am I experiencing some rebound effects?

[camaroguy18]

I'm dealing with alot of issues right now. Last month I ran a cycle of Liquid Nolva to combat some pre-existing gyno from a superdol cycle which I ran at 40/40/20/10 and yielded no results (I was told ahead of time that it may not help since the gyno was already preset for some time).

In the past month I've experienced major shutdown (libido is shot, very lethargic/depressed), and now my hair is thinning out (I shed a few hairs each day in the shower) and I think my gyno is increasing (perhaps a delay effect?). To add to this, my left nipple has been itchy for the past couple weeks and I did experience some lactating for a day out of it when it was squeezed.

Only things I have been taking were RPM, Fish oil, Milk thistle, Zinc, B6, and Vitamin C....I haven't taken any in the past week.


Where can I go from here? From what I understand, the nipple issue could be an issue with prolactin? The hair loss I'm baffled with as well...it may be stress related, but should I attempt to use hair loss preventative measures? Won't this shut down my libido more?

At the very least I feel I should meet with a doctor and be honest about my past supplementation...though I was in at the start of the month and had a physical and some bloodwork done (though the doc didn't want to test me for everything that I inquired about).

Any guidance would be incredibly appreciated.

 

[gotripped]

Bro everybody loses a ****load of hair normally. Are you sure this isn't normal hair loss? Also, Trying Letrozole might be effective. You can read up on the dosages. Arimidex is an AI you could use that as well. Nolva works for me and A-dex is just my backup.

 

[nelix]

Cut the stressing (and any stimulants) and I bet cha your hair and libido will fair much better, you got to be positive.

The mind aside, doing a few things to help the situation will make you feel better, get some nizoral and give your scalp a good cleaning (to remove icky DHT)... Get a doctor to look at this gyno (if that is what it really is)... And if you find those things improving you libido should follow... If not there is heaps you can do to improve that too!

Stay positive man, don't let your fears bring you down.

 

[camaroguy18]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll cut the RPM for a bit and look into nizoral

I've been working on the stress relief as well...this whole college thing can really get at you ya know?

thanks again

 

[Travis]

I'm dealing with alot of issues right now. Last month I ran a cycle of Liquid Nolva to combat some pre-existing gyno from a superdol cycle which I ran at 40/40/20/10 and yielded no results (I was told ahead of time that it may not help since the gyno was already preset for some time).

In the past month I've experienced major shutdown (libido is shot, very lethargic/depressed), and now my hair is thinning out (I shed a few hairs each day in the shower) and I think my gyno is increasing (perhaps a delay effect?). To add to this, my left nipple has been itchy for the past couple weeks and I did experience some lactating for a day out of it when it was squeezed.

Only things I have been taking were RPM, Fish oil, Milk thistle, Zinc, B6, and Vitamin C....I haven't taken any in the past week.


Where can I go from here? From what I understand, the nipple issue could be an issue with prolactin? The hair loss I'm baffled with as well...it may be stress related, but should I attempt to use hair loss preventative measures? Won't this shut down my libido more?

At the very least I feel I should meet with a doctor and be honest about my past supplementation...though I was in at the start of the month and had a physical and some bloodwork done (though the doc didn't want to test me for everything that I inquired about).

Any guidance would be incredibly appreciated.

What were the doses of Nolva used? Did you taper it up then down (pryamid)?

I'd say look into getting some cabergoline asap. Also what dose of B6 are you using? You might be able to up that to provide some temporary relief as far as the prolactin goes.

Oh, and get a new doc!

 

[jomi822]

What was your post cycle therapy for the superdrol cycle

 

[Travis]

What was your post cycle therapy for the superdrol cycle

I know what your looking for... :stick:

 

[jomi822]

I know what your looking for... :stick:

haha oh im placing my bets

 

[UNCfan1]

Was the 40/40/20/10 ur Nolva or superdrol doses?

 

[camaroguy18]

My superdrol cycle was incredibly stupid...I took it the summer of 05 and basically ran the cycle through two bottles (120 caps) ramping up to as high as 40mg and then back down. None of you need to stress how bad this was, as I have since read and understood this was way too much, but at the same time this was when the effects were not well researched and went off of what the websites were recommending

(Weeks 1-2 ..................2 caps (20 mg)
• Weeks 3-4 ..................3 caps (30 mg)
• Weeks 5-6 ..................4 caps (40 mg))

My post cycle therapy was nothing more than rebound xt and I didn't begin to experience any lumps for months, but eventually did.

I didn't tackle the issue with a SERM because I did not know of them, or their effects. Rather a friend of mine out at USAFA had a similar situation from running the same cycle and said a bottle of 6oxo cleared his right up. I ran a cycle of that and to no avail...I then became used to the fact that I was stuck with the lumps.

Time went by and they didn't increase or decrease until after I ran my cycle of nolva...they haven't necessarily become more noticeable visually, but I can feel 'more mass' and they are more tender than before.

When I took the nolva I ran it 40/40/20/10

I've been taking the B6 at 200mg/day...the directions recommend 100mg/day but I've read of several people dosing higher on this site.

EDIT: I should also add that this previous summer I ran a four week cycle of Rebound Reloaded following some recommendations to the idea that this could help get my hormones back in balance while I searched for a SERM...some further reading has led me to believe that this could have irritated the pre-existing gyno as well.

 

[jomi822]

andddd we have a winner. Rebound xt and rebound reloaded huh?

this has to be the 15th thread ive seen where a person is still in the gutter years later because of ATD in post cycle therapy.

when are people going to learn. never

 

[camaroguy18]

andddd we have a winner. Rebound xt and rebound reloaded huh?

this has to be the 15th thread ive seen where a person is still in the gutter years later because of ATD in post cycle therapy.

when are people going to learn. never

I hardly believe it's a matter of not caring, and that the real issue deals with misinformation.

Google superdrol and read the descriptions of every retailer (still today) on how to dose it and they say to follow up with a PCT of an ATD...not once do you even hear about a SERM until you come across a message board such as this. Had I known that this much **** could have potentially happened I would have never cycled superdrol in the first place. Had I known an ATD was not a sufficient PCT and a SERM was not only recommended but necessary, the precautions would have been taken.

I know these same posts get repetitive and it's alarming that it's happening to so many people, but while you sit and wave your finger keep in mind that the last thing I wanted to do was keep my body from functioning normally.

 

[jomi822]

That wasnt aimed so much at your in particular, but at the BB community in general. I am a strong believer that due to its anti-androgenic (yea they dont tell you that) activity it is in fact worse than taking nothing at all during post cycle therapy. The retailers and supp companies arent giving the whole story when they describe ATD. The stuff just eliminates male 2ndary characteristics.

You are already in a hormonal loop, it probably wont change unless you shut it down again. (there is some science to support going on cycle for short periods of time hypersenstizes the pituitary to even small amounts of gonadatropins).

I would suggest you do a very short cycle of a short ester testosterone or a non-progestational weak pro steroid and then restart your HPTA with toremifene.

i would also suggest you use cialis at that period in time.

 

[Travis]

Not only was there AtD but also nolva. Both are connected to causing gyno with Superdrol cycles. But yeah the only thing you can do now it try to correct it.

I'm not certain Jomi but I think his issue right now is the gyno (although its sounds like the physical symptoms describe someone who is still suppressed).

 

[jomi822]

I'm dealing with alot of issues right now. Last month I ran a cycle of Liquid Nolva to combat some pre-existing gyno from a superdol cycle which I ran at 40/40/20/10 and yielded no results (I was told ahead of time that it may not help since the gyno was already preset for some time).

In the past month I've experienced major shutdown (libido is shot, very lethargic/depressed), and now my hair is thinning out (I shed a few hairs each day in the shower) and I think my gyno is increasing (perhaps a delay effect?). To add to this, my left nipple has been itchy for the past couple weeks and I did experience some lactating for a day out of it when it was squeezed.

it looks like he ran the nolva way later to take care of the gyno. Libido issues, hair loss, lethargy, depression, id say hes still shut down. His gyno certainly wont get any better if his hormonal panel is still fubar.

Try pm'ing a guy named doctor D for advice. If what he says doesnt work come back to me and ill give you a "last resort" approach that has worked with everyone i have given it to. good luck

 

[Travis]

Yeah I just noticed the Nolva was taken at a later date.

You could also PM Primordial Perf (Eric). He has posted a pretty good protocol to re/kick start HPTA in his forum. It was aimed more towards the TRT guys but it would work for anyone. He has a lot of experience in this area.

We need to get him and Dr. D on the same thread sometime...

 

[datBtrue]

...get some nizoral and give your scalp a good cleaning (to remove icky DHT)...

I second this. It is simple and seems to help when we are messing around w/ our hormones.

 

[datBtrue]

camaroguy18 before you start messing w/ your hormones any further you should get some blood work to see where you are.

IGF-1 LR3 also stimultaes Luteinizing hormone (LH) and Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone...

It works wonderfully in restoring people even post-PCT, so you might want to give that a go. I probably shouldn't even whisper this but externally administered insulin stimulates LH & FSH as well.

 

[jomi822]

camaroguy18 before you start messing w/ your hormones any further you should get some blood work to see where you are.

IGF-1 LR3 also stimultaes Luteinizing hormone (LH) and Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone...

It works wonderfully in restoring people even post-post cycle therapy, so you might want to give that a go. I probably shouldn't even whisper this but externally administered insulin stimulates LH & FSH as well.

Little tweaks like that are not going to work...

insulin and igf-1 stimulate gonadatropins?

 

[camaroguy18]

when I had some bloodwork at the start of the month, the tests that were conducted were

TSH
CBC
and BMP

thats all she felt was necessary as I went in for a 'routine physical' and asked to get bloodwork done.

If I were to go back in to get more bloodwork what should I ask for...here's what I'm thinking...

Test/Free test
DHT
Prolactin
Progesterone

and maybe FSH and LH?

would this cover me?

I'll be sure to also PM Dr. D and explain my situation

thanks again for pointing me in some directions guys...

 

[nelix]

Good luck and keep us all posted

 

[newbie arnie]

i no wot you mean all websites say any pct product is enough such as revive T

 

[datBtrue]

insulin and igf-1 stimulate gonadatropins?

• ...findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release. - Endocrinology, Vol 108, 1441-1449 1981
  
  
• ...Incubation with physiological concentrations of IGF-I resulted in significantly higher GnRH-stimulated FSH release and remaining cell content of FSH and LH. Conversely, supraphysiological concentrations of insulin were required to produce more moderate effects on gonadotropin levels. These results suggest that elevation of gonadotropin levels by IGF-I may be one mechanism by which somatic growth and nutrition promote pubertal development...- Biology of Reproduction 63, 865-871 (2000)
  
  
• Previous studies have shown that insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LH synthesis and release from primary gonadotrophs....These findings indicate that insulin may impact regulation of the reproductive axis at the level of the pituitary. - Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2006 Apr 25;249(1-2):99-106

 

[Thaiclinch]

Im sorry to jump into this post so late, but I should be recieving my Superdrol from Anabolic xtreme early this week.
Im about 230lbs Im going to work at getting to about 240-45 this winter and I was going to follow it up PCT with Novedex xt.
I obviously want to avoid any of these side effects. Any suggestions to the usage size would be great. I have used Novedex for my PCT before and it seemed to work great.
If you have any suggestions please let throw it out there.
PS. I eat really clean when training. This is a list of what I will be taking, if anything appears that it will counter act with each other please let me know.

1x Superdrol NG By: Anabolic Xtreme
1x Novedex XT By: Gaspari <---For PCT
1x 100% Casein By: Optimum Nutrition <--Night time food
Flavor: Chocolate Supreme
1x 100% Whey Gold Standard By: Optimum Nutrition
Flavor: Chocolate Mint
1x Xtend By: Scivation <---BCAA's
Flavor: Lemonade

 

[nelix]

Im sorry to jump into this post so late, but I should be recieving my Superdrol from Anabolic xtreme early this week.
Im about 230lbs Im going to work at getting to about 240-45 this winter and I was going to follow it up post cycle therapy with Novedex xt.
I obviously want to avoid any of these side effects. Any suggestions to the usage size would be great. I have used Novedex for my PCT before and it seemed to work great.
If you have any suggestions please let throw it out there.
PS. I eat really clean when training. This is a list of what I will be taking, if anything appears that it will counter act with each other please let me know.

1x Superdrol NG By: Anabolic Xtreme
1x Novedex XT By: Gaspari <---For PCT
1x 100% Casein By: Optimum Nutrition <--Night time food
Flavor: Chocolate Supreme
1x 100% Whey Gold Standard By: Optimum Nutrition
Flavor: Chocolate Mint
1x Xtend By: Scivation <---BCAA's
Flavor: Lemonade

Do more research. SDNG is not superdrol... and Novedex XT is not enough for PCT. Honestly, read a bunch more before you jump in. There is not way back.

 

[Thaiclinch]

Well I know that SDNG is not true SUPERDROL, but would novedex be able to bring me back from using SDNG? Im really not finding much about SDNG most of my searches bring up the the real superdrol.

 

[datBtrue]

...I should be recieving my Superdrol from Anabolic xtreme early this week.

You are going to be so sad to find out that Anabolic Xtreme just took the name of a steroid so effective that the FDA stepped in and forced them to stop producing it and used it on a product that has NO resemblance to the original. The FDA will never stop them from producing this "new SD" and it will not produce the gains that the original produced.

AX really just wanted your money so they fooled you.

Gaspari did the same thing with Halodrol. The stuff they sell today under the same name is so ineffective (IMHO) that they need to use a hot nearly naked model with her legs spread just to sell the stuff. But the Gaspari reps say that ad campaign is a huge success.

Now that these companies have discovered that you don't need to produce effective products to make bank they ain't ever gonna. (IMHO)

 

[Thaiclinch]

So are you saying that I shouldnt even take it? I knew that I wasnt ordering a steroid, I was just looking for something that gave me the aggresiveness that I felt when I took the old finigenx. In the reviews etc. that I read it looked as if this would do the job.

 

[nelix]

Well I know that SDNG is not true SUPERDROL, but would novedex be able to bring me back from using SDNG? Im really not finding much about SDNG most of my searches bring up the the real superdrol.

No.
Search for SDNG

 

[Thaiclinch]

As for PCT, yes. We do recommend aPCT for it - a light PCT that will do the trick just nicely. Nothing fancy, no SERM or anything.

Quote: "Good luck and enjoy!
__________________
AX Rep du jour - [email protected]All my life I've been over the top. I don't know what I'm doing, all I know is I don't wanna stop!!

Warning: I have opinions and I'm not afraid to use them. If you don't like my opinion, then develop your own. Last time I checked, this was still America. May the wings of liberty never lose a feather"

I found this on a diff. site. It supprising to me that the reps at AX wouldnt get more in depth on a topic of such importance.

 

[Thaiclinch]

Im seeing everywhere I search people are using AX's recommended PST, which is Advanced PCT by Anabolic xtreme. Is this more of a sales pitch or is that suffice? Also many of the peeps using this were cycling in retain with it.
Thanks, I appoligize for asking so many ?'s but I just want to make sure that Im doing this right and this is the most credible site that I have found and I really value your opinions and comments. Thanks

 

[camaroguy18]

well I've been doing some more research and I'm thinking I might try out a cycle of Letro, following the protocol many have used here (starting at .5mg and working up to 2.5mn/ED) Hopefully it will have the intended effects, and then after I taper off I can run a cycle of Toremefine to combat estrogen rebound and to help restart my HPTA.


This sound okay?

Also, I've upped my B6 intake to 400mg/day ...the pain in my nips is subsiding somewhat, but I want to nip this gyno in the butt before it gets any worse.

 

[camaroguy18]

just to add, the nirozal hasn't done much to help...in fact I have been shedding more hair as of recent, so I'm going back into the doc to get the bloodwork done and inquire as to what the hell is happening with my hair.


question though: should I be open with my doc about superdrol? Or is this something I don't want to fess up to?

 

[jomi822]

just to add, the nirozal hasn't done much to help...in fact I have been shedding more hair as of recent, so I'm going back into the doc to get the bloodwork done and inquire as to what the hell is happening with my hair.


question though: should I be open with my doc about superdrol? Or is this something I don't want to fess up to?

hell probably write it off as nothing. he wont know what it is, and will assume its some rinky dink supplement not even worth considering. he wont listen to your explanation, and will arrogantly play it down. youre better off by yourself. your DHT related hairloss is probably due to excess estrogen, believe it or not. its just as desirable a substrate for 5AR as testosterone. not a lot of people realize that.

you need to go back on cycle, supress everything, and start from scratch. worst case scenario you end up right back where you are right now.

or you can go to a doctor who will run every test under the sun and conclude it by doing absolutely nothing to remedy your situation.

 

[datBtrue]

hell probably write it off as nothing. he wont know what it is, and will assume its some rinky dink supplement not even worth considering. he wont listen to your explanation, and will arrogantly play it down. youre better off by yourself. your DHT related hairloss is probably due to excess estrogen, believe it or not. its just as desirable a substrate for 5AR as testosterone. not a lot of people realize that.

you need to go back on cycle, supress everything, and start from scratch. worst case scenario you end up right back where you are right now.

or you can go to a doctor who will run every test under the sun and conclude it by doing absolutely nothing to remedy your situation.

Jomi makes some sense here. Doctors really are that ignorant. If you do go back on I suggest you use injectable testosterone only. Oral compounds (esp. some of the prohormones) seem to be hard on the body's recovery systems and Tren & Deca present there own unique problems.

When you run your proper PCT I suggest you do it extremely well. Use HCG especially in the latter weeks of the cycle. Run Tor & Ral. at the proper dosages and make it a long PCT (i.e. 6 weeks or more). Use IGF-1 LR3 at the start of PCT (20mcg everyday for 3 weeks) and again after you finish your SERM.

As you come off PCT you might run an AI if you need to for the gyno. If you do this add in ACTIVATE of Nutra's bulk Nettle Root and run a Non-hormonal cycle to increase the free test.

Anyway Jomi has a good point. Your hormones are wacked but you don't know their current levels or what will happen when you try to mess with just one....running a fresh cycle "restores" them to a predictable low level. We know how to make them rebound from this low level via various forms of proper PCT timed to be started after the steroid cycle ends. We have a huge sample of guys that have restored themselves this way. Why not take Jomi's advice and go from there?

 

[camaroguy18]

You both make very valid points, and I thank you for sharing them...

Thing is, I've never really cycled anything other than superdrol... I do still have a bottle of it though after what I've gone through with it I would rather stay away from it. The thought of going on a cycle of injectable test worries me for two reasons...

1. My knowledge and desire to ever use steroids has always been low (keeping in mind that with superdrol being a ph I had no idea it was in a similar class)

2. I'm already experiencing some heavy shedding...though it may be due to estrogen as jomi pointed out...wouldn't this make the situation worse? I really don't want to lose my hair at 22- MPB does not run in my family, and we all have thick heads of hair (but now mine is noticeably thinning to the point that I can't spike my hair up without it looking weird)

EDIT: Rather than ask you to just tell me an effective and not too powerful test cycle I did some research and found alot of people recommending Test Enanthate as a first cycle (and one that isn't to hardcore)...would you agree to this? As for PCT, I've read of great results with a Letro/Torem cycle....could this be something I use for post cycle therapy after a short cycle? The letro would obviously be for the gyno, and the torem for my SERM.

At this point I'm sure that getting a messload of bloodwork done, and having my doc look at my scalp may do little, so this might be the direction I head next.

 

[jomi822]

you cannot use letro during post cycle therapy, it is a very harsh and powerful aromatase inhibitor. it will be detrimental to recovery if you use it, and completely negate the use of toremifene.

id suggest you order the toremifene right now while you still can. Test enanthate would be fine. if you are looking to run it for recovery purposes only, all you would need is 250mgs/week for 8 weeks or so.

or you can run a full 500mgs/week for 10-12 weeks if you want a real cycle. i would worry about you hair, fix things and it will take care of itself. keep using that nizoral.

toremifene is 120/90/60/30

id also recommend you try some cialis during pct....ive been reading up on its 2ndary messenger proliferating properties. throw it in and the boys should grow back just a little faster.

 

[datBtrue]

Rather than ask you to just tell me an effective and not too powerful test cycle I did some research and found alot of people recommending Test Enanthate as a first cycle (and one that isn't to hardcore)...would you agree to this?

I believe the body naturally produces no more than 10mg of testosterone per day. Anytime you administer steroids it will increase the amount of hormone in your body by many many multiples. I view any administration of a steroid, hormone or something that converts to a hormone after admistration as hardcore & powerful.

Having said that turinabol is often considered an effective steroid with some quality gains and lower sides. Testosterone as you described is often recommended as a first cycle. Nizoral shampoo can reduce DHT in the scalp (1% is available OTC in the US and 2% by prescription) & Finasteride is a stronger way to protect the hairline...some even apply minoxidil during their cycle.

As for post cycle therapy, I've read of great results with a Letro/Torem cycle....could this be something I use for post cycle therapy after a short cycle? The letro would obviously be for the gyno, and the torem for my SERM.

Tormifene is the best SERM you can use for Post Cycle Therapy. You don't need an AI...it is probably not a good idea but if you chose one aromasin would be the best. Letrozole would not only be the worst but it will cause more problems than it will "solve". Letro for gyno should only be used on cycle (not as prevention but as an active way to fight what has already developed) or off cycle as a stand-alone treatment of gyno....but again never in PCT.

 

[TripDog]

andddd we have a winner. Rebound xt and rebound reloaded huh?

this has to be the 15th thread ive seen where a person is still in the gutter years later because of ATD in post cycle therapy.

when are people going to learn. never

is that why DS took rebound xt off the market?

 

[jomi822]

is that why DS took rebound xt off the market?

well their claim was that atd blocked the androgen receptor ONLY on the hypothalamus and therefore cut back on androgen negative feedback AND estrogen negative feedback (via its role as an AI).

turns out they were wrong. ATD attatches to all AR's and shuts them down, which also greatly down regulates them. good luck getting your nuts to work (they depend on androgens AND gonadatropins for size and function) while they are being shut down by ATD. i dont know how these comapnies arent being sued out the ass

 

[camaroguy18]

alright, I have some Torem on its way...the only reason I mentioned Letro again was because datbtrue mentioned

"As you come off post cycle therapy you might run an AI if you need to for the gyno."

I had seen alot of people speak highly of how strong it was, and I do have some gyno acting up; I figured tapering up to 2.5 mgs to see what would happen...

I have another doc's appointment next thursday. I want to at least get some bloodwork done to find my levels of DHT, Estro, Prolactin,
Progesterone, Test/Free Test, FSH, and LH ....I think with those results I can make a conscious decision as to whether or not I want to cycle test.


Real quick though....why wouldn't a cycle of Torem stand-alone help reduce estro and help balance HPTA? I understand that the whole idea of me going on a cycle is to start a post cycle therapy with all hormones at a predictable level, but the prevalent gyno, prolactin, and hair thinning pretty much demonstrates high levels of estro, and not necessarily a lack of test (I still grow hair everywhere else easily, my boys 'appear' fine, and there hasn't been a change in voice, or lack of strength gains in the gym)

 

[jomi822]

we cant call all of the shots for you man. if you feel youre in a slump, its probably hormonal.

if youve messed up your endocrine system, i have never seen a person be able to dig themselves out of it after the fact. do whatever you think is best.