Trans-Resveratrol

[smokey the bear]

I have researched resveratrol, and its potential effects both during and post cycle. I just don't know about any actual in vivo studies done on human males, which specifically measures changes in sex hormone levels. Mice vs Men??? How much do these studies really apply to us?

First of all, i have two main interests in this naturally occurring phytochemical. The first deals with resveratrols supposed effects as a SERM. Has anyone here actually tried using it as a standalone SERM for pct? Or heard of someone who can provide some anecdotal evidence to its effects?

My second interest in resveratrol is its potential to limit or negate the effects that steroids such as DMT have on cardiac hypertrophy. So, does anyone have any feedback or ideas about its use in this area either??

Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[EasyEJL]

Well, some people have used Dermacrine Sustain for PCT, and its seemed to work out well. Also I think a few people are starting to use Post Cycle Support, but i'm not sure if anyone has gone thru a whole PCT with it yet.

There also are some documented human studies on sperm count only, but it was as effective on humans as it was on mice.

 

[badfish51581]

Check that out...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/77521-dermacrine-sustain-post.html

I have researched resveratrol, and its potential effects both during and post cycle. I just don't know about any actual in vivo studies done on human males, which specifically measures changes in sex hormone levels. Mice vs Men??? How much do these studies really apply to us?

First of all, i have two main interests in this naturally occurring phytochemical. The first deals with resveratrols supposed effects as a SERM. Has anyone here actually tried using it as a standalone SERM for post cycle therapy? Or heard of someone who can provide some anecdotal evidence to its effects?

My second interest in resveratrol is its potential to limit or negate the effects that steroids such as DMT have on cardiac hypertrophy. So, does anyone have any feedback or ideas about its use in this area either??

Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[CROWLER]

You can take a look here also.

Of course not a clinical study in any way shape or form. Just some feedback from fellow board members who paid for their POST Cycle Support themselves.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-innovations/77479-post-cycle-support-2.html


CROWLER

 

[smokey the bear]

crowler and badfish, thank you for posting the links..

However, I did notice that the majority of the reference's regarding resveratrol were in response to Anabolic Innovations new product Post Cycle Support... That is of course because PCS contains resveratrol.. But most of the user comments are in regard to libido.. which, in this case i do not attribute to the resveratrol, but the high dose of icariin (from horny goat weed)..

It was nice to see that when used at the recommended dose,(given that it was stacked with derm.sustain) PSC did seem to bring back testicular size in a fellow board member. But it is worth saying that the size of the testis does not directly correlate to testosterone production.

I will research this further... But, i am very interested to see where resveratrols SERM, or SERM 'like' effects exert themselves, IE: breast or brain tissue, or both........

----just a note----
I have already personally put together my own Post Cycle Support supplement containing resveratrol.. I call mine BALANCE. It is comprised of;

1200mg Trans-Resveratrol(50%)
1200mg Quercetin(95%)
400mg DIM - diindolymethane
30mg Piperdine(95%)

3 "000" caps = 1 serving... 2 serving daily

Almost identical to the Anabolic Innovations product, except replaced the icariin with DIM... I do not like to totally eliminate any hormone for any reason. That goes for estrogen too. Both during and after a cycle. So, if i use any AI it will be at a low dose. The DIM promotes estrogen balance/metabolism, keeping the "good" e. while controlling the "bad" e. The purpose of the product is to restore hormonal BALANCE post cycle.....

 

[zpnq]

crowler and badfish, thank you for posting the links..

However, I did notice that the majority of the reference's regarding resveratrol were in response to Anabolic Innovations new product Post Cycle Support... That is of course because PCS contains resveratrol.. But most of the user comments are in regard to libido.. which, in this case i do not attribute to the resveratrol, but the high dose of icariin (from horny goat weed)..

It was nice to see that when used at the recommended dose,(given that it was stacked with derm.sustain) PSC did seem to bring back testicular size in a fellow board member. But it is worth saying that the size of the testis does not directly correlate to testosterone production.

I will research this further... But, i am very interested to see where resveratrols SERM, or SERM 'like' effects exert themselves, IE: breast or brain tissue, or both........

----just a note----
I have already personally put together my own Post Cycle Support supplement containing resveratrol.. I call mine BALANCE. It is comprised of;

1200mg Trans-Resveratrol(50%)
1200mg Quercetin(95%)
400mg DIM - diindolymethane
30mg Piperdine(95%)

3 "000" caps = 1 serving... 2 serving daily

Almost identical to the Anabolic Innovations product, except replaced the icariin with DIM... I do not like to totally eliminate any hormone for any reason. That goes for estrogen too. Both during and after a cycle. So, if i use any AI it will be at a low dose. The DIM promotes estrogen balance/metabolism, keeping the "good" e. while controlling the "bad" e. The purpose of the product is to restore hormonal BALANCE post cycle.....

I have been considering something similar to this myself, using 6-oxo extreme(pricey)

Vitamin B6(as Pyridoxine HCL) 3.5mg 175%
Magnesium(as Aspartate) 150mg 38%
Zinc(as L-Monomethionine & Aspartate) 10mg 67%
6-OXO(as 4-Etioallocholen-3,6, 17-Trione) 300mg *
Quercetin 600mg *
Resveratrol50% 1200mg *
Piperine50%(Black Pepper Extract)

DIM, and ALRI restore.

Derm Sust has been reported very successful (on other boards) as a "standalone" (SERM replacement) in postcycle therapy. Guys are reporting it as working just as well as nolva but none of the nasty toxic side effects.....so i suppose its working better . I am interested to see if Resveratrol works as well taken orally.

It is the 3rd week of a 6 week Epi pulse and will be using only 6-oxo extreme along with restore during post cycle. This is like a test for me as the cycle is very mild and will have very little shutdown.

If it all goes well next time it'll be 40 days of Adrenosterone at 450mg a day with epi pulsing for 6 weeks along side. This will be more suppressive and this is where i'll try 6-oxo , restore and DIM.

Let us know how "Balance" works for you .

Regards,

zpnq.

 

[smokey the bear]

Zp, that looks like a pretty solid 'natural' pct...

I typically just use zinc by itself, rather than a ZMA supplement. Mostly because the studies I’ve found are only in reference to zinc deficiencies causing a decrease in testosterone production, not zinc,mag,and b6...plus, I drink allot of milk, so calcium and magnesium will compete for absorption anyways...

Derm.sustain is just resveratrol, chrysin, and benzoflavone transdermal... Delivering these phytochemicals through the skin is a great idea, seeing as they all have poor oral bioavailability... I don’t know much about benzoflavone, but some quick searches brought up some interesting studies.

So, I have found that resveratrol exhibited its binding affinity to the estrogen receptors in breast, prostate, and uterine tissues. These characteristics are more similar to that of nolva, and not so much clomid(which also binds in brain tissue). Therefore, I hypothesize that the SERM effects of resveratrol, like nolva, are slower acting on the Hpta than clomid. I also think that with resveratrols non-toxic antioxidant properties would make it ideal to use on cycle to combat gyno, and possibly slow the inhibition of the Hpta.

Resveratrol has 90X less binding affinity for the estrogen receptor than nolva, and 30x less than clomid... this information helps us immensely when it come to figuring out an effective dose of resveratrol, compared to that of the most widely used SERM's. The correlation between nolva and clomid doses vs. binding affinity can clearly be seen in relation to anecdotal recommendation for the two... for example:

Typical 4 week pct protocol
(Remember, nolva has 3x the ER binding affinity as clomid)

wk1)nolva 40mg
wk2)nolva 30mg
wk3)nolva 20mg
wk4)nolva 10mg
Compared to a clomid based pct
wk1)clomid 150mg
wk2)clomid 100mg
wk3)clomid 75mg
wk4)clomid 50mg

These dosing regimens seem to be rather typical in regards to administration in pct. It dose appear that there is a correlation between the typically advised dosing, and the ER affinity.

So, by following this pattern we may be better equipped at finding an effective dose of resveratrol. So, let’s do the math...

Nolva=N, Resveratrol=R: Nx90=R, if N=40 what is R?
40x90=3600

According to these calculations based on the binding affinity to the estrogen receptor, I conclude that in order to achieve an effect similar to that of 40mg of Nolvadex, one must consume 3600mg of resveratrol daily.

Remember, the resveratrol being used in products such as Anabolic Innovations POST Cycle Support is standardized at 50%. Therefore, you must use a total of 7200mg daily to achieve the 40mg nolva equivalent.
:type:

 

[zpnq]

Remember, the resveratrol being used in products such as Anabolic Innovations POST Cycle Support is standardized at 50%. Therefore, you must use a total of 7200mg daily to achieve the 40mg nolva equivalent.
:type:

YIKES!

thats a whole lot of trans resv

 

[EasyEJL]

well, but there is evidence that as low as 10mg of nolva is able to restore HTPA as well.... and given lack of toxicity, resveratrol is something you could take year round. so at 1/4 that dosage we are talking only 1800mg of 50% a day. I was taking twice that much for a couple months, just to match the rat dosing used in studies corrected for metabolism. So I was reaching 2g ACTIVE (4g 50%) daily. Was great

 

[smokey the bear]

Im pretty sure that resveratrols effects in a lower dose will be slow acting and more pronounced over a long period time..

 

[smokey the bear]

Im just hoping that someone more knowledgeable than i would jump in and tell me that my logic is flawed or something...Damn it!! i want to believe!!! But dosing 7.6 grams ED is unrealistic and not cost effective at all.

 

[smokey the bear]

Little update... I have some anecdotal feedback regarding the product BALANCE that i mentioned earlier.. I have been taking just one serving(only 600mg res.) daily before sleep for the past 5 days. I noticed a pretty significant increase in the size of both testicles after only 3 days. The size was maintained for another 2 days, putting me at day 5. I plan to continue taking one single dose before sleep for the next 9 days. I will then make note of any effects that may be attributed to this type of resveratrol based product.

 

[bound]

subbed

 

[beebab]

subb'd as well, i'm very interested to see some experimenting with reservatrol. especially in a full post cycle therapy type setting. i wonder if double or triple dosing trans-reservatrol ED after an Epi cycle... or even an M-Drol cycle, might be enough to restore HPTA function as well as a chemical SERM. if combined with a product like Dermacrine Sustain as well. there's lots of room for study here.

 

[CROWLER]

I don't believe that the trans-resveratrol needs to be double or triple dosed at all when using POST Cycle Support with the usual Epistane cycle.

POST Cycle Support was developed by The Sinner, whose posts/articles are here on this board, specifically to be used with Epistane/Havoc type cycles. We dosed it so it would do what he wanted it to do.

We make our products so they work at the dosages listed on the label. This makes good sense to me and saves people some money instead of us encouraging people to double and triple dose.


CROWLER

 

[smokey the bear]

I don't believe that the trans-resveratrol needs to be double or triple dosed at all when using POST Cycle Support with the usual Epistane cycle.

POST Cycle Support was developed by The Sinner, whose posts/articles are here on this board, specifically to be used with Epistane/Havoc type cycles. We dosed it so it would do what he wanted it to do.

We make our products so they work at the dosages listed on the label. This makes good sense to me and saves people some money instead of us encouraging people to double and triple dose.


CROWLER

I think you may be misunderstanding my intension's my friend... I was just identifying some of the actual studies done on resveratrol that focused on its use as a SERM. I hypothesized that the dose of resveratrol, in comparison to the post cycle therapy dosing of Nolvadex and Clomid, is based on the estrogen receptor affinity of each compound, that being a 90:1 and 30:1 ratio. respectively.

I in no way were my intension's to suggested that anyone go out and take 3600mg of pure resveratrol daily..my thought proccess may have some flaws in reasoning, but the pattern that I've identified seems to makes sense. And as of right now, i have not found, nor have been presented with any information which suggests otherwise.

I do see that i used your products name in reference to one of its main ingredients. If my statements mislead you to believe that i was trying to knock your product, this is actually the opposite of the truth. I bought Post Cycle Support because it seemed to truly be an anabolic innovation, so to speak. I am actually quite inspired by your companies contribution to the supplement industry... So much so, that i started this thread...

 

[Eric Potratz]

This is a good topic.

Smokey, where did you get the info the nolva binds 90x more than resveratrol?

-Pp

 

[CROWLER]

I think you may be misunderstanding my intension's my friend... I was just identifying some of the actual studies done on resveratrol that focused on its use as a SERM. I hypothesized that the dose of resveratrol, in comparison to the post cycle therapy dosing of Nolvadex and Clomid, is based on the estrogen receptor affinity of each compound, that being a 90:1 and 30:1 ratio. respectively.

I in no way were my intension's to suggested that anyone go out and take 3600mg of pure resveratrol daily..my thought proccess may have some flaws in reasoning, but the pattern that I've identified seems to makes sense. And as of right now, i have not found, nor have been presented with any information which suggests otherwise.

I do see that i used your products name in reference to one of its main ingredients. If my statements mislead you to believe that i was trying to knock your product, this is actually the opposite of the truth. I bought Post Cycle Support because it seemed to truly be an anabolic innovation, so to speak. I am actually quite inspired by your companies contribution to the supplement industry... So much so, that i started this thread...

No worries buddy. Actually I was posting about something Beebap said not you

Thank you very much for the post and your purchase!

I have had reports from people stacking POST Cycle Support and Primordial Performance trans dermal product getting GREAT results.


CROWLER

 

[bound]

Here's Botch's PCT thread if you guys haven't seen it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/77521-dermacrine-sustain-post.html

He used the Post cycle support and dermacrine sustain without a traditional serm.

 

[smokey the bear]

This is a good topic.

Smokey, where did you get the info the nolva binds 90x more than resveratrol?

-Pp

Is this a serious question, or are you f*cking with me???seriously?

 

[Eric Potratz]

Is this a serious question, or are you f*cking with me???seriously?

I was the first to propose this potency comparison for BB's… so I was just curious as to where you heard this. Just wondering if someone else was on my tail. ;-)

-Pp

 

[smokey the bear]

I was the first to propose this potency comparison for BB's… so I was just curious as to where you heard this. Just wondering if someone else was on my tail. ;-)

-Pp

Pleased to see that you have tuned in to our discussion MR."everything thats wrong with your pct"....I respect your humble approach..

Yet, i do have a question. How did you actually deduce the ER affinity from the results of that comparative study? Wasn't the study done to compare the effectiveness of the testing procedure, not the actual compounds? I probably need to go back and review it once more, maybe there was something i missed.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Pleased to see that you have tuned in to our discussion MR."everything thats wrong with your post cycle therapy"....I respect your humble approach..

Yet, i do have a question. How did you actually deduce the ER affinity from the results of that comparative study? Wasn't the study done to compare the effectiveness of the testing procedure, not the actual compounds? I probably need to go back and review it once more, maybe there was something i missed.

You will need the full text to see the results, but they actualy do a comparison of estrogenic potency. Id have to dig up the study myself to figure the exact math again.

-Pp

 

[smokey the bear]

Three weeks ago i began taking resveratrol(50%extract) on a daily basis. I took 300mg(50%) for three days, 600mg for 7 days, 1200mg for seven days, and 1500mg for an additional three days. Every dose was taken prior to sleep. The purpose was to simply evaluate my own personal response to this substance, at varying doses. This was NOT taken as a post cycle therapy aid, but administered to see its effects were on a healthy homeostatic body. Unfortunately the resveratrol was also mixed with quercetin and DIM, so its effects cannot really be distinguished and isolated from the other substances which were being taken simultaneously. The only other supplement or otc's were a multi-vitamin with additional vitamin-c(as calcium asorbate). Diet and lifestyle were all consistent throughout.

My Experience: Within the first three days of taking only 300mg(res), i noticed an increase in "fullness" of the area surrounding the testis. no other significant changes.
Within five days of raising the dose to 600mg, i noticed that my testicles seemed to be growing in size, about 10% larger than normal. I will also note that the growth seemed to be at both ends of the testicles, making them more of an elongated oval shape instead of an egg shape. My semen volume seemed to increase accordingly. I also felt that my cardio-respiratory endurance had improved.
When the dose was bumped up to 1200mg my testicles seemed to become even larger, another 5% up in size. They also felt as if they were heavier. i know that is a weird statement but when i checked them out, they literally felt as if they were denser and heavier. The cardio improvements also remained. I felt slightly more energized than normal.
The effects were consistent until about day six of 1200mg. on day six and seven the "fullness" seemed to decrease.
So, i upped the dose to 1500mg for a three day stint. I noticed that the "fullness" came right back upon doing this. No additional effects were noticed.

I had no increase in libido whatsoever. I also had no increase in acne(may have actually reduced it), or oily skin. I did notice that my bodily hair and finger/toe nails seemed to grow at a much faster rate than normal. My sleep was not effected, even when taking the resveratrol at night.

It has been about a week since i stopped taking the res. Almost immediately upon stopping, i got a pretty bad acne breakout. My hair and nail growth has already seemed to slow to a normal rate. My cardio still feel like it is elevated, i have better endurance and less hypertension (naturally high BP).

My body seemed to build a tolerance to the resveratrol fairly quickly. I did increase the doses somewhat hastily though. At a moderate dose, I think that this would be an excellent addition to any PCT. At a high dose it may be effective as the base of a PCT for mild steroid cycles like halodrol, epistane, and most pulses cycles.

 

[aquanutz]

That is awesome! What brand resveratrol did you use?

 

[zpnq]

My body seemed to build a tolerance to the resveratrol fairly quickly. I did increase the doses somewhat hastily though. At a moderate dose, I think that this would be an excellent addition to any post cycle therapy. At a high dose it may be effective as the base of a PCT for mild steroid cycles like halodrol, epistane, and most pulses cycles.

Interesting. I didnt know the body builds a tolerance to Trans-resveratrol. This is very handy too know when building a PCT with it . Is this well known or are you basing it on your experience here?

kind regards,

zpnq

 

[smokey the bear]

zpnq, it was simply an observation. Absolutely no hard evidence whatsoever. I must reiterate though, in reflection, i think i may have been able to progressively increase the dosages at a much slower rate than i did. Before taking it, i was thinking that resveratrol would most ideally be used at a low-moderate dose for a long period of time. In my SHORT and LIMITED experience, i think that its testosterone stimulating effects are easily sustained for the length of a typical Post Cycle Therapy. I also maintain that its other health benifits may remain effective with long duration use.

 

[RoidGracie]

sub'd for updates, I'm about 3 weeks into PCS myself.

 

[smokey the bear]

sub'd for updates, I'm about 3 weeks into PCS myself.

What is your experience thus far after three weeks of use? What does your overall PCT plan look like?? What kind of cycle did you run???

 

[RoidGracie]

Last was a 4 weeker of winztrol, not very effective. Pct started with 6-oxo but I dropped that when I learned about PCS. Started PCS at about week 3 along with HyperTest, dropped the Hypertest about 2 weeks after that but have been continuing along with just PCS now. I think I've been hormonally messed up for years, since I came off propecia, then ran 1-AD for a couple cycles, no PCT other than 6-oxo so, I really don't feel much after the PCS thus far. However, my "boys" are fuller. I know the right thing to do is get some blood work done...but I'm lazy. Oh yeah, I'm doing some DHEA now for a few weeks, along with the PCS. After that, taking 3 weeks off all sups and giving an Oxy cycle a run.

 

[RoidGracie]

I don't lift like most here(very sporadic and usually just a few exercises per workout) but have great muscle memory from earlier years. Without lifting I have 16+ arms and can take a year off, train for a week or two and still have a 250+ bench. Diet is so, so. Weight varies from 185 up to 200 sometimes. I was about 200 after the winztrol, now I'm back down to 195 but I could easily lose 10+ pounds of flab. I want to see companies put some effort into mimicing serms, like they did for the juice. The whole point is, people like me want to stay "legal" that is why they do the things, they don't want to have to then go get nolva or clomid...I know most would say, that's dumb, doesn't matter if the supp is legal or not, it still requires a serm and you shouldn't do it. But you understand my point, many want to do the supplement without having to be "illegal" to find a serm. I won't get into the legality of using serms and using the research defense, that doesn't cut it.
Cheers

 

[Hollidae]

great post

 

[StellaArtois]

I don't lift like most here(very sporadic and usually just a few exercises per workout) but have great muscle memory from earlier years. Without lifting I have 16+ arms and can take a year off, train for a week or two and still have a 250+ bench. Diet is so, so. Weight varies from 185 up to 200 sometimes. I was about 200 after the winztrol, now I'm back down to 195 but I could easily lose 10+ pounds of flab. I want to see companies put some effort into mimicing serms, like they did for the juice. The whole point is, people like me want to stay "legal" that is why they do the things, they don't want to have to then go get nolva or clomid...I know most would say, that's dumb, doesn't matter if the supp is legal or not, it still requires a serm and you shouldn't do it. But you understand my point, many want to do the supplement without having to be "illegal" to find a serm. I won't get into the legality of using serms and using the research defense, that doesn't cut it.
Cheers

did you get blood work?

 

[aquanutz]

did you get blood work?

Look at the way he cycles, do you think he got bloodwork?

 

[neoborn]

Look at the way he cycles, do you think he got bloodwork?

:toofunny:

 

[bound]

Look at the way he cycles, do you think he got bloodwork?

nice.

 

[RoidGracie]

Where did you see anything about my cycling? You are correct, no blood work. I should, because something definitely isn't 100% but that could be from past finasteride use, biggest mistake. I'm finishing PCS tomorrow, I have my balls, I have no gyno. I'll take another 30 days off and then I'm going to give a 6 week Oxy pulse a run...I'm so tired of hearing Oxy slammed that I just have to give it a try. This will be at the 3 EOD M-W-F unless I feel the urge to bump to 4. We'll see what happens.
cheers

 

[RoidGracie]

Besides, PCS is a serm....so I hear. So, I'm not that ignorant, I'm using a serm. Besides, I was shooting blanks from 1-AD before some of you could spell andro.

What was this thread title again? Trans-Res right....good stuff, I think, not sure though. Somebody get some damn blood work done already.

 

[neoborn]

Bloodwork and a full hormone panel are your friends to longevity and quality of life!

Bloodwork - Complete Panel Blood Test & Comprehensive Thyroid Panel.

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA “Free and Loosely Bound”)
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• SHBG
• DHT
• Estradiol (specify “ultrasensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• T7 Comprehensive Thyroid Panel

 

[RoidGracie]

Absolutely NEO, no debate there. I'd venture to guess it's a small amount that actually do get the tests done, myself included. I think my issues are probably related to about 2 to 2 1/2 years use of propecia and from what I've read, many claim to have suffered irreversible effects. It can't be healthy to just wipe out all your DHT. I wish I had known about HPTA all those years ago, never would have touched propecia. Now, somebody get a product to replace Nolva, Clomid, etc, that sells OTC and you will be one wealthy individual. I'm waiting to see some test results from PCS alone in PCT, some before and after values.
Cheers
:type:

 

[EasyEJL]

I won't have before/afters for post cycle support, but will for Dermacrine sustain.. I only tested t, e2, LH and FSH due to financial constraints. Tested them pre-cycle, and will test again after pct

 

[StellaArtois]

I won't have before/afters for post cycle support, but will for Dermacrine sustain.. I only tested t, e2, LH and FSH due to financial constraints. Tested them pre-cycle, and will test again after post cycle therapy

post a link in here when you do, so i could check it out

 

[EasyEJL]

for sure! I still have 3 weeks on cycle left, so it will be a while. and should end up as a pretty suppressive cycle, 9 weeks of 1-t at 660mg/day with the last 3 1/2 weeks adding superdrol, 12.5mg for the first few days, then maybe 20 for an additional 10, and 25 for the last 10. I've got a mix of leftover superdrols, some of the designer supplements, 12.5s, some ax + sns in 10s.