Keeping During and After Post Cycle: Let's Get Down and Dirty!
12-20-2007 07:52 PM
12-26-2007 10:55 AM
if you're losing gains after post cycle therapy it means your PCT didn't work proplerly, if you're losing gains and putting on major fat it would seem taht you possibley have too high of estrogen in your body?? sounds like when you stop using the serm your body's estorgen is built up so once the serm is no longer protecting you from it your getting all sorts of trouble. there are a number of ways to deal with this, you can run arimidex for a maybe 2 weeks at low does before you end PCT or you could try the SERM inverse to the ATD as is posted about at the top of this PCT forum right now. i'm no expert on this but i'm sure you can find enough info on here to make your own decisions, i use tor for PCT with IGF and my last PCT went better then i could have imagined.
and to answer your original question, you should train and eat pretty much the same post cycle as you did before since we are assuming your body is back to normal. usually post cycle i use whatever naturual test boosters and whatever currently trendy naturual supp is in at the time just to keep myself amused
12-26-2007 10:56 AM
generaly while in PCT i eat as much as possible also to try to reduce cortisol. that may be another valuable chem to add to your PCT, some lean extreme or something.
12-26-2007 11:22 AM
I appreciate your response bro
My post cycle plan includes:
AI inverse to serm
Health support supplements for BP, liver, cholesterol
I totally see where you are coming from with estrogen and your thoughts do make sense. However, considering the aforementioned inclusions in my post cycle plan, I doubt that estrogen is the issue for me personally.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't blow up and get all estrogen puffy... I'm talking about maintaing lean mass from the cycle and gaining about 1-2 pounds bodyfat in the 4 week post cycle time frame.
Also something to consider is that I haven't mentioned that my cycle was halo, which shouldn't have substantial estrogen rebound. My cycle that is on the drawing board is phera which also SUPPOSEDLY does not aromatize (despite the common assumption that the occasional phera bloat is due to estrogen).
Any other thoughts?
12-26-2007 11:57 AM
i'm no doctor but the whole point of PCT is to bring your body back to how it was before your cycle, and if after your cycle your body is not acting normally (as it would had you never cycled) then you have some issues with your PCT or something else. i would suggest that the best thing to do would be to get a full blood test done to see where all the various hormones are at.
perhaps you have permanently shut yourself down and now you have quite low test levels?
perhaps you have some other health issue at work?
maybe you have a growth hormone/pituitary/thyroid issue you are not aware of?
sound like you have a good grasp of PCT but if your body is not acting normally after your PCT then by definition your PCT either didn't work or there is something else going on.
as far as gaining after PCT the only thing i do is train hard and eat as much as possible (pretty much the same as when training) IGF can be fun to use after PCT as it doesn't inhibit your testosterone or anything but you can make nice gains and feel like your still "on" but i would strongly suggest you figure out whatever is going on with your body first or in the long run you will just work your ass off and end up losing yoru gains anyway.
as a side note, i dont think doing cycles is even worth it without using HCG and using tor. if i use both of those and a little IGF i dont think i even lost a pound in my last PCT.
12-26-2007 11:58 AM
i also aim to keep my diet low in salt and painfully clean of bad fats in PCT too, i would say that putting on 1-2 lbs bodyfat in the month after PCT would probably fall into the normal range depending on the cycle done, if you logged your cycle post it up and maybe someone here can see whats going on?:bruce2:
12-26-2007 12:00 PM
i dont know how possible this is too but you may have gotten some bad stuff that you used in PCT, i have heard of people having all sorts of PCT issues only to later find out that they were sold garbage or that instead of nolva it was clenbuterol or something like that.....
12-26-2007 01:29 PM
Ya, I think the cycle and post cycle went well. I think the issue is AFTER post cycle, which is where I lost most of my gains. I ran MaxOT after post cycle. Some self analysis reveals that MaxOT just isn't enough volume for me. I got strong as heck but the lean mass just slowly dwindled to where I was before the cycle.
Originally Posted by neverstop
Here's my log. It's quite long so it might be better just to check out the summary post and final review (which is listed in one of the first 3 posts)
H-drol + E-form: Recomp Log
Interesting point. I felt as though my body didn't respond as strongly to toremefine as the general population reports on this forum.
Originally Posted by neverstop
01-08-2008 09:49 AM
01-08-2008 03:52 PM
Let me guess, IR?
Originally Posted by celc5
01-08-2008 04:40 PM
i have seen great results from IR products many times
01-08-2008 05:08 PM
I have to give the disclaimer that I had never sermed before AND I'd say I had absolutely minimal shudown/suppression on cycle... so take my opinion for what's it's worth. But, yes, you are correct.
Originally Posted by The_Reverend
That being said, do I have gyno? No, which makes me happy
I've also since learned that the serm effect on HPTA is blown out of proportion. Which makes me think, the serm probably wasn't the problem. That does not mean the door is shut on this particular theory, just that I'm leaning towards the culprit being some other problem with my diet or training.
01-08-2008 05:48 PM
What is the problem with IR? I have also used their products before and am just wondering if there is something that I dont know of.
Originally Posted by The_Reverend
01-08-2008 08:26 PM
other then IR taking forever to ship and never answering their phones and always being backordered, they are awesome, products are great and they have worked hard to provide products nobody else has. customer service however.... not the best, although i must say that in the end, they have ALWAYS made things right for me.
now back to topic!
01-08-2008 09:39 PM
I'm glad your experience was a good one. Sadly, I can't say the same. Running bunk product during PCT is not fun. I don't want to go into great detail so I'll leave it at that.
Originally Posted by Marsh11
01-08-2008 09:52 PM
Just to clarify, I don't think Reverend's point was to bash a specific site. In reality, every batch of research chems is a roll of the dice, no matter what site is chosen. That being said, we're rolling the dice with designers in order to keep it legal... the gamble continues into post cycle therapy
Originally Posted by The_Reverend
01-09-2008 04:07 AM
Get before cycle and after PCT blood work done, spring the extra cash for the androgens. Compare the 2 and see if your "minimal shudown/suppression" really is that. The only real way to know is though bloodwork.
01-09-2008 07:45 AM
Use a low dose of IGF-1 run at 10mg per day throughout post-cycle and in the months afterward. (this will supplement rather than shut-down your natural output)
At the end of your post cycle use low dose Nettle Root extract (divanil) daily and continue into the months afterward.
Consider using 12.5mcg of T3 per day after post cycle therapy. (this will supplement rather than shut-down your natural output)
Use substantial amount of BCAAs throughout.
After your post-cycle start using a Fiber Damage/ Fiber Saturation protocol as your training methodology.
Consider inducing controlled anabolism (Calories & BCAAs) on days you workout and controlled catabolism (Diet and lowering your blood sugar before you sleep - NOTE: You probably should be using IGF-1 if you take 20mg of Vanadyl Sulfate to lower your blood sugar to help preserve muscle) on days you have off. Your body wants to grow lean tissue for several days to a week after dropping a couple of pounds of weight.
This protocol in total works very, very well for me.
01-09-2008 10:12 AM
zpnq, you are 100% correct. It is unintelligent of me to claim minimal suppression without blood work.
Originally Posted by zpnq
datBtrue, I see where you're coming from. I may need to educate myself in this area.
01-09-2008 10:57 AM
Are you REALLY digressing back to before cycle? Have measurements or weight declined?
How's libido, drive, mood, etc? These are some important indicators of suppression.
I hit a "wall", but never really digress, ESPECIALLY when I back off the "muscle/strength" supplements (ie Creatine,beta-alanine, etc). I don't lose gains, but I just can't get past that "wall" as easily. There is nothing "wrong" it's just I'm relying on food (cals & protein UP), vitamins, EFA's, and caffeine for workouts/gains. I like to give my body a little break, save some money, push through workouts, THEN hit the supplements after a couple months. It's real nice to see the difference in my workouts/gains.
I remember one time thinking, "Is this creatine really working?". Stopped taken it at had the answer really quick.
My WOs are similar to MaxOT myself. The only thing I really change is pushing to 8 reps not 6 reps.
I use to strive (after warm up) NOT to go past 6 reps, but I was getting tendon soreness so my rep range (after warmup)is 8-4 to failure. Once I can push past 8 I up the weights.
Don't give up brother! Take a week off if you need. Recheck calories/protein/carbs/fat/nutrients. It's probably NOT as complicated as you think.
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