Post - PCT bloodwork

[Gutterpump]

So, just got off the phone with my dr, and got the initial results on some bloodwork. Was wanting to see where I stand after my first PH cycle in the summer, and since I'm planning my next one I thought it would be necessary to see where I'm at. Getting the full report/papers on Monday and will post them for feedback.

Here were the 3 main concerns:

Total test - 381
free test - 10.5
DHEA - 196

Sort of boggles me since I ran a great post cycle therapy in august w/nolva + 6oxo extreme + leviathan, etc.

here was my p c t:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/69870-my-updated-post.html


Any thoughts/feedback on this would be good. My DHEA is below normal and my free test is on the low end of normal. My total test seems normal but again, on the low end of normal.

 

[Travis]

What was the time frame in terms of time from PCT this blood was taken? Also just out of curiosity what time of day was the blood taken?

6-oxo can be argued as potentially suppressive in PCT.

 

[Gutterpump]

I had the blood taken in the morning at around 11am this past monday.

P C T ended 08-14-07

Those number should be much better than that by now no?

Weird thing is I felt fine during and after p c t, and I feel ok now. Libido is good and strong as well.

 

[EasyEJL]

Where did it start before the cycle?

 

[Travis]

Where did it start before the cycle?

Yep, those could very well be normal levels for you.

 

[Gutterpump]

I'm not sure what the #'s were pre-cycle. Not too smart I know because I have nothing to base this off of. Most definately should have gotten work done beforehand.

Thing is, I didn't really feel shutdown or anything from this cycle, so maybe those #'s weren't too different beforehand and that's what I've been used to.

I don't understand that with free test that low, that I am still such a horny bastard and constantly have morning + random wood as well.

 

[Gutterpump]

I should also state that I've just finished a T3/clen cycle as of last weekend. I finished my clen over a week before these tests (not that it should have effected them) and my t3 I ramped off at 12.5mcg by saturday before the test. Weird thing is that he also said my thyroid appeared fine. Maybe the t3 threw off my DHEA levels?

 

[EasyEJL]

I can say at least my test levels last time they were tested (I think I was 35) were lower than yours are now, and not only did I not have issues, but also got my wife pregnant too (3 times since then actually, 1 kid, 1 miscarriage, one current pregnancy), so the numbers alone aren't all that important.

Theres one guy on AM that is the reverse, has really high #s, no libido, no energy, all the symptioms of low testosterone. So if you feel good, don't worry too much.

Depending on T3 dose, it probably didn't suppress your thyroid at all.

 

[Gutterpump]

Thanks, yeah that's what my doctor said today.
Basically I am on the lower end, but if there are no symptoms and I feel good (or even if there are fluctuating symptoms - which is normal), then there's not typically anything to worry about. He wants to have me checked in a couple months as well and then possibly refer me to an endocrinologist...but I think I am going to go ahead and then get checked 2 months after my next p c t.

I think I'm going to wait till November then and go ahead with my next cycle. Awaiting hcg that I have on order for on cycle and then taking Torem + Arom. + Sustain this time in post. I've done more research since the last, and want to keep it as safe as can be. No more nolva or 6oxo for me. Going to be interesting to see how bloodwork turns out after hcg / torem / dermacrine sustain this time. If it does end up being higher the same time after p c t, then maybe I am a bit supressed right now (although doubtful from the way I feel).

I will post my full bloodwork though when I pick it up Monday, and if there's anything questionable or a reason for me to hault, then I will.

 

[Gutterpump]

ps: Easy, I was worrying too much about myself to remember my manners. Congrats on the expected lil one and good luck with everything

 

[Travis]

Lookin forward to the rest of that bloodwork. Thanks for posting it btw!

 

[Gutterpump]

np. Can't wait to see/share the full results myself. Got my dr to test just about everything. Going to have to give some reps for some good feedback on the results too

I'm mainly looking to see where I stand for my plans in November, but I will likely give myself another test a month from this one as well to see if anything's changed.

 

[Hyde12]

So, just got off the phone with my dr, and got the initial results on some bloodwork. Was wanting to see where I stand after my first PH cycle in the summer, and since I'm planning my next one I thought it would be necessary to see where I'm at. Getting the full report/papers on Monday and will post them for feedback.

Here were the 3 main concerns:

Total test - 381
free test - 10.5
DHEA - 196

Sort of boggles me since I ran a great post cycle therapy in august w/nolva + 6oxo extreme + leviathan, etc.

here was my p c t:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/69870-my-updated-post.html


Any thoughts/feedback on this would be good. My DHEA is below normal and my free test is on the low end of normal. My total test seems normal but again, on the low end of normal.

I bet your DHT is high (or normal). DHT will cause you to feel good despite having low test. Also, your Estrodiol is probably good as you are having good morning erections.

 

[BigAk]

I think I'm going to wait till November then and go ahead with my next cycle.

Bad idea.... With every cycle you do, you're suppressing yourself further and further. that's even with half way recovery in between. Take my advise and give up AAS bro.. and strive hard to remain natural. I've been hovering in the 300'ds range for a year now.... and depending how I feel I though my test would be at least in the 500... I was wrong. Currently I'm working hard to see what I've f*cked up in my body while emabarking on AAS, competition, diets, pharmaceuticals, you name it. I have litterally put my nuts on the line for a few trophies on the shelf. Learn from my mistake. Don't mean to preach.... Just saying the truth as I see it...

Also, I would like to extend my congrats to EasyEJL for the new upcoming baby...

 

[Hyde12]

:goodpost:

 

[Gutterpump]

Bad idea.... With every cycle you do, you're suppressing yourself further and further. that's even with half way recovery in between.

Thanks for the advice. I've been considering it as well, even though I've only ventured into anabolic steroids once.

Somewhere on here I've also read about being able to 'reset' your hpta, via complete shutdown and then aggressive post cycle therapy., because sometimes it's possible that your hpta gets comfortable at a lower level and may not recover back to normal when it's been at that level for some time. My thoughts were that I would do a cycle of test, and then using hcg/torem/arom in post cycle therapy. This should shutme completely down and then bring me back quickly and be much more aggressive than my first(previous) post cycle therapy. Something that I am considering. Maybe this is a bad idea afterall though, but I do remember reading on here that completely switching it off and then 'reseting' can be a good thing to bounce your hpta back to a higher functioning level. We'll see how the rest of my bloodwork is though. It may even be that I will need TRT in the future. I'm definately not going to rush into anything now though.

 

[EasyEJL]

Bad idea.... With every cycle you do, you're suppressing yourself further and further. that's even with half way recovery in between. Take my advise and give up anabolic steroids bro.. and strive hard to remain natural. I've been hovering in the 300'ds range for a year now.... and depending how I feel I though my test would be at least in the 500... I was wrong. Currently I'm working hard to see what I've f*cked up in my body while emabarking on AAS, competition, diets, pharmaceuticals, you name it. I have litterally put my nuts on the line for a few trophies on the shelf. Learn from my mistake. Don't mean to preach.... Just saying the truth as I see it...

Also, I would like to extend my congrats to EasyEJL for the new upcoming baby...

Thanks!

My test is in the lower 200s, and i haven't done a cycle before. So I don't exactly feel a whole lot of fear over what levels are like afterwards, very little to loose. But obviously it all is still in working order (or I have a busy mailman)

 

[Hyde12]

Thanks!

My test is in the lower 200s, and i haven't done a cycle before. So I don't exactly feel a whole lot of fear over what levels are like afterwards, very little to loose. But obviously it all is still in working order (or I have a busy mailman)

200s is not good at all and is unhealthy (low test can kill you in the long run) Have you talked to a doctor and had
E2,LH,FSH,Thyroid, free test and cortisol tested? When my test was in the 200s and even in the 300s I felt like a$$. I decided to go on TRT because I was done having kids and I have had a vasectomy anyway. I feel a million times better since starting TRT. I go every week and get injections, but I just switched Dr.s and I think they are going to let me do them myself.

 

[EasyEJL]

Well, I'm near 40, so it was still over the bottom of normal range. I'd have to look back at it to be sure. basically my doctor's opinion was that unless I had symptoms of low test that he was going to leave it alone. I've never had any of the normal symptoms of it, and it was only once it was tested - so maybe a fluke that day

 

[Gutterpump]

I bet your DHT is high (or normal). DHT will cause you to feel good despite having low test. Also, your Estrodiol is probably good as you are having good morning erections.

I am thinking this must be true, since I am turning 30 and still have trouble with my skin off and on (oily skin (more complex skin type though), bacne (shoulders mostly), occassional bad skin on face, nothing cystic or severe though). This would not occur in most ppl with low test I wouldn't think. Could be high DHT.

My girlfriend can't keep up with me either. I usually need 3-4 sessions a day. 1 in the morning when I have time and 2-3 at night. Again, not really normal for someone with low test. The only time I can't keep up with myself is when I get busy with work. I can't go more than 2 days without sex.

Monday can't come soon enough now, really interested to see the full results.

 

[Hyde12]

If there are no symptoms then a low level may be the norm for your body. You probably have good free test and low SHBG. Free test is the one that matters.

 

[Hyde12]

Well, I'm near 40, so it was still over the bottom of normal range. I'd have to look back at it to be sure. basically my doctor's opinion was that unless I had symptoms of low test that he was going to leave it alone. I've never had any of the normal symptoms of it, and it was only once it was tested - so maybe a fluke that day

I could have been a fluke. Also, test fluctuates a lot during the day and the test should be done first thing in the morning as that is when test is at the highest.

 

[Gutterpump]

If there are no symptoms then a low level may be the norm for your body. You probably have good free test and low SHBG. Free test is the one that matters.

True, but my free test is 10.5 right now, isn't that really low or even below normal?

 

[BigAk]

True, but my free test is 10.5 right now, isn't that really low or even below normal?

10.5 is a bit above the normal range. The reason you're feeling pretty good is prob. because your shbg is low enough making more use of your bioavailable test; which what really matters.

I would not mess with you HPTA ever again if I were you... The theory to shut yourself again then restart is unproven and unbacked by science... Don't ever take a chance with your HPTA to see if something like this would work or not. What if it did the opposite??? Besides, You have just finished your PCT..... Give your body time to bounce back up.. Sometimes it may take up to a year or more to come back fully.

 

[BigAk]

Well, I'm near 40, so it was still over the bottom of normal range. I'd have to look back at it to be sure. basically my doctor's opinion was that unless I had symptoms of low test that he was going to leave it alone. I've never had any of the normal symptoms of it, and it was only once it was tested - so maybe a fluke that day

EJL.... I've heard quite a few similar cases like this... I agree... If you don't have symptoms, do not fix what's not broken.

I should listen to my advise every once a while... LOL

 

[EasyEJL]

Oh actually I left out one detail on the 3 pregnancies since that test reading... For the 2 that were on purpose, my wife had 1 menstrual cycle from discontinuing birth control to pregnant. On the accident well that was once out of 3 times unprotected...

So I really didn't worry about testicular function

 

[Gutterpump]

I'm also not factoring out the possibility that my pepperminty and very tastey nolva was bad or possibly underdosed.

I should wait to get the rest of my bloodwork before discussing more, and I was going to wait for my next post cycle therapy to do these items but since I have these things now --> hcg then 4 weeks of lr3 igf-1/torem/sustain + fenu (and/or high dose paravol in place of the fenu) and then bloodwork 1-2 months after. Good idea?

 

[EasyEJL]

I wish there was orally available HCG. there are a few hexarellin based oral IGF products that are ok. I'm a blood donor, so no needles

 

[Gutterpump]

Ok here's the results, they didn't test for everything I asked for (surprise surprise - guess I will have to go back and re-iterate my list of requests, or go to a private clinic for a full panel possibly)

Test: (1) CBC With Differential/Platelet

WBC 6.3 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.01 x10E6/uL 4.10-5.60
Hemoglobin 15.2 g/dL 12.5-17.0
Hematocrit 45.7% 36.0-50.0
MCV 91 fL 80-98
MCH 30.3 pg 27.0-34.0
MCHC 33.2 g/dL 32.0-36.0
RDW [H] 15.1% 11.7-15.0
Platelets 260 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 55% 40-74
Lymphs 34% 14-46
Monocytes 7% 4-13
Eos 4% 0-7
Basos 0% 0-3

Neutrophils (absolute) 3.5 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (absolute) 2.1 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes (absolute) 0.4 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2


Tests: (2) Comp. Metabolic Panel

Glucose, Serum 84 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 20 mg/dL 5-26
Creatinine, Serum 1.0 mg/dL 0.5-1.5
Bun/Creatinine Ratio 20 8-27
Sodium, Serum 141 mmol/L 135-148
Potassium, Serum 4.9 mmol/L 3.5-5.5
Chloride, Serum 104 mmol/L 96-109
Carbon Dioxide, Total 29 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.2 mg/dL 8.5-10.6

Protein, Total, Serum 6.9 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.4 g/dL 3.5-5.5
! Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.3 mg/dL 0.1-1.2
Alkaline Phospatase, S 82 IU/L 25-150

AST (SGOT) 26 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 28 IU/L 0-55


Tests: (3) Lipid Panel

Cholesterol, Total 132 mg/dL 100-199
Tryglycerides 42 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 59 mg/dL 40-59
! VLDL Cholesterol 8 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol 65 mg/dL 0-99


Test: (4) Testosterone, Free and Total

! Testosterone, Serum 381 ng/dL 241-827
Free Testosterone (Direct) 10.5 pg/mL 9.3-26.5

Test: (5) Dehydroepiandrosterone Sulfate

DHEA-Sulfate [L] 196 ug/dL 280-640


Test: (6) Vitamin B12 and Folate

Vitamin B12 [H] 1359 pg/mL 211-911
Folate (Folic Acid), Serum 20.1 ng/mL >5.4


Test: (7) TSH

TSH 2.582 uIU/mL 0.350-5.500

Test: (8) Thyroxine (T4)

Thyroxine (T4) [L] 4.4 ug/dL 4.5-12.0

 

[BigAk]

At a glance, first thing popped out is your low Cholesterol. Anything below 150 and you're looking at low test as a result....

Also.. T4 is below range... May need to check your thyroid... Have you messed around with cytomel before???

DHEA is below normal.. (like my case).. May want to check for adrenal function..

 

[Gutterpump]

Yes I just came off a T3 cycle a few days before this test. I was expecting a lower value for t4 but I guess it's not bad considering I only ramped up to 60mcg max on this run. Currently taking Now's Thyroid Energy + L-Tyrosine to kickstart my natty levels.

I wonder how I can address my low cholesterol if it's affecting my test?

Adrenal fatigue would make sense, I've abused caffeine + energy drinks for years and years (far too much for my own good) and have had very little sleep in my past (workaholic), and in the past 4-5 months it's been a lot of yohimbe, ephedrine, albuterol and clen.

 

[EasyEJL]

eat more saturated fats?

 

[BigAk]

Adrenal fatigue would make sense, I've abused caffeine + energy drinks for years and years (far too much for my own good) and have had very little sleep in my past (workaholic), and in the past 4-5 months it's been a lot of yohimbe, ephedrine, albuterol and clen.

Hahaha... Sorry .. not laughing at you.. sort of laughing at myself and the rest of the bodybuilders who have done our same stupid mistake. I was taking ECA for 5 years straight... It got to the point the **** didn't even affect me. I could take the stuff and fall asleep half hour later... LOL.. It wasn't until I had a panic attack that I decided to quit this life style. I haven't touched the stuff for a year now.. My DHEA is still low and I'm not sure how to address the issue.

As far as cholesterol, start eating organic eggs, red meat, cheese, and stay away from fat free crap.

Did you mess around with Flax seed oil in quantities too??

 

[Gutterpump]

ECA never really effected me from the first day I tried it =\
Albuterol does little for me, unless in high amounts. Clen worked though lol...especially with yohimbe. Clen is also the only substance that keeps me up at night. I can take 500mg of caffeine and fall asleep an hour later. In fact sometimes taking caffeine would help me fall asleep, if that makes sense. Probably because my body is addicted to it.

I thought my saturated fats were decent..I eat a lot of nuts, about 1000 calories worth of nuts a day, and usually have a decent amount of almond butter everyday. Also eat eggs everyday, but not many, just a few whole ones. I've also recently started a high fishoil diet, but it started after those tests. No red meat in my diet though. I've never taken flax oil either.

I once tried CLA in high amounts before...but it's been a while since that. After reading a lot about it, I've lost interest in that. It's fishoil now for me from 12-30 grams a day. Thinking of starting some GLA now too (evening primrose).

Not quite sure where this leaves me though lol. Looks like my diet could be the reason for lower test...and I may not be suppressed at all from that cycle (or even normally have naturally low levels)? I mean, during and after that cycle - I never once felt shutdown or supressed, so I'm confused.

 

[BigAk]

Not quite sure where this leaves me though lol. Looks like my diet could be the reason for lower test...and I may not be suppressed at all from that cycle (or even normally have naturally low levels)? I mean, during and after that cycle - I never once felt shutdown or supressed, so I'm confused.

I'd say you're fine... Like they all say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.. I should listen to myself sometimes...LOL

If you're feeling fine... and your sex life is good with your wife..etc.. Just let it go... Many guys do well on low test and don't require as much as others... Look at EasyEJL for instance..

Just take my advise and stay natural the rest of your life bro... Don't touch nothing that may impact your HPTA.

 

[EasyEJL]

I do need to get mine checked again. I was thinking of just doing ZRT labs blood spot test to see

 

[Gutterpump]

Just take my advise and stay natural the rest of your life bro... Don't touch nothing that may impact your HPTA.

Probably a good idea in my case. I think I'm going to kick most of my stims aside (started taking Reset AD as well recently), going to tweak my diet and then go the route of HCG + IGF-1 + Torem and see where that gets me, out of curiosity of my natural levels... and then just stick to the peptides (if anything) after and work on myself with patience. It's not like I have a bad frame to grow on at all or that I'm not making progress now even.

 

[Hyde12]

Yes I just came off a T3 cycle a few days before this test. I was expecting a lower value for t4 but I guess it's not bad considering I only ramped up to 60mcg max on this run. Currently taking Now's Thyroid Energy + L-Tyrosine to kickstart my natty levels.

I wonder how I can address my low cholesterol if it's affecting my test?

Adrenal fatigue would make sense, I've abused caffeine + energy drinks for years and years (far too much for my own good) and have had very little sleep in my past (workaholic), and in the past 4-5 months it's been a lot of yohimbe, ephedrine, albuterol and clen.

L-tyrosine might make it worse since it is a dopamine precursor, but I am not sure.

 

[Gutterpump]

I do need to get mine checked again. I was thinking of just doing ZRT labs blood spot test to see

I was looking into them too. Curious to see my e1/e2/e3 levels.

 

[Gutterpump]

L-tyrosine might make it worse since it is a dopamine precursor, but I am not sure.

I can look into it. The only additional L-tyrosine that I am taking (besides my Now Thyroid Energy) is in the Leviathan I've just started.

 

[Hyde12]

True, but my free test is 10.5 right now, isn't that really low or even below normal?

What is the range lab range for free test? If you have Good total test, but low free test then I would think that estrogen is the problem.

 

[Gutterpump]

Here are my values and normal ranges:

Testosterone, Serum 381 ng/dL ------> 241-827
Free Testosterone (Direct) 10.5 pg/mL ------> 9.3-26.5
DHEA-Sulfate [L] 196 ug/dL ------> 280-640

I'll have to do more tests to check e levels. I am almost positive that adrenal fatigue is at play here as well from years and years of messing with my Circadian rhythm (DJ + freelance workaholic / legal stim addict)

One other thing to note, I was taking effexor for 2.5 yrs to deal with my crazy stressful / work filled life at the time ( I was a freelance designer / workaholic ). I recently stopped taking this in January and would never take it again. Changes in lifestyle was/is a much better solution. Not too sure if that's had an effect on me either, having taken it for so long. It works on seratonin + norepinephrine pathways (and sometimes dopamine).

 

[ATH3386]

Test isnt bad though. 380 isnt terrible. You could possibly have a base test of 380. Look into eating more sat. beef fat. That should promote slightly higher test levels. ZMA also help restore test levels to normal every day. Try these out and let the body play its cards for the time being.

DHEA is low though..

 

[Gutterpump]

thanks, yeah - will try that.

I've also started taking pregnenolone (in my Reset AD) and am going to build a new supplement stack aimed at fighting adrenal fatigue. Reset AD will be used daily now for a while, as well as SAMe, DLPA, b5, b6, C (2-4g's slow release), E @ 800IU's ed, inositol, maca, powerFULL + poseidon. Going to cut down on stims for a long while.

 

[ATH3386]

thanks, yeah - will try that.

I've also started taking pregnenolone (in my Reset AD) and am going to build a new supplement stack aimed at fighting adrenal fatigue. Reset AD will be used daily now for a while, as well as SAMe, DLPA, b5, b6, C (2-4g's slow release), E @ 800IU's ed, inositol, maca, powerFULL + poseidon. Going to cut down on stims for a long while.

Good call. Try a natty test booster if test is a main concern. I like ActivaTe X or Blue Up without stim for you.

Would a cort control supplement help at all? I dont know .. Random thought.. Really talking out of my ass.

 

[Gutterpump]

Haven't had my cort checked even though I'd asked for it to be tested.

I've been thinking of using topical 7-keto dhea though as well as dermacrine sustain. Sustain might be a good product to use alongside ActivaTe X.