HELP - One year post PCT -- Test levels stuck in low 300

[BigAk]

I will be displaying all the bloodwork according to dates in time. Basically my problem is that I can't seem to be able to move my Total T to a good respectible range. I have cycled anabolic steroids for a few years then I was put on HRT for 1.5 year. Then I decided to come off completely and restart my HPTA.

How long do you think would take for my levels to come up?? What can I do to speed up the process? Any help is appreciated.

**********************************************

Aug 10, 2006 (Crashing after discontinuing HRT) Feeling like absolute crap.

Testosterone serum ---> 68 ---- (241 - 827)
Testosterone Free ----> 1.0 ----(8.7 - 25.1)

************************************************** *****

Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of Nolvadex exactly)

LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre post cycle therapy...
Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520) Extremely LOW...
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

Everything else was in range.

************************************************** *********************

Dr. Crisler requested that I supplement with 25mg/day of over the counter DHEA... I have ignored his suggestion and did not supplement. I was fearing that I may disrupt my hpta by doing so and didn't want to take any chances.

I got excited to realize I was on my way to recovery. So I decided to run a new panel 7.5 weeks later to monitor my progress; hence the following blood work:

************************************************** *********************

Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520) Still extremely LOW...
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

************************************************** ***********************

I got disappointed with the numbers.

Shortly after I crashed again in Jan. I decided to do a small test to measure total T only..

Jan 15, 2007 (Crash... felt terrible again)

Testosterone Serum ---> 246 ----- (241 - 827)

**********************************************

At that point, I decided to do some Nolvadex for a few months but didn't run bloodwork again. Shortly afterwards I started feeling very normal in all aspects of my life including libido etc...

Just recently I decided to run some bloodwork to see where I am. Here are the latest results:

************************************************** ***********************

Aug 30, 2007

Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)

************************************************** ***********************

So basically, you see that my test levels went up an average of 10 point per month since my crash in Jan... Should I go back on HRT? or shall I wait it out longer??

 

[EasyEJL]

You are still inside of normal range, and more than 10% over the bottom, so i'd say no unless you feel bad. If you aren't experiencing "side effects" of low testosterone, why monkey with it?

 

[BigAk]

You are still inside of normal range, and more than 10% over the bottom, so i'd say no unless you feel bad. If you aren't experiencing "side effects" of low testosterone, why monkey with it?

That's a sound advise EasyEJL I think... The only major symptom I'm experiencing is feeling down from reading the blood work results to be honest with you... My libido is on the low side but I can perform when the right time comes without cialis etc...

I've been talking with Eric and I'm getting ready to try the Sustain. I am hoping that will bump up my testosterone levels. I make myself feel better by saying that my levels are climbing up and will get up there in due time. They've come up on their own with no intervension 82 points since my post cycle therapy crash in Jan. During that time I recall feeling like absolute crap.

I feel like I need some counceling for my head... I'm seeing a shrink tomorrow.... lol

 

[EasyEJL]

the other thing you can try is just raw resveratrol. there are places you can get it for under $1 a day to do 1g a day.... the sustain is a bit more expensive (probably worth it too ) but if budget is a constraint... that level of resveratrol is what was used in the rat studies

 

[jomi822]

tamoxifen

40/30/20/10

 

[BigAk]

tamoxifen

40/30/20/10

Wouldn't the Sustain from PP accomplish the same thing... without the side effect of the Nolva??

 

[datBtrue]

Wouldn't the Sustain from PP accomplish the same thing... without the side effect of the Nolva??

Maybe maybe.

But w/ Nolva or Clomid especially there are studies that show low dose Clomid taken for a few months increases test in hypogonadal men.

But why go with what is proven to be effective?

Be a pioneer; blaze a new trail...maybe it'll work...but dude you said you are going to see a shrink because your test is too low...then why are you still playing around with something that hasn't been time tested? Do you want to prolong your agony?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[BigAk]

Maybe maybe.

But w/ Nolva or Clomid especially there are studies that show low dose Clomid taken for a few months increases test in hypogonadal men.

But why go with what is proven to be effective?

Be a pioneer; blaze a new trail...maybe it'll work...but dude you said you are going to see a shrink because your test is too low...then why are you still playing around with something that hasn't been time tested? Do you want to prolong your agony?

Just my 2 cents.

The Clomid is definitely good for a jump start.. That's what I'd used on my PCT last year. However, it's not a good drug to stay on for a prolonged period. Clomid is a hit & quit type of serm just to kick start your hpta. I was considering Nolvadex again.. but, I'm not sure if it will do the trick... As you see, I'm not estrogen dominant. My E2 is at 7 lol

I have also considered that the sustain may not do the trick for me since I am not estrogen dominant. So, I asked that question to the founder of Sustain. His reply was:

"Ahh good question.

There is activity beyond just an "anti-estrogen" activity... it is just the simplest way to market the product to be honest. We believe the resveratrol (and possibly the 7,8 benzoflavone) have a beneficial effects directly on the pituitary (for FSH/LH) and/or possibly even the testes for leydig cell sensitivity. (It also appears that these AI's won’t reduce estrogen further if your levels are already low)"

That's why I've decided to try it.

 

[EasyEJL]

Resveratrol does have good documentation for raising testosterone level, sperm count, and even sperm tubule in testicle count in rats. The problem is there isn't much documentation as to what happens if you discontinue resveratrol. I'm currently taking 1g/day orally

 

[BigAk]

The problem is there isn't much documentation as to what happens if you discontinue resveratrol. I'm currently taking 1g/day orally

Well.. Since it's a natural herb with so many good benefits and no side effects why not stay on a lower maintainance dose forever?? Something like 250mg/day??

EJL... What's your story bro... Are you natural?? been on hrt?? just done PCT?? etc... Plus.. Are you going to do blood work soon to see how the Res is doing for you at your dose? If so, when?

 

[EasyEJL]

I was just trying to hit midline of what the rat studies were corrected for metabolism, the range i've seen is 500mg - 2g for a 200lb person. At the 1g/day dosage, its at $1/day, which I dont mind for long term

 

[datBtrue]

The Clomid is definitely good for a jump start.. That's what I'd used on my post cycle therapy last year. However, it's not a good drug to stay on for a prolonged period. Clomid is a hit & quit type of serm just to kick start your hpta....

Okay bro I understand what you're saying...BUT there are studies where Clomid at say 25mg per day was used for several months by doctors and the result was higher overall testosterone. The result did not appear to be temporary. I think the studies were referred to on IBE's forum. They may be here as well.

 

[BigAk]

Okay bro I understand what you're saying...BUT there are studies where Clomid at say 25mg per day was used for several months by doctors and the result was higher overall testosterone. The result did not appear to be temporary. I think the studies were referred to on IBE's forum. They may be here as well.

Correct.... However, I'd fear using clomid for that long a period due to its nasty sides... I would do so with Nolvadex though.. @ 20mg/day. If the Sustain experiment fails I may do Nolva again... not sure at this point.

Another thing I'm getting ready to check for is possible adrenal fatigue via Saliva testing. This may explain why my dhea is chronically low hence my test levels. Actually I would not doubt it if I had adrenal fatigue... After years and years of competing and contest dieting.... not to mention the ECA stack that I was on year round for years.... Adrenal fatigue is extremely possible. This may explain why my test levels have been too low.

This sucks .... I'm getting tired of thinking it over....

 

[datBtrue]

This sucks .... I'm getting tired of thinking it over....

I know it does bro. Like you said though, you have recovered some ground over the last year, by this time next year your T levels will probably be acceptable. This is going to happen no matter what you do to help out.

In the mean time you could use Activate (Nettle root ligand Divanil) to increase free test to help you feel a little better. You probably would need to cycle on and off to get the same effect.

The other thing you might consider is just run a course of IGF-1 LR3. I used it once many months after a very thorough PCT failed to get me back to normal and it by-itself brought me back to feeling good again.

 

[BigAk]

I know it does bro. Like you said though, you have recovered some ground over the last year, by this time next year your T levels will probably be acceptable. This is going to happen no matter what you do to help out.

datBtrue.. Thank you for you encouragement and support. That's as important to me as a PCT is. I hate when one tells me to give up and just go back on HRT... I mean why go back on HRT when I obviously got a couple of good sized solid nuts and a humming pituitary?? After messing around with AAS for many years it's not realistic to expect miraculous results in a mere year. lol

In the mean time you could use Activate (Nettle root ligand Divanil) to increase free test to help you feel a little better. You probably would need to cycle on and off to get the same effect.

yea... I've read about Activate... It's good to know as an option on hand..

The other thing you might consider is just run a course of IGF-1 LR3. I used it once many months after a very thorough post cycle therapy failed to get me back to normal and it by-itself brought me back to feeling good again.

Here's where you really got my interest... Could you tell me more?? Why do you think IGF-1 cycle would help me?? Do you mean it may help expedite repairing my leydig cells in my testes? Would you share your experience with me and if you'd validated your results via blood work? What were the results? Lastly; I know that IGF-1 has been easily accessible through research labs, but I've heard that it has disappeared off their lists lately due to the very recent misshap... Is it still available to your knowledge?? Sorry for the many questions.. lol ... I'm all ears..

 

[datBtrue]

yea... I've read about Activate... It's good to know as an option on hand..

I actually did bloodwork before and during use of Nettle Root extract and my free test did go up...I felt it...the bloodwork confirmed it.

Here's where you really got my interest... Could you tell me more?? Why do you think IGF-1 cycle would help me?? Do you mean it may help expedite repairing my leydig cells in my testes? Would you share your experience with me and if you'd validated your results via blood work? What were the results? Lastly; I know that IGF-1 has been easily accessible through research labs, but I've heard that it has disappeared off their lists lately due to the very recent misshap... Is it still available to your knowledge?? Sorry for the many questions.. lol ... I'm all ears..

IGF-1 LR3 has quietly become a necessary part of post cycle therapy for guys that run long steroid cycles. This has been discussed a bit here and there on boards that can not be mentioned here...some of which have now closed and some of which are now private thanks to recent events.

The anectdotal evidence was always positive...from anyone that ever used IGF-1 LR3 in PCT. The details of why it works well were not too scientific but centered on quick restoration of Luteinizing Hormone-releasing Hormone.

Some are willing to forgo use of HCG on cycle if they know they have IGF-1 LR3 available for PCT. At the moment someone I know is on a lengthy cycle and they started IGF-1 LR3 last week as part of their cycle...They will stop IGF-1 LR3 4 weeks before PCT and of course run it then as well...and they report that their testicals feel fullerer since they started the IGF-1

...so yes I believe the mechanism focuses on LH.

I did not get blood work during the IGF-1 administration that restored me...I base it all on how I felt.

Do I believe that IGF-1 will expedite repairing your leydig cells...yes and I think if you google or search med journals you will find something that indicates a connection. IGF-1 LR3 even if you follow Grunt's protocol will go systemic. It has contributed to healing the lining of my stomach and digestive system...dramatically so!

 

[EasyEJL]

I actually did bloodwork before and during use of Nettle Root extract and my free test did go up...I felt it...the bloodwork confirmed it.

yeah, but did it stay up? or drop as soon as you stopped nettle root?


BigAK, I still think your test levels are high enough to stay away from anything more than herbals for the short term boost. Its still higher than mine, and I haven't done a cycle No sense in light of the current dea activities looking at IGF, or other prescription drugs unless you can get your doctor to write a prescription.

 

[datBtrue]

yeah, but did it stay up? or drop as soon as you stopped nettle root?

No those levels will drift back down of course. It is the presence of the ligand that allows more SHBG to be occupied. That is why you you run it cycles. Maybe 90 days on 30 days off.

It is a natural alernative to Proviron.

No sense in light of the current dea activities looking at IGF, or other prescription drugs unless you can get your doctor to write a prescription.

IGF-1 is not approved in the U.S. as a "drug" that can be prescribed by a doctor. So no doctor will be of help in that regard.

It is the position of attorneys knowledgeable in the area that IGF-1 LR3 is not illegal to possess...and yet your point EasyEJL is very valid. In todays climate I would not attempt to purchase a steroid or HGH...it is unthinkable and dangerous.

However people need to make their own decisions concerning SERMs or IGF-1 LR3.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have multiple bottles of different types of absinthe in my house. Its illegal to sell in the US, but not illegal to possess

 

[datBtrue]

I have multiple bottles of different types of absinthe in my house. Its illegal to sell in the US, but not illegal to possess

Hey who cares about T levels...break out the fun juice.:lol:

 

[EasyEJL]

Its great stuff for sure most people never get to try the real deal

 

[BigAk]

Hmmm... I didn't realize doctors can't prescribe IGF-1.. I may have to resort to research in case I finalize my decision to use.. But, you guys both bring up excellent points.

EasyEJL... You make me feel better when you say that my levels aren't that bad.. LOL ... Maybe, it's just a matter of time till my nuts ramp up the production.. I've only been at it a year. I've heard it may take a couple of years to recover totally after long suppression.

Let's see what the Sustain can do... Today was my second application of the stuff.

 

[KingMeso]

Sorry to somewhat hijack this thread, but where do most of you get your blood work done at? Regular Internal Medicine doctor or an Endocrinologist?

Everytime I've ever gotten blood work done, I've always asked for numbers and then ranges of those values. But my Internal Medicine doctor always gives me some bull**** excuse of why he doesn't have the exact numbers and ranges. He'll just say, "Your Free Testosterone levels are OK" and so on. Well, let's say the range is 30-300. If mine is 45, technically that's in the range, but on the low end. Would it be a good idea to go to an Endocrinologist to get exact readings?

 

[EasyEJL]

Sorry to somewhat hijack this thread, but where do most of you get your blood work done at? Regular Internal Medicine doctor or an Endocrinologist?

Everytime I've ever gotten blood work done, I've always asked for numbers and then ranges of those values. But my Internal Medicine doctor always gives me some bull**** excuse of why he doesn't have the exact numbers and ranges. He'll just say, "Your Free Testosterone levels are OK" and so on. Well, let's say the range is 30-300. If mine is 45, technically that's in the range, but on the low end. Would it be a good idea to go to an Endocrinologist to get exact readings?

just ask him for the actual lab results. he has to give you a copy if you ask, as you paid for it.

 

[Hyde12]

The Clomid is definitely good for a jump start.. That's what I'd used on my post cycle therapy last year. However, it's not a good drug to stay on for a prolonged period. Clomid is a hit & quit type of serm just to kick start your hpta. I was considering Nolvadex again.. but, I'm not sure if it will do the trick... As you see, I'm not estrogen dominant. My E2 is at 7 lol

I have also considered that the sustain may not do the trick for me since I am not estrogen dominant. So, I asked that question to the founder of Sustain. His reply was:

"Ahh good question.

There is activity beyond just an "anti-estrogen" activity... it is just the simplest way to market the product to be honest. We believe the resveratrol (and possibly the 7,8 benzoflavone) have a beneficial effects directly on the pituitary (for FSH/LH) and/or possibly even the testes for leydig cell sensitivity. (It also appears that these AI's won’t reduce estrogen further if your levels are already low)"

That's why I've decided to try it.

Your E2 is low. This could be some of your problem. Also, were you feeling good on HRT? If so, then why don't you go back on it and stop this uphill battle. People say "but its for life" well, at least you will have the test levels of an 18 year old when you are 80 :twisted:

 

[s.norman]

That's a sound advise EasyEJL I think... The only major symptom I'm experiencing is feeling down from reading the blood work results to be honest with you... My libido is on the low side but I can perform when the right time comes without cialis etc...

I've been talking with Eric and I'm getting ready to try the Sustain. I am hoping that will bump up my testosterone levels. I make myself feel better by saying that my levels are climbing up and will get up there in due time. They've come up on their own with no intervension 82 points since my post cycle therapy crash in Jan. During that time I recall feeling like absolute crap.

I feel like I need some counceling for my head... I'm seeing a shrink tomorrow.... lol

have u used hcg at all bro? then hit the combo of nolva/igf1/fenugreek. these 3 have worked like a charm 4 me after 6 month cycles w/ high dosage suppressive gear. alway ways gave me high normal ranges and i'm 40 now. maybe that might help ya out. u will succeed stay focused and positive.

 

[s.norman]

fenugreek seems to be the herb that has some popularity 4 restoring test levels among users. now that i'm typing this and i'm in 1st week of pct using nolva/igf1lr3, i will break out the raw fenugrrek powder and take 3 grams daily raising slightly till finished. then get bloodwork

 

[ECTOmorph]

big ak i wouldnt mess with an ai such as sustain as your e2 is aready very low, optimal range is really around 20-35

you need to stay on nolva at about 60mg a day for a month 40 for a month then 20 for a month

i would also run a natural test booster as well (dymatize z force is very cheap and it worked great for me) Id run that for a month, off for a month, then back on for a month

after that 3 month period is over wait another month without using anything then get tested again

 

[BigAk]

have u used hcg at all bro? then hit the combo of nolva/igf1/fenugreek. these 3 have worked like a charm 4 me after 6 month cycles w/ high dosage suppressive gear. alway ways gave me high normal ranges and i'm 40 now. maybe that might help ya out. u will succeed stay focused and positive.

Yes... I've use HCG last year when I did my restart. As a matter of fact I have measured my testosterone while I was only on HCG and 4 weeks after my last inject of test enth. The results were as follows:

Testosterone, Serum ----> 583 ---- (241 - 827)
Free Testosterone ----> 14.6 ---- (8.7 - 25.1)

That's a proof that my nuts work.

I have never used igf-1... I guess I'm scared of suppressing my own production of HGH and ending up with another battle on hand. I guess I would like to give it a try but under a doctor supervision. We'll see... I'm not ruling it out and I may end up using it.

fenugreek seems to be the herb that has some popularity 4 restoring test levels among users. now that i'm typing this and i'm in 1st week of post cycle therapy using nolva/igf1lr3, i will break out the raw fenugrrek powder and take 3 grams daily raising slightly till finished. then get bloodwork

I'm not sure about fenugreek people... I looked it up and was not impressed.. Look what "Testosterone Nation" had to say:

Fenugreek

While this supplement has been around for some time, certain people in the industry are trying to make this out to be something it's not. They claim it may act in the same manner as tribulus and will raise Testosterone and will even increase appetite to boot!

So, what's the truth? Fenugreek hasn't been shown to increase Testosterone levels and even worse, can inhibit T3 production! Ah! Not only this, but the fact that it increases appetite isn't an impressive feat. Why? Well, it increases insulin levels, causing hypoglycemia. So, as a result, you start to get hunger cravings in order to raise blood glucose once again. Furthermore, this increased insulin secretion can lead to an increase in fat storage. Throw this out! I can say, however, that Fenugreek is better than Fenuswede or Fenupole.

big ak i wouldnt mess with an ai such as sustain as your e2 is aready very low, optimal range is really around 20-35

you need to stay on nolva at about 60mg a day for a month 40 for a month then 20 for a month

i would also run a natural test booster as well (dymatize z force is very cheap and it worked great for me) Id run that for a month, off for a month, then back on for a month

after that 3 month period is over wait another month without using anything then get tested again

I have already quit the Sustain after three applications actually.. You're right; at an E2 = 7, it's wrong to use sustain.

But, why do you guys think Nolvadex would do anything when my E2 is at 7 ???? I have hardly any E2 to block??? As far as the z force, I'm already taking ZMA and took Tribulus before but didn't do a difference.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have already quit the Sustain after three applications actually.. You're right; at an E2 = 7, it's wrong to use sustain.

have you decided what you are doing with the open bottle?

 

[BigAk]

have you decided what you are doing with the open bottle?

Hahaha... I'd say it's yours now EJL; except that I may still want to use it in the future as I'm still a fan of Resvertoral. But, in case I change my mind, I'll find you...

 

[ECTOmorph]

Yes... I've use HCG last year when I did my restart. As a matter of fact I have measured my testosterone while I was only on HCG and 4 weeks after my last inject of test enth. The results were as follows:

Testosterone, Serum ----> 583 ---- (241 - 827)
Free Testosterone ----> 14.6 ---- (8.7 - 25.1)

That's a proof that my nuts work.

I have never used igf-1... I guess I'm scared of suppressing my own production of HGH and ending up with another battle on hand. I guess I would like to give it a try but under a doctor supervision. We'll see... I'm not ruling it out and I may end up using it.





I'm not sure about fenugreek people... I looked it up and was not impressed.. Look what "Testosterone Nation" had to say:

Fenugreek

While this supplement has been around for some time, certain people in the industry are trying to make this out to be something it's not. They claim it may act in the same manner as tribulus and will raise Testosterone and will even increase appetite to boot!

So, what's the truth? Fenugreek hasn't been shown to increase Testosterone levels and even worse, can inhibit T3 production! Ah! Not only this, but the fact that it increases appetite isn't an impressive feat. Why? Well, it increases insulin levels, causing hypoglycemia. So, as a result, you start to get hunger cravings in order to raise blood glucose once again. Furthermore, this increased insulin secretion can lead to an increase in fat storage. Throw this out! I can say, however, that Fenugreek is better than Fenuswede or Fenupole.







I have already quit the Sustain after three applications actually.. You're right; at an E2 = 7, it's wrong to use sustain.

But, why do you guys think Nolvadex would do anything when my E2 is at 7 ???? I have hardly any E2 to block??? As far as the z force, I'm already taking ZMA and took Tribulus before but didn't do a difference.

Nolvadex is not an AI, it is a SERM, but the reason you need to hop back on it, is because it kickstarts your HPTA again.

About the Z Force, I have alos tried ZMA and Trib before w nothing, but Z Force did work for me

 

[EasyEJL]

Hahaha... I'd say it's yours now EJL; except that I may still want to use it in the future as I'm still a fan of Resvertoral. But, in case I change my mind, I'll find you...

I've actually got some 98% resveratrol inbound too, was going to make my own with penetrate as a carrier I've been liking the 1g of active resveratrol a day orally. Definitely some nice stuff.

Note that only the last pregnancy was possibly resveratrol induced