Tor+Clo+Nolva

datBtrue

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I am curious if anyone has used the following three SERMS in a single post cycle therapy and if so what was your protocol:

  1. Toremifene
  2. Clomid
  3. Nolva
Obviously it is overkill...but for a long cycle maybe...

Could they be run together? ...to what extent do these SERMS compete with one another for the same transport pathway?

I saw on another board where Grunt planned to run the following:

Clomid - 2 weeks
Nolva - 2 weeks
Toremifene - 2 weeks​
 
RisingAgainst

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people who still run clomiphene and nolvadex together are retarded...


Nolva - liver toxic
Clomid - ocular toxic


let's ditch the 1st generation BS that has toxicity issues and move on to the less toxic lineup.
 

krogtaar

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i believe tore and tamox work very similarly, so using them together makes no sense, and i dont see a point in running one of the older toxic serms
 
datBtrue

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i believe tore and tamox work very similarly, so using them together makes no sense, and i dont see a point in running one of the older toxic serms
Tor has similiarities w/ both Nolva and Clomid but it is more of a Clomid replacement. Many people beyond this board use Tor & Nolva together w/ great results.
 
RisingAgainst

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Tor has similiarities w/ both Nolva and Clomid but it is more of a Clomid replacement. Many people beyond this board use Tor & Clo together w/ great results.
Many people beyond this board screw jars of peanut butter, does this make them right??? pfffft dude, using clomid or nolvadex is retarded period. I can understand if you're soo shutdown it hurts and you use clomid therapy for 3 days... but people so fond of these older, more dangerous SERM's usually lack that intelligence anyways bro.. I'd migrate AWAY from those places so it doesn't rub off.
 
datBtrue

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Many people beyond this board screw jars of peanut butter, does this make them right??? pfffft dude, using clomid or nolvadex is retarded period. I can understand if you're soo shutdown it hurts and you use clomid therapy for 3 days... but people so fond of these older, more dangerous SERM's usually lack that intelligence anyways bro.. I'd migrate AWAY from those places so it doesn't rub off.
C'mon. I wasn't asking you for advice...I was asking if anyone who understood how these three SERMS interact could see ANY benefit in running the three together. To what extent do they interfere with one another...etc. I was also asking if anyone had or knew of anyone who had used all three together.

Many people beyond this board screw jars of peanut butter, does this make them right??? .. I'd migrate AWAY from those places so it doesn't rub off.
Now you're just be silly...
 
IroNwIlL2006

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C'mon. I wasn't asking you for advice...I was asking if anyone who understood how these three SERMS interact could see ANY benefit in running the three together. To what extent do they interfere with one another...etc. I was also asking if anyone had or knew of anyone who had used all three together.



Now you're just be silly...
From what I've heard toremifene is very similar to nolva but does a better job of stimulating LH (does that sound right??). Alot of people are claiming that the toremifene is sufficient for pct but who really knows??? I've yet to hear any reliable feedback on its use with extended cycles. As far as it being retarded to run clomid and nolva together... well we know thats bs. If your just running some short ph cycle then toremifene or nolva may be sufficient but you probably know all this. Anyways Im coming up on 15 weeks into my cycle and I start pct on sunday. Ran test for 13 weeks- last 4 weeks of cycle hd50 @50mgs, WinZtrol @ 150mgs, -last 10 days sd @ 10-20mgs. I'm f*cked too with no hcg so I'm really going to be putting the Toremifene/Clomid combo to the test.

I'll run the toremifene as follows:
Days 1-4 @ 120 mgs
Days 5-11 @ 90 mgs
Days 12-18 @ 60 mgs
Days 19-27 @ 30 mgs

And the clomid:
Days 1-3 @ 150 mgs
Days 4-14 @ 100 mgs
Days 15-28+ @ 50 mgs

Thats the plan although I'll adjust it depending on how I feel but you can follow in my log if you want some real feedback. I get kind of lonely in there. :thumbsup:
 
datBtrue

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..I'm f*cked too with no hcg so I'm really going to be putting the Toremifene/Clomid combo to the test.
I've discovered that IGF-1 LR3 used towards the end of the cycle produces the same effect as hcg. Then of course I use the IGF-1 LR3 in PCT as well to great effect.

I'll be real interested to follow your PCT over in your log. Thanks for pointing me to it. I want to see how that Tor/Clo combo works for you.
 

dra05ke

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agreed. i have used IGF-LR3 in PCT with great success a number of times. it's a must for me and i feel everyone should give it a try. kept ALL my gains...size and strength and test levels returned to normal ..and brought the "boys" back to an even fuller size than before starting the cycle.
 
EasyEJL

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Many people beyond this board screw jars of peanut butter, does this make them right??? pfffft dude, using clomid or nolvadex is retarded period. I can understand if you're soo shutdown it hurts and you use clomid therapy for 3 days... but people so fond of these older, more dangerous SERM's usually lack that intelligence anyways bro.. I'd migrate AWAY from those places so it doesn't rub off.
now you are sharing your sexual secrets? ;)

I think too besides everyone feels this need to megadose the serms to get effect. when nolva is used for breast cancer, they get 10mg/day. Why the need to take 4x that ?
 
datBtrue

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now you are sharing your sexual secrets? ;)

I think too besides everyone feels this need to megadose the serms to get effect. when nolva is used for breast cancer, they get 10mg/day. Why the need to take 4x that ?
Most studies involving men, specifically those that attempt to raise sperm counts are commonly characterized by:

  1. dosing regimes of 20mg/day
  2. long duration to see any significant benefit to Test level & FSH
  3. no significant benefit to LH
Here is a representative example:


Fertil Steril. 1983 May;39(5):700-3

Increased sperm count in 25 cases of idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia following treatment with tamoxifen.

Buvat J, Ardaens K, Lemaire A, Gauthier A, Gasnault JP, Buvat-Herbaut M.

Twenty-five subfertile men, all presenting with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia, were treated with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for 4 to 12 months. Semen analysis was performed twice before treatment and at least twice after 3 to 12 months of treatment. In 14 patients, serum luteinizing hormone (LH), serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and plasma testosterone (T) were assayed before treatment, then again after 2 weeks and 12 weeks of treatment. Semen volume, sperm motility, and sperm morphologic characteristics were not modified by tamoxifen. Conversely, a twofold increase of both the mean sperm concentration and the mean total sperm count per ejaculate was observed during treatment (P less than 0.001). Mean values of T, LH, and FSH increased during treatment, but the difference was only significant for T (P less than 0.001) and FSH (P less than 0.05). Ten pregnancies (40% of cases) were reported during the 161 months of treatment.
 
datBtrue

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If one spends time looking at the Clomid and Tamox studies one will come to certain conclusions about the characteristics of each SERM.

Pheedno summarized it well several years ago in part as follows:

Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.

With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:
  1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux occuring PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
  2. If you're running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex**
** NOTE (on his rational for using an AI as an aid to Tamox):
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the beginning stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis.​

MY NOTE: Perhaps his his rational on an AI aiding Nolva is correct. See: Formestane increases the potency & may decrease the side-effects of Nolva study posted at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/68467-neoborns-formestane-eform-11.html#post1044885
 
RisingAgainst

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Speaking from past experience I presume?

What a tard.
Your opinion matters why exactly??? get bent dude, you have no place here considering your lack of intelligence. You contributed NOTHING to this thread... loser.
 

FrankJ

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Your opinion matters why exactly??? get bent dude, you have no place here considering your lack of intelligence. You contributed NOTHING to this thread... loser.
At least I contribute to the board and have an open mind instead of blindly listening to the teenage "experts" on here and repeating what they say like a parrot!

Face it, you suck at life!
 
RisingAgainst

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At least I contribute to the board and have an open mind instead of blindly listening to the teenage "experts" on here and repeating what they say like a parrot!

Face it, you suck at life!
blindly listening to teenage experts?? maybe you haven't noticed, but uhh I know more than these 'experts' ever will, and you sitting here referencing them only makes me laugh.. now quit tugging on my pant leg kiddo, before I pull em down and give you what you want. You contribute NOTHING... mr I have like a 100 posts and they all deal with flaming people... now, I will say it once again, GET BENT.
 
onelife

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a friend of mine decided to use all three after a hefty cycle.. he told me it was easily the worst pct he has ever went through.. sorry I dont have more details..
 

FrankJ

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You could only hope to be as respected as RA is around here. So, you shut your face newb.
Maybe around this teenager site - Ive been posting on EF for almost a decade before the recent "issues".

You are a newb to me, and will likely give up working out before you are my age, like most other quitters.

Fact of the matter is - he has no basis for his trash talking, childish BS remark.

Fact of the matter is people have been running Nolva + Clomid for a long time as PCT and are not stupid. Sure better options are available but only a complete retard like him would trash somebody for running that for PCT.
 

FrankJ

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Oh yeah - and anyone who has 1600+ posts since April is a total loser with no life but this website.

Get a job, or better yet a girlfriend.
 
RisingAgainst

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Maybe around this teenager site - Ive been posting on EF for almost a decade before the recent "issues".

You are a newb to me, and will likely give up working out before you are my age, like most other quitters.

Fact of the matter is - he has no basis for his trash talking, childish BS remark.

Fact of the matter is people have been running Nolva + Clomid for a long time as post cycle therapy and are not stupid. Sure better options are available but only a complete retard like him would trash somebody for running that for PCT.
"fact of the matter is" you spent a decade on a forum and think you know something, and you obviously STILL dont know a damn thing.. I said they're dumb, and THEY ARE, if you wanna go blind and turn yellow, then by all means run it you ignorant bastard. As far as "quitting" goes.. you're a retard.. I've been lifting longer than you and I'm only 21. LOL chew on that buddy.
Oh yeah - and anyone who has 1600+ posts since April is a total loser with no life but this website.

Get a job, or better yet a girlfriend.
It's not hard to accumulate posts dude, especially when you have something productive to bring to the board.. unlike yourself.

Get laid, or better yet, get suicidal!
 
datBtrue

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a friend of mine decided to use all three after a hefty cycle.. he told me it was easily the worst post cycle therapy he has ever went through.. sorry I dont have more details..
Thanks onelife. Sounds like they might interfere with each other. Clomid causes those emotional problems in many and Tor can do so a little at high dose...I wonder if the running Tor & Clo together REALLY messed w/ his head...

...anyway thanks for responding.

On a side note if you must or choose to use Nolva, using Formestane along w/ the Nolva has been shown to increase its potency and possibly lower the side-effects. Study: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/68467-neoborns-formestane-eform-11.html#post1044885
 
MentalTwitch

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Oh yeah - and anyone who has 1600+ posts since April is a total loser with no life but this website.

Get a job, or better yet a girlfriend.
I def have both and get good grades in school.
say it with me...Time management.
 
MentalTwitch

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Maybe around this teenager site - Ive been posting on EF for almost a decade before the recent "issues".

You are a newb to me, and will likely give up working out before you are my age, like most other quitters.

Fact of the matter is - he has no basis for his trash talking, childish BS remark.

Fact of the matter is people have been running Nolva + Clomid for a long time as post cycle therapy and are not stupid. Sure better options are available but only a complete retard like him would trash somebody for running that for PCT.
Haha thats justhow RA rolls man.
 
RisingAgainst

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Haha thats justhow RA rolls man.
Ya, I say whatever everybody knows is true and is scared to say.. I'm outspoken, and honest..

in other words:

FrankJ, I think you're a little crybaby who contributes NOTHING to this board, and would appreciate it, if you would dip up off my nuts before I embed a backhanded imprint in your skull.
 
EasyEJL

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I'm married with 2 kids and a 6 figure income (ok, just barely, like by a few hundred dollars) and i've got over 6000 since june. Christ, I do need a life :D
 
RisingAgainst

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I'm married with 2 kids and a 6 figure income (ok, just barely, like by a few hundred dollars) and i've got over 6000 since june. Christ, I do need a life :D
You must be a real loser bro... lol I have posted like 250 things just today... if you add all of my forum posts, it's well over 20k, and I have only been a forum rat for a year or so. It doesn't mean all I do is sit here and post... I'm just a fast typer.
 
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