lol....

so you know bud most reps dont even get paid, they do this on their own time with close to zero compensation.... myself included.

I DO get free IBE supps but not anymore since the company is in a rears and has none to even give, havnt received any"incentive" since like last july.... I purley fight for what i belive is right and wrong AND THAT is wh i was chosen to be a rep, not cause im some schill who will tell you what the man wants you to hear.

 

[Schism]

Wow, I don't even wanna go there. That's a thought.

Yea, and a bad one! But these shell companies have to get their investors for somewhere, usually another/bigger supp company with no apparent ties to the shell. And I'm sure this is nothing new to you. But I wonder :think:

 

[Schism]

Anyways I'd like to get this thread back on track here. Or at least make some attempt to. lol.. Anyone out there got any experiences, good or bad in regards to their pcts?

 

[Ziquor]

so you know bud most reps dont even get paid, they do this on their own time with close to zero compensation.... myself included.

I DO get free IBE supps but not anymore since the company is in a rears and has none to even give, havnt received any"incentive" since like last july.... I purley fight for what i belive is right and wrong AND THAT is wh i was chosen to be a rep, not cause im some schill who will tell you what the man wants you to hear.

Hey Poopy. When I mentioned the above it was aimed sorta toward a specific someone, but not you in any way whatsoever. You seem to really know what your talkin about & have the experience to back it as well. But I believe it's somewhat true about certain people caring about the $$$ more so than what happens to peoples health. Even if not reps there are many people here on AM that do work for, and in some cases have ownership in, supplement companys. This is what I was aiming at. But back to the topic at hand I know you personally used Torem for your Epi cycle. How does it compare to Nolva? I heard it was stronger? I got my Nolva because it was a really great deal but am now wondering if I should've got Torem instead.

 

[Cub]

My Superdrol log is now up. I start on the 18th.

 

[Trauma1]

so you know bud most reps dont even get paid, they do this on their own time with close to zero compensation.... myself included.

I DO get free IBE supps but not anymore since the company is in a rears and has none to even give, havnt received any"incentive" since like last july.... I purley fight for what i belive is right and wrong AND THAT is wh i was chosen to be a rep, not cause im some schill who will tell you what the man wants you to hear.

Well said poop! :clap2: Just because you're a rep doesn't mean you abandon your beliefs or practices. I do this because i believe in RPN and all the products they put out. I myself am a health care professional myself and my job is to provide a service while being a patient advocate in the process. If i didn't trust or believe in what i'm doing, i wouldn't be doing it......period!!

 

[poopypants]

Hey Poopy. When I mentioned the above it was aimed sorta toward a specific someone, but not you in any way whatsoever. You seem to really know what your talkin about & have the experience to back it as well. But I believe it's somewhat true about certain people caring about the $$$ more so than what happens to peoples health. Even if not reps there are many people here on AM that do work for, and in some cases have ownership in, supplement companys. This is what I was aiming at. But back to the topic at hand I know you personally used Torem for your Epi cycle. How does it compare to Nolva? I heard it was stronger? I got my Nolva because it was a really great deal but am now wondering if I should've got Torem instead.

Actually... yes I "feel" torem is much better. At the very least its effects are much more noticable in a more shorter period of time. Although Ive used Nolva for both a standalone with Rebound XT (ATD) to get rid of gyno and also for a couple pct's and they all went off without a hitch. The nolva right now is dirt cheap especially in comparison to Torem. but I just like torem so damn much, the way it makes me feel, the quickness that i return to norm and the fact atht with this quickness I feel its easier to retain and even improve on my gains during pct as well.

I wouldnt go off and buy torem though If i were you (unless money isnt really an object for you) and just use your tamox, its def able to do the job... like I said though if money is no object then you can always just keep the nolva on hand for future use or on cycle use if you ever run something that aromatizes alot and grab some torem given this will be your first cycle and it would be nice to keep as muc gains as possible and make sure your PCT is pleasant.

 

[Ziquor]

Thanks Poopy, much help as always. Hey Trauma quick question on a side note... I got a couple Havoc's I'll use someday and RPN's stuff looks great from what I see & hear but what else do they make? I was looking for a website for them and all I found is a forum site. PS why'd you change your avy, because the Pats suck? hahaha :toofunny: j/k I don't even wanna get the started again.

 

[Trauma1]

Thanks Poopy, much help as always. Hey Trauma quick question on a side note... I got a couple Havoc's I'll use someday and RPN's stuff looks great from what I see & hear but what else do they make? I was looking for a website for them and all I found is a forum site. PS why'd you change your avy, because the Pats suck? hahaha :toofunny: j/k I don't even wanna get the started again.

What, you don't like my sexy new avy? :bb3: Don't make me bring brady back now hahaha .......The store is in the process of being set up actually. I encourage you to check out our AM forum in the mean time as well as the sticky's on our products. RPN has many great products to choose from. Hijack over, back to the topic at hand........

 

[glipp]

So what if you did a 6 week pulse of EPI. Would you feel a SERM was necessary for this? Dose no higher than 40 mg for example.

 

[poopypants]

So what if you did a 6 week pulse of EPI. Would you feel a SERM was necessary for this? Dose no higher than 40 mg for example.

depends how pulsy your pulsing it LOL

really though how many days a week are you pulsing and are you ramping up to 40mg?

Are you going to take an AI on your off days or a test booster? these are all things to take into consideration...

BUT in all honesty I doubt a SERM will be necessary, keep one on hand for the unknown but dont plan on using it, a small OTC post cycle therapy as insurance after the cycle will most likely set you straight if needed at all... again answer the questions above, Length, dosing schedule, possible HTPA/AI support supps alternated with pulse and I can help ya a lil more.

 

[glipp]

depends how pulsy your pulsing it LOL

really though how many days a week are you pulsing and are you ramping up to 40mg?

Are you going to take an AI on your off days or a test booster? these are all things to take into consideration...

BUT in all honesty I doubt a SERM will be necessary, keep one on hand for the unknown but dont plan on using it, a small OTC post cycle therapy as insurance after the cycle will most likely set you straight if needed at all... again answer the questions above, Length, dosing schedule, possible HTPA/AI support supps alternated with pulse and I can help ya a lil more.

This is what the idea is for 3x/ week dose schedule:

week 1 10, 20, 30
week 2 30, 30, 30
week 3 30, 30, 40
week 4 40, 40, 40
week 5 40, 40, 40
week 6 40, 40, 40

PCT would be
Post Cycle Support
Hyperdrol x-2
Formadrol extreme
X-Lean

Novedex X-T on off days. SERM on hand if needed. Is this sufficient?

 

[Schism]

This is what the idea is for 3x/ week dose schedule:

week 1 10, 20, 30
week 2 30, 30, 30
week 3 30, 30, 40
week 4 40, 40, 40
week 5 40, 40, 40
week 6 40, 40, 40

post cycle therapy would be
Post Cycle Support
Hyperdrol x-2
Formadrol extreme
X-Lean

Novedex X-T on off days. SERM on hand if needed. Is this sufficient?

This looks good to me.
Thanks for doing your own homework before posting. Though me personally, I would loose the formadrol extreme. As I have heard that product it sh!t. Everything else looks good and well thought out. Good job!

 

[Trauma1]

This is what the idea is for 3x/ week dose schedule:

week 1 10, 20, 30
week 2 30, 30, 30
week 3 30, 30, 40
week 4 40, 40, 40
week 5 40, 40, 40
week 6 40, 40, 40

post cycle therapy would be
Post Cycle Support
Hyperdrol x-2
Formadrol extreme
X-Lean

Novedex X-T on off days. SERM on hand if needed. Is this sufficient?

Cycle looks good, but formadrol extreme and Hyperdrol X-2 are both AI's, so using one should suffice. I'd maybe throw in some creatine in pct also. Otherwise it looks very solid.

 

[poopypants]

This is what the idea is for 3x/ week dose schedule:

week 1 10, 20, 30
week 2 30, 30, 30
week 3 30, 30, 40
week 4 40, 40, 40
week 5 40, 40, 40
week 6 40, 40, 40

post cycle therapy would be
Post Cycle Support
Hyperdrol x-2
Formadrol extreme
X-Lean

Novedex X-T on off days. SERM on hand if needed. Is this sufficient?

Already been said, sounds very solid. Just make sure that SERM is on hand for emergencies and your plan should go off with out a hitch.

I think Trauma1's suggestion of some creatine should def be just understood that after every cycle good creatine supplementation (even better with AP or PSLIN) is practically necessary for maintaining gains really well and will also give4 the chance to improve upon those gains during post cycle therapy (def will if combined with AP or Pslin..... or BOTH :twisted

 

[Schism]

Yes I agree, creatine and maybe some arginine. Many supps contain both so check that out.

 

[Trauma1]

I think Trauma1's suggestion of some creatine should def be just understood that after every cycle good creatine supplementation (even better with AP or PSLIN) is practically necessary for maintaining gains really well and will also give4 the chance to improve upon those gains during post cycle therapy (def will if combined with AP or Pslin..... or BOTH :twisted

x2 on the pslin and AP with creatine. I completely agree that in post cycle therapy creatine supplementation is a must. Adding in a little pslin, AP, or both will definatley make maintaining those gains much easier.

 

[Schism]

Still should this guy be all that concerned about loosing his gains? After all he's just doing a 3- a week pulse. And gains should be minimal, right-wrong?

 

[poopypants]

Still should this guy be all that concerned about loosing his gains? After all he's just doing a 3- a week pulse. And gains should be minimal, right-wrong?

well the idea with a pulse that the gains are much more maintainable yes, but its stil nice to err on the side of caution, 3 weeks of hard work is still 3 weeks of hard work and Id want to keep every hard earned ounce. So I think its not so much an issue of concern rather why not try to solidify if not continue to improve upon them?

 

[Trauma1]

Still should this guy be all that concerned about loosing his gains? After all he's just doing a 3- a week pulse. And gains should be minimal, right-wrong?

That's all dependant upon the individual and their response to the compound and method itself. Many factors will also play a role in the outcome with diet being one of the major ones. Some people will make better progress than others in a pulse. The key is nice slow lean gains while minimizing shutdown/side-effects. As poop said, anything that i gained and worked for i surely want to keep after post cycle therapy.

 

[Schism]

I agree with both of you.
I'm not big on the pulsing theory as it seems as though you would be taking your endocrine system for a roller coaster ride. But also I've never tried it. Maybe I'll give it a shoot with some of my epidrol. Any Suggestions?