Tamox and Torem differences?

[Ronnie]

Whats makes one better than the other? I have tamox citrate for my pct in about 4 weeks but might go with torem if its that big of a difference.:think:

 

[FrankJ]

From what I understand Tamox is more specific to breast tissue and Torm is more specific to the testes.

So it theoretically should bring your balls around better, but not be as effective against gyno.

 

[Dr Packenwood]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

This should be required reading for everyone here.

Thesinner really put something good together here. I spent a while reading it, but its totally worth it.

 

[Ronnie]

Thats great but it just says its popular on this board and he doesnt know why.

 

[Travis]

Thats great but it just says its popular on this board and he doesnt know why.

I dont think for any other reason then that it was recommended by some respected members. And the feedback has been pretty good. Maybe I'm wrong about that though...

 

[DR.D]

Thats great but it just says its popular on this board and he doesnt know why.

LOL, run a search my friend! There are at least 2 old threads here where I gave study after study comparing Tam VS Tor. It was a personal battle of mine for sure. All I can say is that after the dust clears and you've read all the studies, just try toremifene once and you'll never use another SERM again, unless it's raloxifene on cycle or tamoxifen specifically for gyno. Tor works just as well actually, but kinda expensive for sure. Still, in pct it's worth every penny.

 

[rugger13]

Torem will still help against gyno right? From what I understand, torem helps more with the boys and tamox helps more with gyno. I just want to know if torem will help with gyno or not. I want something thats going to do both. I have read a lot that tamox is more for gyno and torem is more for testes. Will they both do both, if not which one will, more than the other....sorry if that's confusing...

 

[DR.D]

Torem will still help against gyno right? From what I understand, torem helps more with the boys and tamox helps more with gyno. I just want to know if torem will help with gyno or not. I want something thats going to do both. I have read a lot that tamox is more for gyno and torem is more for testes. Will they both do both, if not which one will, more than the other....sorry if that's confusing...

Yes, it works just as well if not better than tamox! It works by at least 2 mechanisms:

1) enhanced cell death (apoptosis)
2) arrested cell proliferation (mitosis inhibition)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=8350365&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

[rugger13]

Yes, it works just as well if not better than tamox! It works by at least 2 mechanisms:

1) enhanced cell death (apoptosis)
2) arrested cell proliferation (mitosis inhibition)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=8350365&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

so what do you recommend for my rats after an mdrol cycle?

 

[DR.D]

so what do you recommend for my rats after an mdrol cycle?

Tor or clom, not tam! :thumbsup:

 

[Ronnie]

Im running Torem after my Drol cycle and loving it so far!

 

[rugger13]

alright thanks guys, I think im going to run torem after all the great reviews I'm hearing

 

[phrost]

Here are some studies I found

Long Term Safety vs Tamoxifen

Breast. 2006 Apr;15(2):142-57. Epub 2005 Nov 9.

Toremifene: an evaluation of its safety profile.

Harvey HA, Kimura M, Hajba A.

Division of Hematology/Oncology, Penn State College of Medicine, Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, 500 University Drive, Hershey, PA 17033, USA. [email protected]

Toremifene has been in clinical use for 8 years for the treatment of advanced hormone-sensitive breast cancer and the adjuvant treatment of early breast cancer. More than 350,000 patient treatment years have accumulated, sufficient to allow evaluation of its longer-term safety profile in comparison with tamoxifen and, where possible, with raloxifene and aromatase inhibitors. We reviewed all preclinical and clinical safety data from 1978 to 2004 and comparative clinical safety data between October 1995 and the end of 2004. Secondary endometrial cancer incidence was lower with toremifene than with tamoxifen and was similar to that with raloxifene. It is speculated that toremifene may unmask existing endometrial tumors rather than induce new events. The risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and cataract may be lower with toremifene than with tamoxifen and the risk of pulmonary embolism and deep vein thrombosis lower than with raloxifene. Beneficial estrogen agonistic effects were equivalent to those of tamoxifen regarding bone mineral density and superior regarding lipid profiles.

PMID: 16289904 [PubMed - in process]

Efficacy compared to Tamoxifen

Gan To Kagaku Ryoho. 2005 Oct;32(10):1415-9.

[Experience of high-dose toremifene treatment for postmenopausal women with metastatic breast cancer]

[Article in Japanese]

Yamamoto Y, Kawazoe T, Iwase H.

Dept. of Breast & Endocrine Surgery, Faculty of Medical and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kumamoto University.

Toremifene (TOR), a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), showed efficacy equivalent to Tamoxifen (TAM) in terms of the objective response rate, stable disease, time to progression and overall survival in patients with metastatic breast cancer (MBC). High-dose TOR is also effective for patients with TAM-resistant breast cancer. We tried to study retrospectively the efficacy and the safety of high-dose TOR treatment for patients with MBC in our hospital. Ten patients received TOR 120 mg daily. Most of the patients were treated with one or more endocrine agents before high-dose TOR. Objective response and clinical benefits were found in 3 patients (30%) and 7 patients (70%), respectively. Median time to progression and median overall survival were 9 months and 21.5 months, respectively. In our study,we found the efficacy for patients with hormone receptor negative, TAM resistance and aromatase inhibitor (AI)-resistance breast cancer. Adverse events induced by high-dose TOR treatment were tolerable. High-dose TOR may be one of the optional treatments for patients with MBC after TAM and AI treatment.

PMID: 16227740 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Benefits for the prostate

Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2006 Mar;15(3):293-305.

Toremifene--a promising therapy for the prevention of prostate cancer and complications of androgen deprivation therapy.

Taneja SS, Smith MR, Dalton JT, Raghow S, Barnette G, Steiner M, Veverka KA.

New York University School of Medicine, New York, NY 10016, USA.

Deregulation of the estrogen axis in humans prompts a series of tissue-specific events. In the breast and prostate, alterations in estrogen signalling lead to genotypic and phenotypic molecular alterations that result in dysplastic cellular appearance, deregulated cell growth and carcinoma. In bone, decreased estrogen leads to increased osteoclastogenesis and bone resorption, decreased bone mineral density and a significant fracture risk. Toremifene is a selective estrogen receptor modulator that exerts pharmacological activity in the breast, bone and prostate. An intense interest in developing this agent for prostate cancer chemoprevention is based on the reduction of premalignant and malignant prostate lesions in a transgenic model of prostate cancer. Biological and clinical activity was demonstrated in Phase II trials by the prevention of progression to prostate cancer in men with high-grade prostate intraepithelial neoplasia and through suppression of bone turnover biomarkers and increased bone mineral density in men on androgen deprivation therapy for prostate cancer.

Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 16503765 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Long term effects of Toremifene on lipids and bone density:

Breast Cancer Res Treat. 2005 Oct;93(3):277-87.

Bone mineral density and lipid changes during 5 years of follow-up in a study of prevention of breast cancer with toremifene in healthy, high-risk pre- and post-menopausal women.

Erkkola R, Mattila L, Powles T, Heikkinen J, Toivola B, Korhonen P, Mustonen M.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Turku University Central Hospital, Turku, Finland.

A double-blind, randomised, placebo-controlled pilot study was initiated to evaluate the feasibility of chemoprevention with toremifene 60 mg/day in healthy women at high risk for breast cancer. Enrolment in the study was terminated earlier than planned because of slow patient accrual, although 13% of patients continued for 5 years. The revised efficacy outcomes were change in bone mineral density (BMD) from baseline at four skeletal sites, plus effects on serum lipids. In premenopausal women there was a trend for sustained increase in BMD during toremifene therapy after year 1 in lumbar spine. In postmenopausal women, toremifene had little or no effect on BMD trends. Levels of total and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol were largely unchanged from baseline in premenopausal women treated with toremifene but were often slightly lower than in the placebo group during follow-up. Total and LDL cholesterol levels declined slightly from baseline in the postmenopausal women and were, at several points during the first 3 years, significantly lower than in the corresponding placebo group (p < 0.01). We conclude that: (a) assessment of toremifene 60 mg/day in chemoprevention will require further clinical trials; (b) toremifene 60 mg/day has no substantive negative effects on BMD in pre- or postmenopausal women and may exert a minor favourable influence (in particular, the effects of toremifene 60 mg/day on BMD in premenopausal women may make the drug an attractive alternative to tamoxifen 20 mg/day for that patient subset); (c) lipid effects of toremifene 60 mg/day are, at minimum, neutral and may be modestly favourable for reducing cardiovascular risk.

Publication Types:
* Multicenter Study
* Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 16172794 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lipids

"Selective Estrogen-Receptor Modulators ? Mechanisms of Action and Application to Clinical Practice"

B. Lawrence Riggs, M.D., and Lynn C. Hartmann, M.D.

Coronary artery disease accounts for one third of all deaths in postmenopausal women.68 Both estrogen and SERM therapy induce a beneficial serum lipid profile, although the patterns of these changes differ (Table 5). The main serum lipid changes with oral estrogen are increases in high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and triglycerides and decreases in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. tamoxifen, toremifene, and raloxifene also decrease LDL cholesterol but, unlike estrogen, do not increase triglycerides. Toremifene, unlike other SERMs, increases HDL cholesterol. Treatment with estrogen or SERMs changes the blood-coagulation indexes in the direction of enhanced clotting, and estrogen, but not raloxifene, increases indexes of inflammation (Table 5)...

Table 5. Comparative Effects of Oral Hormone-Replacement Therapy and SERMs on Serum Lipids, Indexes of Inflammation, and Blood Coagulation.

Antiatherogenic effects of adjuvant antiestrogens: a randomized trial comparing the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on plasma lipid levels in postmenopausal women with node-positive breast cancer
T Saarto, C Blomqvist, C Ehnholm, MR Taskinen and I Elomaa
Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland.

PURPOSE: To evaluate whether a novel antiestrogen, toremifene, has similar antiatherogenic effects as tamoxifen. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty-nine postmenopausal patients with node-positive breast cancer were randomized in a trial that compared the effects of tamoxifen and toremifene on serum lipoproteins. tamoxifen was given at 20 mg and toremifene at 60 mg orally per day for 3 years. Serum concentrations of apolipoprotein (apo) A-I, A-II, and B, and lipoprotein(a) [Lp(a)], cholesterol, triglyceride, high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and estradiol were measured before and after 12 months of antiestrogen therapy. RESULTS: Both antiestrogens significantly reduced serum total and LDL cholesterol and apo B levels. However, the response of HDL cholesterol to treatments was clearly different between the groups. Toremifene increased the HDL level by 14%, whereas tamoxifen decreased it by 5% (P = .001). As a consequence, both cholesterol-to-HDL and LDL-to-HDL ratios decreased more in the toremifene than tamoxifen group (P = .008 and P = .03, respectively). Toremifene also increased the apo A-I level (P = .00007) and apo A-I-to- A-II ratio (P = .018). Both tamoxifen and toremifene decreased the Lp(a) concentration significantly (change, 34% v 41%). CONCLUSION: These results provide positive evidence that toremifene has antiatherogenic properties with potency to improve all lipoproteins that are associated with increased coronary heart disease (CHD) risk.

 

[DR.D]

Beats the dogcrap out of Nolva, huh? Once you try torm one time, you never go back!

 

[edwards]

great info here