need help getting off AIFM (transdermal ATD) w/o rebound

alphaIII

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I know I'm gonna get torn apart here, but I need advice on the proper way to do this.

Here's the long story of why I am where I am right now...

I started AIFM use beginning of Oct 06. I used 1 spray EOD, and thats it. I used it until around Xmas time (so like 10-12 weeks I'm guessing) at that low dose then stopped. I didn't notice any sides from stopping.

A week or 2 before Easter 07 (so beginning of April), I started using it again - also at 1 spray EOD. I used it continuously until about mid-June, so another 10 or so weeks. One big difference this time around was that I left town alot for long weekends. I would use the AIFM EOD, then "front load" a dose right before I left to give me 2 days in a row, followed by 3-4 days of not using it. I think this happened 4 times during that 10 or so week run.

Mid June I stopped again...no taper - shouldn't need it at 1 EOD right? Anyway, I noticed some increased nipple puffiness at about the 8-10 day mark without it (while also using tongkat lj100 @ 80mg 5 days on, 2 days off). So I used it again, i think only 3 doses, 1 ED, then I went on a 10 day vacation, so I didn't use it again for about 2 weeks (I think 15 days). I cut back on the LJ100, thinking it might be the culprit for the sides (80mg a day, 2 days on, 1 day off).

After the 2 weeks off, I again went back on the AIFM, I only used a couple days of AIFM @ 1 spray a day since I was noticing a little extra nipple puffiness again, then no use for 10-11 days. I also dropped the Tongkat completely a couple days after stopping the AIFM.

I then started again after the 10-11 days @ 1 spray EOD, and used it over about 10-12 days, with that sort of "load" dosing at the end - 2-3 days in a row (so maybe 7 doses), then stopped use.

Now things got bad. I was off for 11 days. I noticed nipple puffiness and some water retention at about the 1 week mark. On that 11th day, my nipples started itching bigtime, and the puffiness was bad. Over the next couple days, I had full blown gyno symptons - itching, burning, puffiness, slight increase in the size of the hard lump under my one nipple. I started back on AIFM (I had no nolva, never thought Id need it), 1 spray ED. That wasn't stopping the symptoms (duh, estrogen already bound to the receptors, that takes a while for those effects to stop), so I upped to 2 sprays a day. I did twice a day dosing for I think 4 days. I got symptoms to go away, I am now probably a bit worse off than where I was way back before I ever used AIFM in terms of nipple puffiness, and the lump under the left is back to where it was if not slightly bigger
 

alphaIII

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Tues Aug. 21 I started to taper down. I did 1 week @ 1 spray ED. I messed up and missed this tues, so I had a 48 hr gap between doses, but between the Wed pm dose and my Fri am dose was only 36 hours.

In talking with folks on the AF board, I should NOT be tapering by increasing time between doses, but instead be reducing the dose (volume) but stay on an ED schedule. I got an insulin syringe to get accurate volumes. 1 pump is supposed to be 0.2mL.

Apparantly the gaps in dosing were enough to mess things up again, b/c yesterday the itchiness/tingling feeling in my left nipple started back up. I had been doing 1 spray AIFM per day until Mon night, then went ~48 hours and dosed again Wed night, then ~36 hrs and dosed again Fri morning.

Since the itchiness started up with that regimen, I dosed again last night, 0.2mL, and will do 0.2mL ED for the next week. Then I want to half the dose to .1ml ED for a week or 2, then drop to 0.05mL for another week or 2. Does this sound like the best idea to taper off this stuff?
 

alphaIII

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I have no doubt that my scattered dosing had my body saying WTF, and my estrogen and test were bouncing around a bit. Lesson learned on my end. Too bad I had to figure it out the hard way.

I had some bloodwork done the day after my last 2 spray a day dosing. My test was only 850, and apparantly I have "not much estradiol to speak off." I haven't gotten all the numbers yet. I guess all other hormones were mid-normal (might mean prolactin was higher than I'd want though). I thought my test should be alot higher than that. I'm kinda worried that I really shut things down during that period when the estrogen had to have skyrocketed to give me such bad gyno symptoms. Maybe my test was just on the upswing when I got the bloodwork.

The bad thing is since I've dropped from 1 spray a day, the morning woods haven't been there for a few days. I'm so paranoid I'm suppressed from this constant tampering with my hormones. On the other hand, yesterday I had some spontaneous happiness below the belt, so the high dosing of ATD may have sent estradiol low enough to kill libido. The problem is that the nipple sides returned the same day the libido improved again.

So sorry for such a long story. But there it is. I put myself in a bad spot by not using this stuff the right way.

All help is much appreciated.
 

alphaIII

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Forgot to add...

I was using Vitex during that first 1-1.5 weeks of symptoms in case prolactin was a problem too. I dropped the vitex after reading about it raising progesterone. Alot of people swear it works to curb prolactin, but I don't want to alter any more than I have to at this point.

I did pick up some B6 today to use @ 200mg/day to help with keeping prolactin in check (hopefully).

I guess if that is the culprit I'll need some low dose cabergoline (0.25mg twice per week?), but with all the press about it causing heart valve defects, I don't want to go that route unless necessary (and yes I know the doses in that study were way higher).
 
rpen22

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Is AIFM just ATD, or is it ATD and DHEA?
 

alphaIII

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I probably should give some background so you guys know why I used this stuff.

I've never used anabolic steroids before. And I never intentionally used a prohormone (I know that sounds funny, but I'll explain). Unfortunately, I did fall victim to the hype machine VPX, and used their methoxygen my freshman year of undergrad (so just over 6 years ago). Supposedly, this crap was non-androgenic, and the Androtriol it contained was supposed to be a cortisol suppressor.

Well about 2-3 weeks after I finished using it I got gyno, and since I didn't know much about that then, I used nothing and didn't go to the doc. I stopped the other stuff I was on (I think it was an ecdy product) thinking that was the cause and that it would go away. Well as a result I've had a oval shaped lump under my left nipple and puffiness in both ever since.

Long story short, I got bad about training, diet, and drinking for a year and a half or so, and I hit a point where my bodyfat got to about 18-19%, and my libido was crap. It took a night of being nonfunctional in the sack to get my motivation back. That was around July 06. I got religious about lifting again, improved my diet alot, and cut the drinking. Gains were slow in the beginning, and libido still wasn't back to what I thought it should be at 24 years old. That eventually got me to AIFM: I figured the better test to e ratio should help me lean out and not lose alot of muscle; and people were reporting ATD helping reduce gyno/nipple puffiness as well as jacked up libido if the dose wasn't too high. That's basically what got me on the stuff. I can say it pretty much delivered in all regards until these last couple months when I got things all out of whack.
 

alphaIII

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No ideas if I'm doing this correctly?

I need off this as quickly as possible. I've been using this on and off for far too long, and the consistent higher dosing lately is causing too much shedding. I didn't notice a ton of hairloss before, but these last few weeks have definitely made a noticeable difference.

I was thinking maybe I need to go from .2mL to 1.5mL, then .1mL, then 0.05mL. Instead of halving from .2 to .1 so quickly. Thoughts? The other thing I'm not sure on is the duration at each dose. Seeing that I got sides so quickly after dropping to the EOD dosing (started that Mon, itchiness by Fri), do you think 5 days at .2mL ED is sufficient. Obviously, the longer I stay at that full does, after having been there for awhile already, it's just gonna make it harder to taper down without sides.

Should I have a SERM on-hand while tapering off the ATD? Ralox or Torm?
 

Rictor33

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Here's the best idea I have for you.... Go to a doctor. Honestly, you seem to be at a point where it would be irresponsible for anyone on here to give you advice. You're still young. DO NOT PLAY ALCHEMIST with your body, you could mess yourself up for a long time. What you did what not smart and by you trying to fix it yourself is also not smart. Go to your primary care physician and get your bloodwork done. Tell him EVERYTHING... And as a note to others.. If something is going seriously wrong.. See a professional.
 
bioman

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He has a mild case of gyno, not brain cancer...I don't think it's irresponsible of any of us to try to help him.

If he tells his MD everything chances are he'll lose whatever health insurance he has and be labelled a steroid user unfairly. An MD is still going to be there if all else fails.

AlphaIII..yes, you should use a SERM in conjunction with the ATD. There are some threads here outlining Raloxifene and ATD use for gyno reduction. Follow the protocols listed and if after a few months you don't see dramatic improvement, then go see your Dr and fess up.

I would ditch that transdermal and just go with pill form ATD to ensure proper dosing. The DHEA may also be complicating matters and doesn't have a place in gyno reduction.
 

alphaIII

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Here's the best idea I have for you.... Go to a doctor. Honestly, you seem to be at a point where it would be irresponsible for anyone on here to give you advice. You're still young. DO NOT PLAY ALCHEMIST with your body, you could mess yourself up for a long time. What you did what not smart and by you trying to fix it yourself is also not smart. Go to your primary care physician and get your bloodwork done. Tell him EVERYTHING... And as a note to others.. If something is going seriously wrong.. See a professional.
Already went to the doc, explained I was using a LEAGL, OTC aromatase inhibitor, and had bloodwork done. Test 850, estradiol "not much to speak of", and everything else (DHEA, LH, FSH, progesterone, not sure what else was tested for) "mid-normal". I am waiting on the actual numbers in the mail. Keep in mind the blood was taken after 3-4 days of 0.2mL AIFM ED, followed by 3 days of 0.2mL twice per day. So that explains why estradiol was back to nil, but I thought test should be higher.

Her advice was to taper off of the transdermal and come back for more bloodwork. The thing is, she knew nothing about ATD, and her method of tapering involved the following:
week 1: 1 pump (0.2mL) ED
week 2: 0.2mL EOD
week 3: 0.2mL every 3rd day
week 4: 0.2mL every 4th day
week 5: 0.2mL every 5th day
week 6: 0.2mL every 6th day.

I ran this by the folks on the AF board and they basically said that is a bad idea. It's erratic dosing after the 2nd week, and was told even the EOD dosing is a disruptive pattern.

I did a full week of 1 spray ED, then started the EOD pattern (as mentioned above). The itchiness started after a few days, so I went back to 0.2mL for 5 days. As of yesterday, I dropped to 0.15mL. I will do the 0.15mL for 5-7 days, then reduce to 0.1mL for a 1-2 weeks, then 0.05mL for 1-2 weeks. This is all measured using an insulin syringe. This seems like a pretty gradual taper to me. I don't know how else to set it up. Any other ideas?
 

alphaIII

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He has a mild case of gyno, not brain cancer...I don't think it's irresponsible of any of us to try to help him.

If he tells his MD everything chances are he'll lose whatever health insurance he has and be labelled a steroid user unfairly. An MD is still going to be there if all else fails.

AlphaIII..yes, you should use a SERM in conjunction with the ATD. There are some threads here outlining Raloxifene and ATD use for gyno reduction. Follow the protocols listed and if after a few months you don't see dramatic improvement, then go see your Dr and fess up.

I would ditch that transdermal and just go with pill form ATD to ensure proper dosing. The DHEA may also be complicating matters and doesn't have a place in gyno reduction.
Thanks for the advice. I orderd some Toremifene yesterday actually. I hadn't gotten feedback as to which SERM to get, and since I was reducing the AIFM dose and wanted to make sure I had one getting here soon, I used what I read on the boards to make a decision. Although Ralox seemed to be the SERM of choice for gyno reduction, alot of folks here (including Dr. D) think Torm is a great SERM and is just as good as Nolva for combating gyno, and it it has the best safety profile. Do you think Torm is a suitable sub for Ralox?

My issue here isn't really to reduce the gyno long term (although if it does reduce, wonderful). I tried to do that with AIFM and I used it way too long and never dosed consistently. I'll live with whatever gyno is still there, as long as it doesn't get worse. I just want to taper off the ATD and not experience the same sides I did when I just stopped it last time - so I got a SERM on the way.

My goal here is to do this as quickly as possible (the ATD taper) and use as low a dose of Torm as I can get away with, while avoiding the estrogen rebound issues. As long as the gyno doesn't get worse, and I don't feel the shutdown issues I felt (crashed libido), then I'm fine with it. I just want to avoid long term negative effects of this. In the end, gyno is a cosmetic issue and making sure my endocrine system is still in check is the priority.
 

alphaIII

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I believe I read in one of the threads that

60mg Ralox = 20mg Nolva = 60mg Torm

Is this correct?

In regards to dropping the AIFM for oral ATD, I've read of more rebound issues with the oral due to the short 1/2 life of the drug, so I'd think transdermal should provide steadier blood levels of ATD, right? Besides, ensuring the dosing shouldn't be too much of a problem since I am measuring out the volume to apply using an insulin syringe.

Unfortunately, you're probably right about the DHEA not helping. The AF folks claim the amount of DHEA in AIFM is very low and shouldn't have any negative impact whatsoever on gyno, but then again, it's their product.

I'm not tryin to disregard the advice here by any means. If it's necessary to drop the transdermal for pill I could do that. It's just that that adds another variable into this situation. I have no idea what dose of oral I would need to put me at the dose I'm getting now (since the amount of ATD per 0.2mL of AIFM is not specified; I'm not sure there are any accurate numbers on the bioavailability anyway), and I'd hate to find that by switching to oral I am actually dosing higher. That kind of defeats the idea of tapering off the drug.

As far as using it along with the SERM for a few months for gyno reduction, I just don't think I should stay on the ATD any longer than necessary right now. I've used it for too long as it is. I would essentially be following a shortened version of that protocol you mention anyway, as the ATD taper will be a few weeks, and Torm will be subbed for Ralox. As I said, I'm just trying to drop this AIFM for good without the estrogen rebound problems.
 

Rictor33

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Good luck with your recovery :)

ps. I just prefer to procede with caution. You can never be too careful when it comes to stuff like this that could have potential long-term effects. Good to know that you saw a doctor though. I just get a little worried when people start trying to fix endocrine imbalances themselves.
 
bioman

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Rictor's caution is indeed warranted and we wouldn't want to dissuade you from seeking help if it's really needed. Unfortunately, IMO with gyno you have a better shot of controlling it on your own than most MD's will..ie using info on this board. I don't think that statement is over-the-top.

Torm should work fine..it's my serm of choice though it's pricey to run for very long. As for tapering..ATD gives me the least amount of problems of any AI. I usually run it at 75 mg for a week to ten days, then drop to 50 mg for 2-3 weeks or until gyno disappears. Then I taper to 25 mg for a week or two afterwards and drop it when I feel confident the gyno is gone.

ATD seems to bind to E receptors for an usually long time evidenced by little to no rebound and the fact it kills my libido for weeks after cessation. The libido part sucks, but not having an E rebound, as lots of other AI's will do, is the key to keeping gyno at bay as far as I am concerned.
 

alphaIII

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Good luck with your recovery :)

ps. I just prefer to procede with caution. You can never be too careful when it comes to stuff like this that could have potential long-term effects. Good to know that you saw a doctor though. I just get a little worried when people start trying to fix endocrine imbalances themselves.
Understandable. I am worried about it too. The bad thing about docs is that they aren't always open minded. I agreed with her that tapering off is the way to go, but it seems unavoidable I'm going to have rebound issues and sides from it, yet she wasn't willing to prescribe me anything to prevent that.
 

Rictor33

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Understandable. I am worried about it too. The bad thing about docs is that they aren't always open minded. I agreed with her that tapering off is the way to go, but it seems unavoidable I'm going to have rebound issues and sides from it, yet she wasn't willing to prescribe me anything to prevent that.
My doc was not very nice to me when I had bad sides from M1T.. I even oversaw my report and it said "abused anabolic steroids" on it. I asked him why the hell he would put something like that on there and he just said it was his responsibility. Yeah, right. You are right though, most doctors (especially general practicioners) are usually very conservative as far as their views on supplements and performance enhancers. Endocrinologists are the ones that you can work with about this stuff.
 
bioman

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Even then you gotta find a good endo who knows their steroidal pathways. In talking to an MD who almost became an endo, he claimed that 99% of their work deals with insulin, diabetes, obesity and all the factors dealing with that.

My old MD looked me up and down one time and asked "Yer not using any of those damned Prooo hormones are ya? They'll make your nuts like raisins..I've seen it."

lol
 

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