HCG which method is best!!!

[andros]

I'm confused on HCG!!

If I want to run test for 13 weeks as part of a larger stack. What is the best way to run HCG to get back quickly (I had test atrophy doing 320 IOU 2x week for 16 weeks on my last cycle):

1 - 13weeks HCG at 250 IU per day
2 - 13weeks HCG at 250 IU 3 x week
3 - last 4 weeks of cycle HCG at 250 IU per day
4 - last 4 weeks of cycle HCG at 250 IU 3 x week

Too many protocols say various things, i hope there is one of you guys who really know what you're talking about and would help spreading the knowledge! =)

 

[comacho]

i agree with you, too many protocols over too many years.

i have never seen one solid PCT protocol that is fool proof. everyone had their own method.

i suggest you experiment on your own, sorry no good info from me.

out of your four options. i would choose 3. thats just me.

 

[spiderman7]

Bump.
This is a topic worth discussing. I too ran 250iu x2 tru out a cycle with not much or any difference. Anyone out there have a good protocol.

 

[drguitar78]

out of your four options. i would choose 3. thats just me.

I would not take HCG daily. HCG has a half life of more than a day, which means daily injections would not give your testes a break like is normally experienced with endogenous cyclic LH levels (which you're trying to mimic with HCG). Overuse of HCG has been shown to lead to LH receptor down-regulation...This is BAD if you're trying to recover you're natural test production...You'd actually be working against yourself by making your testes less sensitive to your natural LH levels once they pick back up after your cycle.

I would go with a e3d approach instead, to help avoid LH desensitization. I'm not sure about how long you can wait until using HCG....

I'm facing that issue right now, but don't really have a choice, because I started a test/Eq cycle a month ago and didn't get my HCG until today (stupid move to start cycle before having all ancillaries, but sh!t happens...lessons are learned). I'm running (250mg TE/200mg Eq) E4D, and plan on running a 10 week cycle. I know a lot of guys would say I don't need HCG for this cycle, but I want a seamless transition with minimal losses at the end.

So I'm considering running HCG E3d for the last 4 weeks of my cycle. Not sure about the dose yet though...any help would be appreciated...I weigh 180 now...trying to hit 200 by end of cycle

Also...I'm thinking of using dermacrine sustain instead of clomid to avoid possible carcinogenic effects...but I'm not sure if this will be an adequate substitute...anybody have advice?

 

[Eric Potratz]

2x a week at 250iu is the best protocol IMO. This keeps the testes active without down regulating leydig receptors. This should make for a much quicker recovery come PCT.

Its best to start the hCG 2 weeks into the cycle and drop it about 2 weeks before your done with the cycle. (or 2 weeks before the long acting ester clear out) This will allow your leydigs to resensitize again for LH stimulation once you start PCT.

I’ve had plenty of guys follow this protocol and then run a Sustain only PCT. They’ve said its the best recovery they’ve ever had. You will get a lot more feedback on this over on Elite.

-Pp

 

[drguitar78]

2x a week at 250iu is the best protocol IMO. This keeps the testes active without down regulating leydig receptors. This should make for a much quicker recovery come post cycle therapy.

Its best to start the hCG 2 weeks into the cycle and drop it about 2 weeks before your done with the cycle. (or 2 weeks before the long acting ester clear out) This will allow your leydigs to resensitize again for LH stimulation once you start PCT.

I’ve had plenty of guys follow this protocol and then run a Sustain only PCT. They’ve said its the best recovery they’ve ever had. You will get a lot more feedback on this over on Elite.

-Pp

Hey there's the man I'm looking for....

I was wanting to do that, but my HCG didn't come in time (stupid for me to start without in hand, but lesson learned).

I'm running 250mgTE/200mgEq e4d in week 4 right now, and just got my HCG. Do you suggest I do anything different than what you suggested above? I will be running 10 or so weeks.

I have the Derm Sust for PCT...what protocol do you suggest?

I am strongly considering running toremifene for PCT too with X-Lean and Humanatest for cortisol-blocking and natural test booster.

Any suggestions?

You say that guys have major success with only derm sust...but in my case (2 weeks late on the HCG), would I need a slightly more rigorous PCT?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Eric Potratz]

If you’ve been on for 4 weeks now you have lost a little sensitivity. Start out with 500iu for your first 2 shots then move back down to the 250iu doses.

Wait 3 weeks after your last shot to start the Dermacrine Sustain. Run this at 5 pumps for 30 days. A low dose run of toremifene is not a bad idea, but be careful of the anti-cortisol sups. IMO, you don’t want to be running any 7-keto DHEA metabolites for PCT as then can negatively influence your HTPA and lower your LH release. These sups are better suited as a cycle finisher (while your AAS are clearing) or for a cutting cycle.

If you want cortisol control for PCT, get some phosphatydlserine. If you want an additional T boost then make sure you get one of the non-steroidal/hormonal products. (such as the ATD, forme, 6-bromo, sups)

-Pp

 

[drguitar78]

If you’ve been on for 4 weeks now you have lost a little sensitivity. Start out with 500iu for your first 2 shots then move back down to the 250iu doses.

Wait 3 weeks after your last shot to start the Dermacrine Sustain. Run this at 5 pumps for 30 days. A low dose run of toremifene is not a bad idea, but be careful of the anti-cortisol sups. IMO, you don’t want to be running any 7-keto DHEA metabolites for post cycle therapy as then can negatively influence your HTPA and lower your LH release. These sups are better suited as a cycle finisher (while your anabolic steroids are clearing) or for a cutting cycle.

If you want cortisol control for PCT, get some phosphatydlserine. If you want an additional T boost then make sure you get one of the non-steroidal/hormonal products. (such as the ATD, forme, 6-bromo, sups)

-Pp

That makes sense, thanks...

Is it OK to mix the HCG in the syringe with my oilbased goodies, or do you suggest shooting separately...figured I'd kill two birds with one needle since I'm e4d anyway. I'm wondering if the BA would hurt though IM...maybe I would be better injecting it into my fat, so my glutes aren't too sore to squat.

 

[Eric Potratz]

That makes sense, thanks...

Is it OK to mix the HCG in the syringe with my oilbased goodies, or do you suggest shooting separately...figured I'd kill two birds with one needle since I'm e4d anyway. I'm wondering if the BA would hurt though IM...maybe I would be better injecting it into my fat, so my glutes aren't too sore to squat.

IM is the best place for hCG. (most desirable pharmacokinetics)

As long as you’re not storing the two together than pulling and shooting right away would be fine.

-Pp

 

[comacho]

If you’ve been on for 4 weeks now you have lost a little sensitivity. Start out with 500iu for your first 2 shots then move back down to the 250iu doses.

Wait 3 weeks after your last shot to start the Dermacrine Sustain. Run this at 5 pumps for 30 days. A low dose run of toremifene is not a bad idea, but be careful of the anti-cortisol sups. IMO, you don’t want to be running any 7-keto DHEA metabolites for post cycle therapy as then can negatively influence your HTPA and lower your LH release. These sups are better suited as a cycle finisher (while your anabolic steroids are clearing) or for a cutting cycle.

If you want cortisol control for PCT, get some phosphatydlserine. If you want an additional T boost then make sure you get one of the non-steroidal/hormonal products. (such as the ATD, forme, 6-bromo, sups)

-Pp

Pp,

ATD and formestane are steroidal hormones


also do you have any data regarding cortisol block can hinder LH release?

a paper would be nice with dosing.

 

[comacho]

i found some

regarding DHEA and its effects on the axis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252535?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

7-oxo-dhea and its effects
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15843221?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

another

Sulcová J, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novácek A, Hampl R, Stárka L.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. [email protected]

The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of 7-oxo-DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) on the serum levels of steroid sexual hormones, gonadotropins, lipids and lipoproteins in men. 7-oxo-DHEA was applied onto the skin as a gel to 10 volunteers aged 27 to 72 years for 5 consecutive days. The single dose contained 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA. Serum concentrations of testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, androstenedione, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), total cholesterol, HDL- and LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) were measured before the beginning and shortly after the end of the steroid application. After the treatment, we noted the following significant changes: a decline of testosterone and estradiol levels, increase of LH, HDL-cholesterol and apolipoprotein A-I levels. The decrease of total cholesterol levels was of the borderline significance. A slight but significant increase was found in apolipoprotein B and lipoprotein(a). The most expressive was the fall of the atherogenic index. We suggest that the gel containing 7-oxo-DHEA might be a suitable drug for improving the composition of the steroid and lipid parameters in elderly men.

PMID: 11300231 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

hmm, i have started my pct with torem today and have been taking 7-cort and retain2,,,i feel like i should stop them from reading these papers, and yet afraid i will have a rebound in cortisol and i lose gains. what to do...

 

[Eric Potratz]

Pp,

ATD and formestane are steroidal hormones


also do you have any data regarding cortisol block can hinder LH release?

a paper would be nice with dosing.

Yes, that sounded funny. I was actually trying to give examples of steroidal AI’s that he shouldn’t take for PCT.

Concerning the 7-keto, I was making reference to it being able to negatively influence LH by itself, aside from its action on cortisol. Besides, 7-keto doesn’t have that strong of an effect on actually reducing cortisol. It’s more blocks and modulates the action of cortisol so it’s less catabolic and more repairing.

BTW, reducing cortisol will actually help boost your natural T production, which is why I recommend the use of phosphatidylserine for PCT (a non-hormonal cortisol reducer).

HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
[Annual Meeting Abstracts]
Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.


-Pp

 

[andros]

Yes, that sounded funny. I was actually trying to give examples of steroidal AI’s that he shouldn’t take for post cycle therapy.

Concerning the 7-keto, I was making reference to it being able to negatively influence LH by itself, aside from its action on cortisol. Besides, 7-keto doesn’t have that strong of an effect on actually reducing cortisol. It’s more blocks and modulates the action of cortisol so it’s less catabolic and more repairing.

BTW, reducing cortisol will actually help boost your natural T production, which is why I recommend the use of phosphatidylserine for post cycle therapy (a non-hormonal cortisol reducer).

HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
[Annual Meeting Abstracts]
Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.


-Pp

Retain2 is supposed to be an effictive cortisol blocker but it does have 7keto in it. Why would they put it in a "recover" formula? What dedicated cortisol blocker would then be better since you dont really want to negatively influence the LH trying to recover from a cycle?

 

[Eric Potratz]

Retain2 is supposed to be an effictive cortisol blocker but it does have 7keto in it. Why would they put it in a "recover" formula? What dedicated cortisol blocker would then be better since you dont really want to negatively influence the LH trying to recover from a cycle?

Im sure Retain is a fine product, I just don’t like to see guys use 7-keto for PCT, but maybe after PCT or during a cutting cycle, ect.

The PS will help reduce cortisol without any possible negative hormonal effects.

-Pp

 

[andros]

Im sure Retain is a fine product, I just don’t like to see guys use 7-keto for post cycle therapy, but maybe after PCT or during a cutting cycle, ect.

The PS will help reduce cortisol without any possible negative hormonal effects.

-Pp

How would you compare lean extreme with straight PS for cortisol control? LX doesn't contain 7keto.

 

[Eric Potratz]

How would you compare lean extreme with straight PS for cortisol control? LX doesn't contain 7keto.

What is in the LX?

-Pp

 

[andros]

What is in the LX?

-Pp

Green Tea Extract (50% EGCG), Coleus Forskohlii (40% Forskoli), 5-AT™ (7-Hydroxy 17B-Dihydro Dehydroepiandrosterone), 7OH (7-Hydroxy-Dehydroepiandrosterone)

 

[gotripped]

oh please.
hcg is not rocket science. you're all acting like it's super scientifical.

while on cycle and only while on cycle inj. twice a week @ 250 iu. do a tues/thurs split. it's not hard.

 

[gotripped]

That makes sense, thanks...

Is it OK to mix the HCG in the syringe with my oilbased goodies, or do you suggest shooting separately...figured I'd kill two birds with one needle since I'm e4d anyway. I'm wondering if the BA would hurt though IM...maybe I would be better injecting it into my fat, so my glutes aren't too sore to squat.

you won't be killing two birds with one stone. you'll be making an abcess.

everybody who's basically not a retard knows that mixing bacteriostatic water based products and OILS causes an abcess under the skin.

 

[gotripped]

IM is the best place for hCG. (most desirable pharmacokinetics)

As long as you’re not storing the two together than pulling and shooting right away would be fine.

-Pp

What are you talking about??!!?!?! do you not know about Abcesses caused by mixing oils and water together??!@?!?!??!?!?!!!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

[andros]

oh please.
hcg is not rocket science. you're all acting like it's super scientifical.

while on cycle and only while on cycle inj. twice a week @ 250 iu. do a tues/thurs split. it's not hard.

Right on bro =) Thats what i've done in the past but still felt some atrophy so i will be trying 3 times a week @ 250 iu SubQ

 

[gotripped]

Right on bro =) Thats what i've done in the past but still felt some atrophy so i will be trying 3 times a week @ 250 iu SubQ

Word. I've always done IM. I need to go read up on subq.

 

[Max32]

bump. this is a good thread...

 

[andros]

Word. I've always done IM. I need to go read up on subq.

Subq is releasing the HCG slower into the blood stream and should therefore keep serum levels more steady. But I find that 2xweek ain't enough to stave off atrophy. Swale recommends shooting 250iu 2 days before and 250 iu one day after your anabolic steroids injection.

 

[Eric Potratz]

What are you talking about??!!?!?! do you not know about Abcesses caused by mixing oils and water together??!@?!?!??!?!?!!!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

Its not the best idea, but its generally a very small amount of BA (that stays separated) and not enough to cause problems if shot right away. I would be more concerned about accurate dosing.

-Pp

 

[drguitar78]

you won't be killing two birds with one stone. you'll be making an abcess.

everybody who's basically not a retard knows that mixing bacteriostatic water based products and OILS causes an abcess under the skin.

You know, your overeagerness to sound like you know what you're talking about and your condescending tone toward people you know jack about really displays your insecurity about your manhood and your desparate need for approval.

 

[andros]

Dudes please stop the flame war and lets continue the thread

 

[drguitar78]

Dudes please stop the flame war and lets continue the thread

rock on man, I'm not flaming anyone..I'm just calling it like I see it. It's ****ing childish to call people a "retard" on here when we're all here to better ourselves by advancing our knowledge. So, not to be the one to say "I didn't start it", I just think letting people talk like that without telling them how they sound is perhaps doing everyone an injustice by letting that ignorant behavior continue.

 

[hurdlemaker]

Do 500iu ed for the last 2 weeks of your cycle, im doing it right now. Take nolvadex while doing the hcg for those two weeks to make sure you dont get any gyno and then start clomid after the two weeks. Start the clomid at 150mg for ten days, then 100mg for ten days, then 50mg for 10 days.

 

[INFLUENCER]

Do 500iu ed for the last 2 weeks of your cycle, im doing it right now. Take nolvadex while doing the hcg for those two weeks to make sure you dont get any gyno and then start clomid after the two weeks. Start the clomid at 150mg for ten days, then 100mg for ten days, then 50mg for 10 days.

OK well considering my last shot is in one week, and the test will take about a week to be out of my system I should start the HCG right now then, along with some nolva, and then start the clomid 1 week after my last shot and discontinue the hcg and nolva at that point?