Why would someone use Resveratrol for PCT?

ulter

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Why would anyone use Resveratrol for a post cycle therapy product? It is more powerful than estrogen itself in some cases. Doesn't anyone research these things before they put them in a bottle and sell them? It's a horrible choice for PCT. Someone sent me a PM and told me about this so I came to correct a big mistake. Heads up.



Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound found in grapes and wine, is an agonist for the estrogen receptor

Barry D. Gehm, Joanne M. McAndrews, Pei-Yu Chien, and J. Larry Jameson
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Molecular Medicine, Northwestern University Medical School, 303 E. Chicago Avenue, Chicago, IL 60611


Communicated by Ernst Knobil, The University of Texas Health Science Center, Houston, TX, October 22, 1997 (received for review May 19, 1997)
The phytochemical resveratrol, which is found in grapes and wine, has been reported to have a variety of anti-inflammatory, anti-platelet, and anti-carcinogenic effects. Based on its structural similarity to diethylstilbestrol, a synthetic estrogen, we examined whether resveratrol might be a phytoestrogen. At concentrations (3-10 µM) comparable to those required for its other biological effects, resveratrol inhibited the binding of labeled estradiol to the estrogen receptor and it activated transcription of estrogen-responsive reporter genes transfected into human breast cancer cells. This transcriptional activation was estrogen receptor-dependent, required an estrogen response element in the reporter gene, and was inhibited by specific estrogen antagonists. In some cell types (e.g., MCF-7 cells), resveratrol functioned as a superagonist (i.e., produced a greater maximal transcriptional response than estradiol) whereas in others it produced activation equal to or less than that of estradiol. Resveratrol also increased the expression of native estrogen-regulated genes, and it stimulated the proliferation of estrogen-dependent T47D breast cancer cells. We conclude that resveratrol is a phytoestrogen and that it exhibits variable degrees of estrogen receptor agonism in different test systems. The estrogenic actions of resveratrol broaden the spectrum of its biological actions and may be relevant to the reported cardiovascular benefits of drinking wine.
 
bound

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I don't understand too much of this stuff. But there's at least a few people who have used Res for post cycle therapy and it seems to have worked, though I haven't seen any bloodwork posted from its stand alone usage. On the other hand we have statements from Dinoiii cautioning us about res because there seems to be some estrogenic thing going on that hasn't been looked into enough, yet. On the whole, I think it's just a case of it being a still new supp, and there is a lot of research, but not a lot of research into many of its characteristics.
With all that's going on with the steroid busts, and people being sketchy about ordering SERMS, a lot of folks are loving the research that is out on res acting like a serm. It's just too good looking to pass over. The usual reaction in our community to the godsend/next big thing. There's more research to be done, and we'll see, soon enough, what exactly is up with Resveratrol. You also can't discount the empyric evidence of it's Serm actions. There's a lot of supps and the like out there that the research doesn't support, but still seem to work. So who knows. There's plenty of us around here who're willing to be guinea pigs, so I'm pretty sure that we'll have a better idea than most of what it does.

P.S.-Welcome to the board. Brave first post!:head:
 
badfish51581

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I believe the below studies are some of the evidence for it's use in as a SERM - especially in PCT. The second study even mentions the mixed data and the "superestrogenic effects of resveratrol." Like other people mentioned, I think we have a good idea of what it probably does, but the verdict is still out.

Joe

trans-Resveratrol, a natural antioxidant from grapes, increases sperm output in healthy rats.Juan ME, González-Pons E, Munuera T, Ballester J, Rodríguez-Gil JE, Planas JM.
Departament de Fisiologia, Facultat de Farmàcia, Universitat de Barcelona, E-08028 Barcelona, Spain.

trans-Resveratrol was reported to have health benefits including anticarcinogenic effects and protection against cardiovascular disease. One of the mechanisms by which it exerts its action is through modulating the estrogen response systems. Because estrogen is involved in male reproductive biology, we investigated the effect of trans-resveratrol on testis and spermatogenesis. Adult male rats were divided into 2 groups. The treated group was administered by gavage 20 mg/(kg . d) of trans-resveratrol suspended in 10 g/L of carboxymethylcellulose for 90 d, whereas the control group received only carboxymethylcellulose during the same period. The relative weight of testes did not differ between the groups. However, the diameter of the seminiferous tubules was significantly reduced from 437.5 +/- 0.1 mum in the controls to 310.9 +/- 0.1 mum in the resveratrol-treated rats. This decrease was accompanied by a significant increase in tubular density, from 3.20 +/- 0.18 in controls to 6.58 +/- 0.18 tubules/mm(2) in the treated group. Moreover, sperm counts were significantly greater in the resveratrol-treated rats (24.8 +/- 3.30 x 10(7)) than in the control group (14.1 +/- 0.80 x 10(7)), but sperm quality did not differ. Serum concentrations of gonadotrophins and testosterone were significantly higher in the resveratrol-treated group. We identified a novel activity of trans-resveratrol. The daily oral administration of this phytochemical to adult male rats enhanced sperm production by stimulating the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, without inducing adverse effects.


Estrogenic and antiestrogenic properties of resveratrol in mammary tumor models.Bhat KP, Lantvit D, Christov K, Mehta RG, Moon RC, Pezzuto JM.
Program for Collaborative Research in the Pharmaceutical Sciences, Department of Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacognosy, College of Pharmacy, University of Illinois at Chicago, Chicago, Illinois 60612, USA.

Trans-3,4',5-trihydroxystilbene (resveratrol), a phytoalexin present in grapes and grape products such as wine, has been identified as a chemopreventive agent. Recent studies performed with MCF-7 human breast cancer cells have demonstrated superestrogenic effects with resveratrol. In contrast, studies performed using estrogen receptor-transfected cell lines have shown that resveratrol acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist. The major objective of this study was to characterize the estrogen-modulatory effects of resveratrol in a variety of in vitro and in vivo mammary models. Thus, the effect of resveratrol alone and in combination with 17beta-estradiol (E2) was assessed with MCF-7, T47D, LY2, and S30 mammary cancer cell lines. With cells transfected with reporter gene systems, the activation of estrogen response element-luciferase was studied, and using Western blot analysis, the expression of E2-responsive progesterone receptor (PR) and presnelin 2 protein was monitored. Furthermore, the effect of resveratrol on formation of preneoplastic lesions (induced by 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene) and PR expression (with or without E2) was evaluated with mammary glands of BALB/c mice placed in organ culture. Finally, the effect of p.o. administered resveratrol on N-methyl-N-nitrosourea-induced mammary tumors was studied in female Sprague Dawley rats. As a result, in transient transfection studies with MCF-7 cells, resveratrol showed a weak estrogenic response, but when resveratrol was combined with E2 (1 nM), a clear dose-dependent antagonism was observed. Similar mixed estrogenic/antiestrogenic effects were noted with S30 cells, whereas resveratrol functioned as a pure estrogen antagonist with T47D and LY2 cells. Furthermore, in MCF-7 cells, resveratrol induced PR protein expression, but when resveratrol was combined with E2, expression of PR was suppressed. With T47D cells, resveratrol significantly down-regulated steady-state and E2-induced protein levels of PR. With LY2 and S30 cells, resveratrol down-regulated presnelin 2 protein expression. Using the mouse mammary organ culture model, resveratrol induced PR when administered alone, but expression was suppressed in the presence of E2 (1 nM). Furthermore, resveratrol inhibited the formation of estrogen-dependent preneoplastic ductal lesions induced by 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene in these mammary glands (IC50 = 3.2 microM) and reduced N-methyl-N-nitrosourea-induced mammary tumorigenesis when administered to female Sprague Dawley rats by gavage. Therefore, in the absence of E2, resveratrol exerts mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist activities in some mammary cancer cell lines, but in the presence of E2, resveratrol functions as an antiestrogen. In rodent models, carcinogen-induced preneoplastic lesions and mammary tumors are inhibited. These data suggest that resveratrol may have beneficial effects if used as a chemopreventive agent for breast cancer.

The red wine polyphenol resveratrol displays bilevel inhibition on aromatase in breast cancer cells.Wang Y, Lee KW, Chan FL, Chen S, Leung LK.
Department of Biochemistry and Department of Anatomy, The Chinese University of Hong Kong, Shatin, N.T., Hong Kong.

Estrogen plays a crucial role in the development of breast cancer, and the inhibition of estrogen synthesis has been an important target for the prevention and treatment of this disease. The rate-limiting reaction of the hormone biosynthesis is catalyzed by cytochrome P450 (CYP) 19 enzyme or aromatase. It has been of genuine interest to uncover an aromatase-inhibitory compound from a dietary source. Resveratrol is a polyphenolic compound that can be isolated from grape peel. Because of its structural resemblance to estrogen, resveratrol's agonistic and antagonistic properties on estrogen receptor have been examined and demonstrated. In the present study, the effect of resveratrol on the expression and enzyme activity of aromatase was investigated. By assaying on MCF-7 cells stably transfected with CYP19 (MCF-7aro cells), resveratrol inhibited the aromatase activity with an IC(50) value of 25 microM. Kinetic analysis indicated that both competitive and noncompetitive inhibition might be involved. The administration of 10 nmol/l testosterone-a substrate of aromatase-produced a 50% increase in the MCF-7aro cell number. This cell proliferation specifically induced by testosterone was significantly reduced by 10 microM resveratrol. In addition, 50 microM resveratrol significantly reduced the CYP19-encoding mRNA abundance in SK-BR-3 cells. The transcriptional control of CYP19 gene is tissue specific, and promoter regions I.3 and II have previously been shown to be responsible for CYP19 expression in breast cancer cells. Luciferase reporter gene assays revealed that resveratrol could repress the transcriptional control dictated by the promoter regulation. The present study illustrated that pharmacological dosage of resveratrol inhibited aromatase at both the enzyme and mRNA levels.
 

ulter

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I see in the literature that there is conflicting data. But when you have research published by one of the top 20 medical schools in the country in the National Academy of Science Journal you have to take it pretty seriously. I can't imagine what would possess someone to blow past this kind of data and market this material for PCT. There is NOTHING that shows this material raises Test levels while there is data showing it's more powerful than Estradiol in breast tissue.

I agree that nearly 80% of the protocols we as AS users have adopted are due to anecdotal evidence that is self reported. But this just doesn't look to be a very wise jumping off point.
 
badfish51581

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In all honesty, I feel like you're gut instinct is legitimate.

I felt like the underlining tone of your message is: It's still too early to know exactly what trans-reservatrol does.

You're right, that there is conflicting data but, you're clinging to one study. The other three studies were all published medical studies - not anecdotal evidence off a supplement forum. You didn't address anything other refuting the other studies because they weren't from Northwestern.

What about the below statement from the second study (also from a university):

"Therefore, in the absence of E2, resveratrol exerts mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist activities in some mammary cancer cell lines, but in the presence of E2, resveratrol functions as an antiestrogen."

It seems to extrapolate on the study you cited. Accounting for it's estrogen "superagonist" effects, but also clarifying further the actions in which those effects take place - when estradiol is NOT present.

Thoughts?

Joe
 
badfish51581

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I see in the literature that there is conflicting data. But when you have research published by one of the top 20 medical schools in the country in the National Academy of Science Journal you have to take it pretty seriously. I can't imagine what would possess someone to blow past this kind of data and market this material for post cycle therapy. There is NOTHING that shows this material raises Test levels while there is data showing it's more powerful than Estradiol in breast tissue.

I agree that nearly 80% of the protocols we as AS users have adopted are due to anecdotal evidence that is self reported. But this just doesn't look to be a very wise jumping off point.
What about the first study and the resulting stimulation of HPTA in the rats?

Joe
 
bioman

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It is too early, I agree but then we have lots of 2 legged guinea pigs running around using it and testing it for us. :ntome:

Anecdotal reports look good thus far.
 
The_Reverend

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It is too early, I agree but then we have lots of 2 legged guinea pigs running around using it and testing it for us. :ntome:

Anecdotal reports look good thus far.
I just came off a 4 week cycle of epistane and used 6-oxo Extreme as part of my PCT which included Toremefine. It turned out the Toremefine was bunk (I.R)and the resveratrol wasn't quite enough to help me recover properly. My Epi cycle was 20,20,30,30. I dosed the 6-oxo at 10 caps a day which equals 1200mg of the resveratrol. I was able to get my hands on some real Toremefine and am now just starting to recover. Take this as you will.
 
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I just came off a 4 week cycle of epistane and used 6-oxo Extreme as part of my post cycle therapy which included Toremefine. It turned out the Toremefine was bunk (I.R)and the resveratrol wasn't quite enough to help me recover properly. My Epi cycle was 20,20,30,30. I dosed the 6-oxo at 10 caps a day which equals 1200mg of the resveratrol. I was able to get my hands on some real Toremefine and am now just starting to recover. Take this as you will.
what's the math to figure out the equivalent values of 6-oxo to resveratrol? And just to clarify, you're saying that you didn't start to recover until you started the Tor, right? Thanks.
 
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In looking up the 6-oxo, I ran across something funny. In the description on Nutra of regular 6-oxo, it says that resveratrol was debunked. Then of course you've got the 6-oxo Extreme, which has the Res in it.:think:
 
DMac

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Doesn't seem like anybody's gaining fat or getting gyno from it. If the great sex drive and stamina increase people are getting from Resveratrol is coming from estrogenic effects then maybe I'll start injecting some estrogen.
 
The_Reverend

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what's the math to figure out the equivalent values of 6-oxo to resveratrol? And just to clarify, you're saying that you didn't start to recover until you started the Tor, right? Thanks.
Thats exactly what I'm saying. I didn't want to find out this way but unfortunately I did.
 
strategicmove

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Resveratrol possess a lot of cool properties ranging from mimicking of the effects of calorie restriction, supporting of favourable gene expression, optimization of insulin metabolism (long-term activation of AMP-activated kinase enzyme), optimization of cardiovascular function, preservation of glutathione levels, promotion of cholesterol metabolism, and functioning as a selective estrogen receptor modulator.

Few other compounds can claim anything close to this versatility.

There is no doubt that research studies are crucial in clarifying the exact functioning and significance, or otherwise, of different compounds. Yet, in my opinion, one should consume research studies critically. Who funds the research is often more significant than in which journals the research is published. Finally, if we want to insist on studies to decide on which compounds work and which don't (which is a good thing to do), then we must insist on looking only at studies carried out under the only "gold standard" accepted in the medical community: double-blind placebo-controlled study.
 
The_Reverend

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Resveratrol possess a lot of cool properties ranging from mimicking of the effects of calorie restriction, supporting of favourable gene expression, optimization of insulin metabolism (long-term activation of AMP-activated kinase enzyme), optimization of cardiovascular function, preservation of glutathione levels, promotion of cholesterol metabolism, and functioning as a selective estrogen receptor modulator.

Few other compounds can claim anything close to this versatility.

There is no doubt that research studies are crucial in clarifying the exact functioning and significance, or otherwise, of different compounds. Yet, in my opinion, one should consume research studies critically. Who funds the research is often more significant than in which journals the research is published. Finally, if we want to insist on studies to decide on which compounds work and which don't (which is a good thing to do), then we must insist on looking only at studies carried out under the only "gold standard" accepted in the medical community: double-blind placebo-controlled study.
Good post man.

Even more important is that fact that everyone responds a little differently to these compounds. Some may respond well while others not at all.
 
strategicmove

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Even more important is that fact that everyone responds a little differently to these compounds. Some may respond well while others not at all.
Agree. That's a point that is not always given due consideration.
 

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