I3C & Trans-Resveratrol

[UNCfan1]

Any thoughts on this combo for a potent SERM? Thoughts? If u don't think its good please explain.

 

[Musclefever]

i would like to know the answer as well

 

[strategicmove]

Any thoughts on this combo for a potent SERM? Thoughts? If u don't think its good please explain.

Your stack is solid!

I think I3C is a potent phytochemical and SERM.

Apart from the classic selective estrogen receptor properties, I3C also induces apoptosis (cell suicide), inhibits DNA damage, supports 2-Hydroxylation of Estrogen (benefical) versus of 16 a-Hydroxylation, is a potent antioxidant, inhibits dioxin, potentiates the effect of Tamoxifen (if also taken), and anti-cancer effects, especially the growth of prostate cancer cells.

Trans-resveratrol is also a potent anti-inflammatory and SERM. Apart from this, it also improves cardiovascular function, exhibits anti-mutagenic effects, is anti-fugal, regulates protein synthesis in DNA, acts as a potent anti-oxidant, supports endothelial cell-wall integrity, enhances sperm counts, and so on.

One may also consider another natural SERM, genistein, a soy isoflavone. Genistein triggers the metabolization of estradiol to estrogenically weaker or inactive metabolites, apart from other beneficial biological effects.

Other possibilities are flax lignans and yam sapogenins.

 

[EasyEJL]

don't forget the possibility of DIM or Diindolin in place of I3C as well since dim is the metabolite of i3c

 

[strategicmove]

Straight consumption of Indole-3-carbinol is superior to the alternative intake of DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane). One reason is that I3C is the parent molecule of not only DIM, but other phytochemicals produced in the gut. Examples include ICZ, NI3C and IAN. ICZ, for instance, blocks the dioxin receptor better than DIM or I3C. And so on. When I3C is consumed, one gets all of these compounds, not just DIM. These phytochemicals are collectively more potent than consumed in isolation.

 

[CROWLER]

When formulating POST Cycle Support, The Sinner considered using IC3 but decided against it and to only use the Trans Resveratrol.

I can't remember why, hopefully he sees this thread and can comment.


CROWLER

 

[UNCfan1]

When formulating POST Cycle Support, The Sinner considered using IC3 but decided against it and to only use the Trans Resveratrol.

I can't remember why, hopefully he sees this thread and can comment.


CROWLER

I hope he chimes in as well. Got a reply from Dinoiii at another site and this is what he had to say.

Sorry I didn't catch your thread at DA. Perhaps you could post my retort over there for cross-reference to save me a little time?


The information on resveratrol remains in its infancy, though interesting study evolution has resulted from outrageous claims. It is a phytoestrogen (along the lines of soy) that has been shown to function as an estrogen receptor (ER) agonist, but it remains unclear whether it may also exert antagonist activity. The closest we have to antagonistic activity is petri-dish analyses (test tube) data that has been unfortunately not extrapolated correctly by this industry which shows a select antagonism to the ER-alpha, but not ER-beta. Nonetheless, to suggest this be a suitable replacement for curbing elevated estradiol (E2) levels would be WAY off base. And the outrageous amount you would need to exert ANY effect in humans is not even remotely feasible for most anyway – making it quite prohibitive even if it did possess better and more complete direct antagonist properties.

I3C is completely different in nature. Its primary effects on estrogen are to channel various estrogenic metabolites as well as work as a mild aromatase inhibitor. This has no well-defined direct effect at the level of the ER.

That said, combination of I3C and some other ER-antagonist (NOT trans-resveratrol at this time) would likely be a far superior mode based on what data we do have available.



D_

 

[thesinner]

I3C pwn's DIM. More research, better absorption, and broader spectrum of effects.

I3C was taken out because it would have doubled the price of PCS. There's also a little bit of data about it being an AR antagonist.

Essentially, what I3C does is cause the formation of estrogens favor the weaker ones and control aromatase a lil bit.

 

[UNCfan1]

I3C pwn's DIM.

I3C was taken out because it would have doubled the price of PCS.

Essentially, what I3C does is cause the formation of estrogens favor the weaker ones and control aromatase a lil bit.

There he is!! Thanks for the reply sinner.

 

[pm39120]

if stacking post cycle support and I3C together, how much I3C should be taken?

 

[thesinner]

if stacking post cycle support and I3C together, how much I3C should be taken?

600mg

 

[pistonpump]

nice topic. im subbed just for further discussion.


strategicmove, may i ask what you do for a living and how you are so educated at everything that pertains to this site lol?

 

[Travis]

600mg

I always thought 2-400mg's would be sufficient? :think:

 

[UNCfan1]

I always thought 2-400mg's would be sufficient? :think:

Thats what I thought too.

 

[strategicmove]

nice topic. im subbed just for further discussion.


strategicmove, may i ask what you do for a living and how you are so educated at everything that pertains to this site lol?

That's an overstatement, Piston. There are many things on this site that I absolutely am unable to contribute to. Now, to answer your question. I work as Head of Controlling/Financial Management/Strategic Risk Analysis and Management for a software company in Bavaria, Germany, about 90 or so minutes from Munich. As background, I have a Ph.D. in Economics. I read a lot of nutritional science and related subjects when I find the time. When I am lucky, I find threads I can contribute to. Sometimes, I recheck some of my sources. I still have a lot to learn, definitely. Hope this clarifies somewhat.

 

[strategicmove]

600mg

This would be the upper range, right?

 

[dinoiii]

Sorry guys I still don't frequent this site often enough.

This would be the upper range, right?

I would respond to multiple posts throughout BUT this is extremely problematic as if I recall the multi-quote function stinks on this site.

In any regard...the upper dose range is NOT limited to 600mg by ANY stretch and is actually more a function of volume of distribution. Sorry strategicmove - that term is my German for you.

Volume of distribution is essentially how the item will distribute to target tissues dependent on how big the container. In other words, the bigger you are...the more you take. There are adequate levels to abide by and they begin closer to 400mg and up based on a bodyweight of about 150 pounds.

Some further random points based on this thread's discussion:

[1] First, I would like to interject as I did on Lean Bulk with the antagonistic properties of I3C. What is NOT being understood is that this is in extracted cell lines rather than in vivo. I3C is perfectly fine.

[2] The anti-carcinogenic properties of various indoles are restricted to particular estrogen-dependent cancer types. Think of it this way...breast cancer requires estrogen, prostate cancer requires estrogen...in both cases, it has a therapeutic place. However, something like say colon cancer (estrogen-independent) shows no benefit.


D_

 

[RisingAgainst]

Hmmmmm.... I think D might be onto something... BWAHAHAH!

 

[zpnq]

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/I3C-safety.htm

 

[bound]

Okay, wait. I'm sorry, but I'm lost. So are you all saying that I3C and Trans-resveratrol ARE a good combo for PCT, or no?

 

[dinoiii]

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/I3C-safety.htm

NEVER trust anything by vested interest groups, Michael A. Zeligs is one of the biggest proponents of DIM because he has a cheap DIM product. Please do NOT get me started on how bias this author's info is.

For More, go to DA and search: "Zeligs I3C dinoiii"


D_

 

[RisingAgainst]

Okay, wait. I'm sorry, but I'm lost. So are you all saying that I3C and Trans-resveratrol ARE a good combo for post cycle therapy, or no?

Sure its good, but it's not meant to be the FOUNDATION of your PCT... D may disagree on the use of transresveratrol... but we both favor Indole 3 carbinol quite a bit

 

[dinoiii]

Trans Res has had some dismal 3rd party suggestion for one which doesn't bode well for something that need be dosed high for oral administration.

Outside of that, it possess estrogenic properties that have NOT been presented in a light that we can be certain are not to going to have deleterious effect at this state of research on it, which is in its infancy - despite advertisement claims to the contrary.


D_

 

[zpnq]

NEVER trust anything by vested interest groups, Michael A. Zeligs is one of the biggest proponents of DIM because he has a cheap DIM product. Please do NOT get me started on how bias this author's info is.

For More, go to DA and search: "Zeligs I3C dinoiii"


D_

Thanks for the input, its hard to sift through the BS sometimes.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Trans Res has had some dismal 3rd party suggestion for one which doesn't bode well for something that need be dosed high for oral administration.

Outside of that, it possess estrogenic properties that have NOT been presented in a light that we can be certain are not to going to have deleterious effect at this state of research on it, which is in its infancy - despite advertisement claims to the contrary.


D_

I love debating with you bro... lol You should really email me that one study we discussed on DA in Jane's Diet thread... or maybe it WAS the DIM/I3C/Epimedium thread?? anyways, happened at the same time cuz we were in both.. Better yet, let's setup a call man...

 

[EasyEJL]

Thanks for the input, its hard to sift through the BS sometimes.

I would say virtually impossible

 

[dinoiii]

I love debating with you bro... lol You should really email me that one study we discussed on DA in Jane's Diet thread... or maybe it WAS the DIM/I3C/Epimedium thread?? anyways, happened at the same time cuz we were in both.. Better yet, let's setup a call man...

Am going to open up "House Calls II" soon if interested. I have pretty busy office schedules with clients/patients that it is usually unrealistic to do tons of these.

For now, it appears you are itching to tell me a few things (judging from posts here and at lean bulk). Perhaps you could open up an email to start that line of convo and we will continue over the phone.



D_

 

[pistonpump]

no phone sex guys :nono:

 

[RisingAgainst]

no phone sex guys :nono:

why not?? wth. LOL dude, her butt crack (your avatar) is killin me bro.. my jaw is resting on my left foot. haha

 

[Wilderbeast]

Sorry to get a bit off topic here, but I do have a question for you Sinner. WHY use 50% resveratrol, when 100% trans-resveratrol is the most potent, and possibly the most effective form of resv? Is it simply due to the high cost to consumers that using 100% trans-resveratrol would cause?

 

[CROWLER]

Wilderbeast, 100% costs about 4 times as much as 50%.

50% at twice the dosage gives you the same amount of anything as 100%.


CROWLER

 

[Wilderbeast]

WHY use 50% resveratrol, when 100% trans-resveratrol is the most potent, and possibly the most effective form of resv? Is it simply due to the high cost to consumers that using 100% trans-resveratrol would cause?

I understand that "50% at twice the dosage gives you the same amount of anything as 100%." I did graduate from college. You don't have to state it condescendingly. You could have simply replied, "Yes, it is because 100% trans-resveratrol will cost a significant amount more for the consumer," which is what i originally asked if was the case.

 

[CROWLER]

Wilderbeast my apologies if you thought my answer was condesending.

I definitely did not mean it like that.


CROWLER

 

[Wilderbeast]

No problem

 

[aquanutz]

Alright, I've only been reading on these two for the past few minutes so please excuse my over abundance of ignorance here... but say there was a product that had 200mg of IC3 and 5mg of Resveratrol in it, is the Resveratrol amount even enough when taken in triple doses? (so 600mg of IC3 and 15mg of Resv) Since it is not Trans-Resveratrol, will absorption be less? (I'm still unclear on the difference)

 

[CROWLER]

Well 15 mg seems VERY low to me.

We used 600mg of Trans-Resveratrol in our POST Cycle Support at The Sinner's suggestion.


CROWLER

 

[aquanutz]

Gotcha. I figured that would be really low.

Any info on the difference between Resveratrol and Trans-Resveratrol?

 

[bound]

Gotcha. I figured that would be really low.

Any info on the difference between Resveratrol and Trans-Resveratrol?

Huh. Never even thought to question whether there was two different versions of the compound. I just assumed that people just didn't feel like typing 'Trans-' over and over. and over.

 

[aquanutz]

Huh. Never even thought to question whether there was two different versions of the compound. I just assumed that people just didn't feel like typing 'Trans-' over and over. and over.

I'm still unsure also... I'm seeing it sold with both names. confusion for teh win!

 

[EasyEJL]

there is trans-resveratrol and cis-resveratrol. cis is not biologically available.

 

[strategicmove]

Correct! There are two types of Resveratrol. The one is the "cis" form, and the other is the "trans" form. The "trans" from is natural, while the "cis" from is synthetic. Sometimes, "Resveratrol" is used when "Trans-Resveratrol" is meant. Sometimes, "Resveratrol" is used to generally identify the compound.

 

[pudzian2]

any thoughts as to whether this combination could be used effectively on cycle as apposed to post cycle and thereby eliminate the need for "harsher" AI's and SERMS. (would take a load off the liver and depending on the compounds used- the lipids as well.)

 

[strategicmove]

any thoughts as to whether this combination could be used effectively on cycle as apposed to post cycle and thereby eliminate the need for "harsher" AI's and SERMS. (would take a load off the liver and depending on the compounds used- the lipids as well.)

Which "combination" did you refer to?

 

[pudzian2]

Which "combination" did you refer to?

50-100% trans reserveratrol + I3C

 

[strategicmove]

50-100% trans reserveratrol + I3C

I can see these two compounds as a part of the required blend. Quercetin is synergistic with trans-resveratrol. You might want to do Trans-Resveratrol, Quercetin, and I-3-C. Plus Silymarin, N-Acetyl-Cysteine, Vitamin C (at least 1.5 times the amount of N-Acetyl-Cysteine), Saw Palmetto, Nettle Root, and Pygeum. Most of these compounds are found in Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support and Post-Cycle Support.

 

[pudzian2]

I can see these two compounds as a part of the required blend. Quercetin is synergistic with trans-resveratrol. You might want to do Trans-Resveratrol, Quercetin, and I-3-C. Plus Silymarin, N-Acetyl-Cysteine, Vitamin C (at least 1.5 times the amount of N-Acetyl-Cysteine), Saw Palmetto, Nettle Root, and Pygeum. Most of these compounds are found in Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support and Post-Cycle Support.

yea I always take cycle support ON and PCT. Now that they have Post Cycle Support I will invest in that for PCT. I was just wondering about the combo of I3C and Trans-R specifically for their SERM effects. It would be nice to replace long term AI or things like ralox / tamox etc while ON for estro and gyno control

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm not entirely sure about an AI effect while on cycle with a highly aromatizable substance, but I do believe in resveratrol's ability to reduce the amount of suppression on cycle.

 

[LilPsychotic]

I understand that "50% at twice the dosage gives you the same amount of anything as 100%." I did graduate from college. You don't have to state it condescendingly. You could have simply replied, "Yes, it is because 100% trans-resveratrol will cost a significant amount more for the consumer," which is what i originally asked if was the case.

:aargh:

 

[pudzian2]

I'm not entirely sure about an AI effect while on cycle with a highly aromatizable substance, but I do believe in resveratrol's ability to reduce the amount of suppression on cycle.

well some people choose AI's while on cycle, and others prefer SERMS. I personally have found either to work well, but if I was going to choose Trans-reserv and I3C vs. nolva (or an AI like aromasin) I would opt for the natural route. See what I mean? Whether its an AI or a SERM isnt so important, but whether those knowledgeable about them think they are strong enough to control estrogen an gyn on a cycle of test for example.

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, I have some 1-t thp ether caps, and I will eventually run them with just resveratraol as ai on cycle. and likely as PCT as well I3C I still have some questions on