Getting rid of gyno: What worked for me

RenegadeRows

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How I got rid of my gyno
Going to make this short and sweet.

Lots of guys on here wondering what the best protocol is for reducing, or getting rid of existing gyno. I've tried lots of things, and I'm going to outline a plan that is relatively safe, side effect free that got rid of my gyno, that I had for many years from puberty and PH.

I had REAL gyno. Lumps, tissue, pain, ugliness, puffiness. It was a mess.


The plan

ED - Everyday
EOD - Every other day
-

Week 1: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 50mg ATD ED
Week 2: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 25mg ATD ED
Week 3: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 25mg ATD ED
Week 4: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 25mg ATD EOD
Week 5: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 25mg ATD EOD
Week 6: 60mg Raloxifene ED + 25mg ATD EOD
Week 7: 60mg Raloxifene ED
Week 8: 60mg Raloxifene ED
Week 9: 30mg Raloxifene ED
Week 10: 30mg Raloxifene ED

-


Raloxifene
Studies have shown that Raloxifene has a better success rate of reducing the size of gynecomastia in men than Nolvadex(1). It is also less hepatoxic (harmful to the liver) than Nolvadex. 60mg is a standard dosage, which is tapered down to a half dose of 30mg for the last 2 weeks of the cycle in order to avoid rebound. Ralox also takes about 3 weeks to start working, therefore the full 10 weeks is nessecary.

ATD
At 25mg, ATD inhibits conversion of testosterone to estrogen without eliminating estrogen completely. The reason we keep this dosage low is to avoid side effects related to low estrogen, such as sore joints, lethargy and low libido. With an extreme tapering down of every other day dosing and Raloxifene to boot, there will be little to no rebound with this protocol.
Backup Plan: Epistane
I have seen extremely good results with low dosed Epistane (10-20mg). This product has shown extremely good anti estrogenic and gynecomastia reducing properties. However, it is a steroid, and there is a possibility that the gyno could return or worsen during post cycle therapy. Personally, I don't recommend any more than 20mg when your goal is to reduce gyno, but that is an argumentive point. I experienced growth at 30mg, but everyone responds differently. Just remember Epistane is an anabolic agent.



(1)
Raloxifene and Tamoxifen Treatment of Pubertal Gynecomastia

Lawrence and colleagues report their experience with the use of either raloxifene or tamoxifen, both antiestrogenic agents, in reducing breast size in adolescent boys with benign gynecomastia. The data presented are from a retrospective review of 37 patients: 12 received reassurance alone, 10 received raloxifene (60 mg once daily for 3 to 9 months), and 15 received tamoxifen (10 to 20 mg twice dialy for 3 to 9 months). Baseline studies including LH, FSH, testosterone, and estradiol levels were normal in all subjects and there were no significant differences among the groups with regard to age at initiation of treatment, Tanner stage, BMI or baseline hormone levels. Significant reductions in breast diameter were measured with both raloxifene (2.5cm, 66% reduction) and tamoxifen (2.1cm, 46% reduction). However, a 50% or greater reduction was seen more often in the raloxifene treated group (86% vs 41%). No side effects of the medications were reported.
 

Synicus

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Helpful info, thx.

Was your run w/ Ralox after your AAS run and Post Cycle Therapy, ie you ran Ralox and ATD as a standalone cycle?

I have seen extremely good results with low dosed Epistane (10-20mg)
.

Yes, I've thought of this too just coming off Havoc cycle, not big fan of havoc/epistane but i see its use for gyno at low dose, 10-20mg.
 
RenegadeRows

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Helpful info, thx.

Was your run w/ Ralox after your anabolic steroids run and Post Cycle Therapy, ie you ran Ralox and ATD as a standalone cycle?
It was a standalone cycle!
 

tattoopierced1

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never tried ralox, but i had great success with Letro.
 
Stoni9

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pics pre/post by any chance? ive read the threads, but havent seen much photographic proof.
 
Movin_weight

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also noticed this with havoc... i have a very mild case of gyno thats not visible to the eye but at 20mg of havoc i noticed reduction but then when i bumped to 40mg it returned almost immediately

if mine was more severe i'd probly try this but the stuff i'v read on receptor sensitivity when running high doses of SERMS and AI's makes me nervous... when a person takes a SERM the body in return produces more estrogen receptors (so i'v read) in order to try and maintain homeostasis... so it basically becomes a foot race against the SERM and estrogen and who makes it to the receptor first, then when you come off the SERM your body is left with a higher level of receptors which can lead to rebound estrogen binding... i'm sure theres more to this and tapering can offset this but it still makes me curious
 

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what is atd?





How I got rid of my gyno
Going to make this short and sweet.

Lots of guys on here wondering what the best protocol is for reducing, or getting rid of existing gyno. I've tried lots of things, and I'm going to outline a plan that is relatively safe, side effect free that got rid of my gyno, that I had for many years from puberty and PH.

I had REAL gyno. Lumps, tissue, pain, ugliness, puffiness. It was a mess.


The plan


Backup Plan: Epistane
I have seen extremely good results with low dosed Epistane (10-20mg). This product has shown extremely good anti estrogenic and gynecomastia reducing properties. However, it is a steroid, and there is a possibility that the gyno could return or worsen during post cycle therapy. Personally, I don't recommend any more than 20mg when your goal is to reduce gyno, but that is an argumentive point. I experienced growth at 30mg, but everyone responds differently. Just remember Epistane is an anabolic agent.



(1)
Raloxifene and Tamoxifen Treatment of Pubertal Gynecomastia

Lawrence and colleagues report their experience with the use of either raloxifene or tamoxifen, both antiestrogenic agents, in reducing breast size in adolescent boys with benign gynecomastia. The data presented are from a retrospective review of 37 patients: 12 received reassurance alone, 10 received raloxifene (60 mg once daily for 3 to 9 months), and 15 received tamoxifen (10 to 20 mg twice dialy for 3 to 9 months). Baseline studies including LH, FSH, testosterone, and estradiol levels were normal in all subjects and there were no significant differences among the groups with regard to age at initiation of treatment, Tanner stage, BMI or baseline hormone levels. Significant reductions in breast diameter were measured with both raloxifene (2.5cm, 66% reduction) and tamoxifen (2.1cm, 46% reduction). However, a 50% or greater reduction was seen more often in the raloxifene treated group (86% vs 41%). No side effects of the medications were reported.
 
bioman

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I agree 100%.

I've used a similar protocol with either nolva or toremifene and ATD with great success. This latest bout of gyno...tiny and not visible, but I'd like to keep it that way...has been more stubborn so I have gone on Epi. Epi does seem to be working and I will keep the doses low based on the recommendations here.
 
RenegadeRows

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also noticed this with havoc... i have a very mild case of gyno thats not visible to the eye but at 20mg of havoc i noticed reduction but then when i bumped to 40mg it returned almost immediately

if mine was more severe i'd probly try this but the stuff i'v read on receptor sensitivity when running high doses of SERMS and AI's makes me nervous... when a person takes a SERM the body in return produces more estrogen receptors (so i'v read) in order to try and maintain homeostasis... so it basically becomes a foot race against the SERM and estrogen and who makes it to the receptor first, then when you come off the SERM your body is left with a higher level of receptors which can lead to rebound estrogen binding... i'm sure theres more to this and tapering can offset this but it still makes me curious
That's interesting about the havoc. I noticed the same with Epi from 20mg > 30mg, not a big difference but it returned like you said.

Unfortunately it's true about the SERMs creating more receptors. Good thing I only kept the Ralox dosages at 60mg.

But the thing is, once you reduce the size of the gyno with this protocol, and your body returns to normal (homeostasis), the gyno will not grow, even though there are more estrogen receptors present. Remember, gyno only grows when your hormone levels are wacky (and more estrogen is present.) Considering most of us got gyno from either puberty or steroids, we don't have to worry about gyno returning unless you a) do more steroids or b) have an endocrine problem.
 
RenegadeRows

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I agree 100%.

I've used a similar protocol with either nolva or toremifene and ATD with great success. This latest bout of gyno...tiny and not visible, but I'd like to keep it that way...has been more stubborn so I have gone on Epi. Epi does seem to be working and I will keep the doses low based on the recommendations here.
I've also experienced good results from Nolva and Tore but found Ralox to be the best at reducing and also the least sides. Let us know how the Epi goes bio, it's really amazing what you'll see happen. 20mg was the sweet spot for me!
 
Movin_weight

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That's interesting about the havoc. I noticed the same with Epi from 20mg > 30mg, not a big difference but it returned like you said.

Unfortunately it's true about the SERMs creating more receptors. Good thing I only kept the Ralox dosages at 60mg.

But the thing is, once you reduce the size of the gyno with this protocol, and your body returns to normal (homeostasis), the gyno will not grow, even though there are more estrogen receptors present. Remember, gyno only grows when your hormone levels are wacky (and more estrogen is present.) Considering most of us got gyno from either puberty or steroids, we don't have to worry about gyno returning unless you a) do more steroids or b) have an endocrine problem.

Yea that makes sense... and that would explain why people become increasingly prone to gyno, when they continue to run cycles

thanks for sharing your method with us bro and maybe down the road i'll give this a shot
 
celc5

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I've also experienced good results from Nolva and Tore but found Ralox to be the best at reducing and also the least sides. Let us know how the Epi goes bio, it's really amazing what you'll see happen. 20mg was the sweet spot for me!
Would you mind sharing a comparison of your experiences with Nolva, Ralox, and Tore? I'd say everyone would be interested in:

1) What were side effects of each (you mentioned ralox to be the least)?

2) Which addressed testicular atrophy most effectively

3) How did each help (or not help) with your gyno issue?

4) Also, have you had any rebound since finishing the protocol you have outlined above?

Nice post, thanks for sharing your experience :cheers:
 
bioman

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Haven't used Ralox yet but Tor is far superior to Nolva on all fronts, IMO. Few to no sides, immediate testicular hypertrophy, non-toxic...but expensive.
 
RenegadeRows

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Would you mind sharing a comparison of your experiences with Nolva, Ralox, and Tore? I'd say everyone would be interested in:

1) What were side effects of each (you mentioned ralox to be the least)?

2) Which addressed testicular atrophy most effectively

3) How did each help (or not help) with your gyno issue?

4) Also, have you had any rebound since finishing the protocol you have outlined above?

Nice post, thanks for sharing your experience :cheers:
1. Side effects, mostly noted in Nolvadex and not the other two, were slightly lower libido. I also became slightly emotional like a girl ... but could be attributed to estro in PCT.

2. Most effective with bringing back the boys were Toremefine. I never used Raloxifene in PCT, only standalone.

3. They all helped my gyno, but Ralox seemed to do the best job.

4. I haven't noticed any rebound, but I have noticed a small amount of rebound after each Epistane (however, it was considerably smaller after each cycle, and stayed that way.)

I beleive rebound from anything is unavoidable but when you do an extreme taper (including half doses and EOD dosing) it will be considerably less.

RR
 
bioman

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Rebound does seem a lot less noticable on Epi. It's by far the best oral I've ever run.
 
DR.D

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Great thread RR!

Good to see you back and kicking knowledge to the fellas here. :)
 
celc5

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Thanks for answering my questions with specific answers beyond expectations! This entire thread is going into my catalog of valuable information for future reference!
 
GotTest

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also noticed this with havoc... i have a very mild case of gyno thats not visible to the eye but at 20mg of havoc i noticed reduction but then when i bumped to 40mg it returned almost immediately

if mine was more severe i'd probly try this but the stuff i'v read on receptor sensitivity when running high doses of SERMS and AI's makes me nervous... when a person takes a SERM the body in return produces more estrogen receptors (so i'v read) in order to try and maintain homeostasis... so it basically becomes a foot race against the SERM and estrogen and who makes it to the receptor first, then when you come off the SERM your body is left with a higher level of receptors which can lead to rebound estrogen binding... i'm sure theres more to this and tapering can offset this but it still makes me curious
SERM's do increase est receptors but only at the "good" sites (liver,bone) , NOT the "bad" site (breast tissue).
Hence the name: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators

They are antagonists in some tissue and agonists in others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_estrogen_receptor_modulator
 
jomi822

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if you are really serious about trying to get rid of your gyno....try to find a pre-made topical DHT cream. they exist.

if not, obtain DHT powder....
 
Movin_weight

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SERM's do increase est receptors but only at the "good" sites (liver,bone) , NOT the "bad" site (breast tissue).
Hence the name: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators

They are antagonists in some tissue and agonists in others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_estrogen_receptor_modulator
this is not true

the term selective corresponds the drugs action on specific estrogen receptors in different sites of the body (agonist or antagonist)

estrogen receptors are increased by the body's response to the drug... hence when receptors in breast tissue are (blocked) so to speak, the body reacts by adding new receptors to counteract the drug and try to maintain homeostasis
 
GotTest

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this is not true

the term selective corresponds the drugs action on specific estrogen receptors in different sites of the body (agonist or antagonist)

estrogen receptors are increased by the body's response to the drug... hence when receptors in breast tissue are (blocked) so to speak, the body reacts by adding new receptors to counteract the drug and try to maintain homeostasis
So you mean more of a "rebound" after taking SERM?
In other words, your saying if SERM is antagonist in breast tissue, once you end SERM you will have more receptor sites, therefore inducing gyno when estogen, estrodiol is normalized?

I haven't heard of any SERM "rebound" myself, but there again I only frequent a couple forums, and recently AM. Throw up some links for me if you don't mind...

Maybe there is more to the "rebound" of gyno than just the SERM itself.
I'll have to do a search on this one (Research data that is).
 
celc5

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Maybe there is more to the "rebound" of gyno than just the SERM itself.
I'll have to do a search on this one (Research data that is).
From browsing the logs, I've seen several factors that lead to an undesirable rebound:
1) previous incidence of gyno
2) Incomplete or sloppy post cycle therapy plan
3) Choosing a ph/ps that has a reputation for these effects
4) Including an unsuspecting supplement in PCT that enduces an undersirable effect (in effect either producing what "looks" like a rebound effect OR bringing the rebound on stronger than it would have been on its own).
5) Not tapering a non-steroidal AI

I've never experienced a rebound, so take my OBSERVATIONS for what they're worth. I've never seen a case of rebound where the problem can be traced back to the serm, although Movin's explanation is technically correct as far as i can tell.
 
Movin_weight

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Rebound is not really a problem with a SERM because of the long half life of the drug so the body has time to adjust to the slowly decreasing amount of receptor blocking in the body

however the use as SERM and it's ability to cause the body to increase estrogen receptors can cause a person to become more sensitive to the effects of elevated estrogen

so say a person has had pre-existing gyno issues in the past and runs a heavy serm protocol such as listed above... after discontinuing the SERM the person most likely won't experience any issues with rebound... but in the future if they were to run another cycle or experience a surge in estrogen for any reason, they will be more sensitive and succeptable to gyno issues from even smaller levels of increased estrogen as compared to before the SERM protocol

I am not a scientist but these are analogies based on what i have read and experienced myself
 
fritzer

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i just want to throw it out there that Pherplex and Superdrol gave me puffy nipples and gyno, but this was not an issue to do with estrogen control. They act like progestins and it was definitly prolactin gyno. 4 days of vitamin B6 at 750mg/day and it was already 75% less puffy and the lump dissappearing. Now i am on epithin-E 30mg a day and dosing B6 and it is almost completly gone... so i always suggest B6 with things like Deca, Tren, SD, PP or any other compound that can give prolactin issues... take SD and your nips start lactating haha take B6
 
celc5

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Rebound is not really a problem with a SERM because of the long half life of the drug so the body has time to adjust to the slowly decreasing amount of receptor blocking in the body

however the use as SERM and it's ability to cause the body to increase estrogen receptors can cause a person to become more sensitive to the effects of elevated estrogen

so say a person has had pre-existing gyno issues in the past and runs a heavy serm protocol such as listed above... after discontinuing the SERM the person most likely won't experience any issues with rebound... but in the future if they were to run another cycle or experience a surge in estrogen for any reason, they will be more sensitive and succeptable to gyno issues from even smaller levels of increased estrogen as compared to before the SERM protocol

I am not a scientist but these are analogies based on what i have read and experienced myself
good stuff, so this might be a reason to NOT use a serm after a really light cycle. I've seen people say they don't use serms but have never seen any explanation as to why. :cheers: for a good post!

Just to be sure I understand your logic, you're thinking that using a serm may make a person more susceptable to other gyno enducing factors in the future :think: correct or no?
 

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Do SERMs create more estrogen receptors permanently, or just while you're using them?
 
Movin_weight

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good stuff, so this might be a reason to NOT use a serm after a really light cycle. I've seen people say they don't use serms but have never seen any explanation as to why. :cheers: for a good post!

Just to be sure I understand your logic, you're thinking that using a serm may make a person more susceptable to other gyno enducing factors in the future :think: correct or no?
yes, and i'm sure it is person specific regarding the degree at which this happens, but if your are gyno prone i would be alert
 
Movin_weight

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Do SERMs create more estrogen receptors permanently, or just while you're using them?
i'm not exactly sure if it is "permanent" but does last after use is discontinued

I remember reading a study where after only one dose of tamox the level of E2 and progestine receptors in a women increased like 8-fold and was still at an increased level after 96 hours

i can only assume that the effect is much higher in females than males since they have a uterus where the drug acts as an agonist, but still

as for the specific question i am not sure how long the effect lasts
 

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Renegade or Bio, what correlation would you make between dosages of Ralox, that RR presented here and Torem or Tamox, for the same purpose?
 
RenegadeRows

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Renegade or Bio, what correlation would you make between dosages of Ralox, that RR presented here and Torem or Tamox, for the same purpose?
60mg of Ralox is equal to 20mg of Tamox, or 60mg Toremefine. (aka 1mL)

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, I've found Ralox to be the best in a standalone environment (not PCT)

RR
 
celc5

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Just to add a little, I'm 2 weeks into post cycle therapy with standard Torem protocol. My chest has NEVER looked tighter while most of my other body comp is staying unchanged. Which leads me to believe that the SELECTIVE in Serm is no joke.

I used formestane on cycle and it definately made a visible difference to my chest, but not as much as torem. I would imagine that the combination of serm/formestane TOGETHER would be just killer for the desired effect of this thread.

Just to note, I don't have gyno but more like ugly man boobies at around 13% bf. They're shrinking as we speak :head:

Maybe something like epi with formestane bridging the cycle AND post cycle therapy with ralox as the serm could be the do-it-yourself man-boob reducer that we're looking for? Any thoughts?
 
Movin_weight

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formestane always does wonders for my chest... within a week i lose a decent amount of water and fat and it definately tightens my chest up... unfortunately it usually returns to normal when i discontinue use

i'v heard great things about torem and it is def on my list for my next pct
 
bioman

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Torm can usually be dosed at close to the same dose as Ralox for gyno control. Running it higher is better for PCT but I see no reason to go that high for a longer term gyno protocol.



Update on my gyno protocol:

After about 4 weeks of dosing ATD with Epi the lump had subsided to essentially nothing but then started to return. I then dropped the ATD in favor or Letro dosed at 0.10mg EOD for 3 more weeks.

Of note was that dosing Epi at 40 mg worsened the condition whereas dosing at 20 helped but did not obliderate the gyno completely though it seemed to keep it in stasis. With the addition of Letro, the gyno would shrink the morning after a dose then return after dosing Epi which was also dosed EOD alternate to the Letro.

Day 1: Epi 20 mg
Day 2: Letro .10 mg
Day 3: Epi 20 mg
Day 4:Letro .10mg
...and so on.

So the mornings of day 2 and 4 there would be a reduction of gyno symptoms..no tenderness and shrinkage of the lump. Mornings of days 1 and 3 would be the opposite..tenderness and a tiny increase in size.

Looks like either the Epi should be lowered in dosage or dropped using this sort of protocol.


2 days ago I dropped both the Epi and the Letro and began a transdermal with 6 grams of 6-OXO and 5 grams B-Triol as a form of light PCT. A serm seems unnecessary as shutdown does not seem to be a factor...but I am keeping a serm on hand just in case.

This far recovery has been almost instanteous..testes are up in size, libido is getting higher..BUT the gyno is there at the moment though barely detectable. Obviously I need to run this part of the protocol longer to see if the 6-OXO will be enough to combat the gyno. If not, I'll add letro back in if necessary although I really need to repair my lipid ratioes.
 
GotTest

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Just to add a little, I'm 2 weeks into post cycle therapy with standard Torem protocol. My chest has NEVER looked tighter while most of my other body comp is staying unchanged. Which leads me to believe that the SELECTIVE in Serm is no joke.
I always wondered about the effects of Torem when it came to gyno/breast area. I've heard plenty of good things when it came to "dropping the nuts" but never much in the way of gyno.

Maybe something like epi with formestane bridging the cycle AND post cycle therapy with ralox as the serm could be the do-it-yourself man-boob reducer that we're looking for? Any thoughts?
I am second week on Epi 40mg/day and only feel a decrease in sensitivity, but not much in reduction of size.
I going to run Ralox during PCT to see if this would knock it out.
Thing is... I have a bottle of Torem and Ralox, so the way your talking about your chest on Torem I my not rule it out.

Maybe Torem PCT, wait a couple months then Ralox standalone.
 
RenegadeRows

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I always wondered about the effects of Torem when it came to gyno/breast area. I've heard plenty of good things when it came to "dropping the nuts" but never much in the way of gyno.


I am second week on Epi 40mg/day and only feel a decrease in sensitivity, but not much in reduction of size.
I going to run Ralox during post cycle therapy to see if this would knock it out.
Thing is... I have a bottle of Torem and Ralox, so the way your talking about your chest on Torem I my not rule it out.

Maybe Torem PCT, wait a couple months then Ralox standalone.
Like I said, the Ralox takes about 2-3 weeks to fully kick in, so if you decide to run it in PCT you have to do high doses, like 180mg for the first few days.

I recommend Torem, as it is very good at restoring HPTA.
Maybe a Torem at first / Ralox cruise would be a good idea.
 
RenegadeRows

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Torm can usually be dosed at close to the same dose as Ralox for gyno control. Running it higher is better for post cycle therapy but I see no reason to go that high for a longer term gyno protocol.



Update on my gyno protocol:

After about 4 weeks of dosing ATD with Epi the lump had subsided to essentially nothing but then started to return. I then dropped the ATD in favor or Letro dosed at 0.10mg EOD for 3 more weeks.

Of note was that dosing Epi at 40 mg worsened the condition whereas dosing at 20 helped but did not obliderate the gyno completely though it seemed to keep it in stasis. With the addition of Letro, the gyno would shrink the morning after a dose then return after dosing Epi which was also dosed EOD alternate to the Letro.

Day 1: Epi 20 mg
Day 2: Letro .10 mg
Day 3: Epi 20 mg
Day 4:Letro .10mg
...and so on.

So the mornings of day 2 and 4 there would be a reduction of gyno symptoms..no tenderness and shrinkage of the lump. Mornings of days 1 and 3 would be the opposite..tenderness and a tiny increase in size.

Looks like either the Epi should be lowered in dosage or dropped using this sort of protocol.


2 days ago I dropped both the Epi and the Letro and began a transdermal with 6 grams of 6-OXO and 5 grams B-Triol as a form of light PCT. A serm seems unnecessary as shutdown does not seem to be a factor...but I am keeping a serm on hand just in case.

This far recovery has been almost instanteous..testes are up in size, libido is getting higher..BUT the gyno is there at the moment though barely detectable. Obviously I need to run this part of the protocol longer to see if the 6-OXO will be enough to combat the gyno. If not, I'll add letro back in if necessary although I really need to repair my lipid ratioes.
I'll be interested to hear your feedback with this. Epi is definately touchy with the gyno when you get higher than 20mg. It could be better or worse
 
GotTest

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I recommend Torem, as it is very good at restoring HPTA.
Maybe a Torem at first / Ralox cruise would be a good idea.
Any dosing recommendations utilizing both Torem and Ralox after Epi 40mg/day for 3 weeks?
 
RenegadeRows

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Any dosing recommendations utilizing both Torem and Ralox after Epi 40mg/day for 3 weeks?
I would honestly stick to just Toremefine, and use the Raloxifene at a later period for standalone. BUT, if you do want to use both, I'd do:


Day 1-3: 180mg Tore
Day 4-7: 120mg Tore
Day 7-14: 90mg Tore
Week 3: 60mg Tore
Week 4: 30mg Tore + 120mg Ralox
Week 5: 60mg Ralox
Week 6: 60mg Ralox

And cruise out at 60mg ralox until you have a little left, then do 30mg doses.

Your test should be back to normal by week 3-4 thanks to the Torem, then the high dosing of Ralox in Week 4 will get it into your system quickly. Then cruising out on Ralox should eliminate any gyno you have left. Going down to 30mg for the last 1-2 weeks will help stave off rebound.

Torem alone would be sufficient for post cycle therapy, that's why I say save the Ralox

RR
 
celc5

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Would there be any toxicity issues with running serms for that long?

Also, any thoughts on claims that running serms actually increases number of overall estrogen receptors (upregulation I'm guessing)... which would defeat the purpose the proposed plan. Good discussion :thumbsup:
 
RenegadeRows

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Would there be any toxicity issues with running serms for that long?

Also, any thoughts on claims that running serms actually increases number of overall estrogen receptors (upregulation I'm guessing)... which would defeat the purpose the proposed plan. Good discussion :thumbsup:
As far as toxicity issues go, nothing to worry about. Now I'm not a doctor, but those are standard doses. Women run these drugs for breast cancer for years at a time. The only one I would hesitate to run for longer than a few weeks is nolvadex/tamoxifen becauses of supposed toxicity issues. But Ralox is supposedly much improved on this issue.

From what I understand,

I do beleive SERMs increase # of estrogen receptors, but this is not an issue as I stated previously. As long as your body has nothing wrong with its endocrine system, the balance of estrogen and test will not induce growth once you stop the SERMs.

In other words, gyno was caused by a fluctuation of estrogen and test via steroids or puberty. Once we shrink it with a protocol such as this, as long as you don't induce growth via steroids again there should be no issues with your gyno growing.
 
Movin_weight

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:goodpost:

this ties in perfectly with what i was talking about above... as long as hormone balance remains stable, even an increase in receptors or receptor sensitivity shouldn't be an issue... but estrogen surges caused via steroids or anything for that matter could be grounds for re-appearance
 
bioman

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Yeah, the epi at 20 mg was hit and miss. Someone my size probably needs more like 5 or 10 mg taken before bed.


But I wanted to run a cycle too so I got greedy for gains and ran it higher. lol

Feeling GREAT on this transdermal 6oxo/Btriol. Getting leaner already. Stacking with pGH-T, bulk Powerfull and bulk Nettle Root. 500 mcg of Melatonin at night for sleep and more estrogen control.
 
GotTest

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I do beleive SERMs increase # of estrogen receptors, but this is not an issue as I stated previously. As long as your body has nothing wrong with its endocrine system, the balance of estrogen and test will not induce growth once you stop the SERMs.

In other words, gyno was caused by a fluctuation of estrogen and test via steroids or puberty. Once we shrink it with a protocol such as this, as long as you don't induce growth via steroids again there should be no issues with your gyno growing.
So you guys are saying when you have gyno and get rid of it with a solid SERM protocol.
Forget doing another cycle or you'll get gyno again????
 
Movin_weight

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depends on the cycle, dose, steroid ect... but there is a good chance, this is why you hear people talking about how there gyno prone and asking whether products will aggrevated gyno ect..

not all PH/Steroids will cause gyno flare ups but if you plan on running somethin aromatizable or something that is going to shut you down hard and cause a severe fluctuation in hormone levels, be prepared to be back where you started
 
RenegadeRows

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depends on the cycle, dose, steroid ect... but there is a good chance, this is why you hear people talking about how there gyno prone and asking whether products will aggrevated gyno ect..

not all PH/Steroids will cause gyno flare ups but if you plan on running somethin aromatizable or something that is going to shut you down hard and cause a severe fluctuation in hormone levels, be prepared to be back where you started
Yup. Or worse for that matter.

Playing with your hormones = gyno ....

if your prone to it. No matter which way you cut it, this includes AIs, natural test boosters, and more!
 
celc5

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Once we shrink it with a protocol such as this, as long as you don't induce growth via steroids again there should be no issues with your gyno growing.
RR, this is awesome advice. In terms of what GotTest is asking, it just requires a bit more careful planning when choosing your compound with added PREVENTION built into your plan, no?

So you guys are saying when you have gyno and get rid of it with a solid SERM protocol.
Forget doing another cycle or you'll get gyno again????
For example, I ran Halo with formestane and had no concern with gyno in this stack. With some nifty planning, you can even bridge formestane into post cycle therapy as your ai. This used to be done with ATD at a low dose on cycle but I think more people use 6brom and form (or research chems) because they are libido friendly.

this ties in perfectly with what i was talking about above... as long as hormone balance remains stable, even an increase in receptors or receptor sensitivity shouldn't be an issue... but estrogen surges caused via steroids or anything for that matter could be grounds for re-appearance
yup, your idea was making me think. Use the serm for prolonged periods to reduce gyno in the present but increase the potential for future gyno in the mean time :think:
 
GotTest

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depends on the cycle, dose, steroid ect... but there is a good chance, this is why you hear people talking about how there gyno prone and asking whether products will aggrevated gyno ect..

not all PH/Steroids will cause gyno flare ups but if you plan on running somethin aromatizable or something that is going to shut you down hard and cause a severe fluctuation in hormone levels, be prepared to be back where you started
I see what you're saying here Movin'. I'm still having a hard time grasping the increase in est receptor sites in an area that it is antagonist to. (I'm a chemist NOT an MD):D
I'm going to throw this to a couple Doc's to get there response/explanation and I'll be sure to throw it over here.

I'm gyno prone myself. First cycle Dbol back in the 80's with no gyno. Pushed the envelope on the second cycle with double dosing and WHAM, gyno left nip.(No PCT back then.)
Then the 90's with PH's... 19Nor 5diol great size, but off cycle WHAM gyno right nip.
Year 2007- Now I'm on Epi and seeing a decrease(not elimination) in gyno and sensitivity with GREAT gains. Going into PCT soon with above mentioned SERMS to choose from.

This cycle was completely based on gyno response with PH used. Epi seemed to have the best results as far as gyno goes, so I jumped on this train. Now to avoid the gyno during and after PCT....
 
RenegadeRows

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This cycle was completely based on gyno response with PH used. Epi seemed to have the best results as far as gyno goes, so I jumped on this train. Now to avoid the gyno during and after PCT....
After Epi my gyno still came back A LITTLE, but much better than it was. I recommend a longer PCT (4-6 weeks) with a slow tapering.
 

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