[RenegadeRows]

Originally Posted by PumpingIron

Renegade or Bio, what correlation would you make between dosages of Ralox, that RR presented here and Torem or Tamox, for the same purpose?

60mg of Ralox is equal to 20mg of Tamox, or 60mg Toremefine. (aka 1mL)

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, I've found Ralox to be the best in a standalone environment (not PCT)

RR

[celc5]

Just to add a little, I'm 2 weeks into post cycle therapy with standard Torem protocol. My chest has NEVER looked tighter while most of my other body comp is staying unchanged. Which leads me to believe that the SELECTIVE in Serm is no joke.

I used formestane on cycle and it definately made a visible difference to my chest, but not as much as torem. I would imagine that the combination of serm/formestane TOGETHER would be just killer for the desired effect of this thread.

Just to note, I don't have gyno but more like ugly man boobies at around 13% bf. They're shrinking as we speak

Maybe something like epi with formestane bridging the cycle AND post cycle therapy with ralox as the serm could be the do-it-yourself man-boob reducer that we're looking for? Any thoughts?

[Movin_weight]

formestane always does wonders for my chest... within a week i lose a decent amount of water and fat and it definately tightens my chest up... unfortunately it usually returns to normal when i discontinue use

i'v heard great things about torem and it is def on my list for my next pct

[bioman]

Torm can usually be dosed at close to the same dose as Ralox for gyno control. Running it higher is better for PCT but I see no reason to go that high for a longer term gyno protocol.



Update on my gyno protocol:

After about 4 weeks of dosing ATD with Epi the lump had subsided to essentially nothing but then started to return. I then dropped the ATD in favor or Letro dosed at 0.10mg EOD for 3 more weeks.

Of note was that dosing Epi at 40 mg worsened the condition whereas dosing at 20 helped but did not obliderate the gyno completely though it seemed to keep it in stasis. With the addition of Letro, the gyno would shrink the morning after a dose then return after dosing Epi which was also dosed EOD alternate to the Letro.

Day 1: Epi 20 mg
Day 2: Letro .10 mg
Day 3: Epi 20 mg
Day 4:Letro .10mg
...and so on.

So the mornings of day 2 and 4 there would be a reduction of gyno symptoms..no tenderness and shrinkage of the lump. Mornings of days 1 and 3 would be the opposite..tenderness and a tiny increase in size.

Looks like either the Epi should be lowered in dosage or dropped using this sort of protocol.


2 days ago I dropped both the Epi and the Letro and began a transdermal with 6 grams of 6-OXO and 5 grams B-Triol as a form of light PCT. A serm seems unnecessary as shutdown does not seem to be a factor...but I am keeping a serm on hand just in case.

This far recovery has been almost instanteous..testes are up in size, libido is getting higher..BUT the gyno is there at the moment though barely detectable. Obviously I need to run this part of the protocol longer to see if the 6-OXO will be enough to combat the gyno. If not, I'll add letro back in if necessary although I really need to repair my lipid ratioes.

[ugab37]

very helpful info. Nice job RR!

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by celc5

Just to add a little, I'm 2 weeks into post cycle therapy with standard Torem protocol. My chest has NEVER looked tighter while most of my other body comp is staying unchanged. Which leads me to believe that the SELECTIVE in Serm is no joke.

I always wondered about the effects of Torem when it came to gyno/breast area. I've heard plenty of good things when it came to "dropping the nuts" but never much in the way of gyno.

Originally Posted by celc5

Maybe something like epi with formestane bridging the cycle AND post cycle therapy with ralox as the serm could be the do-it-yourself man-boob reducer that we're looking for? Any thoughts?

I am second week on Epi 40mg/day and only feel a decrease in sensitivity, but not much in reduction of size.
I going to run Ralox during PCT to see if this would knock it out.
Thing is... I have a bottle of Torem and Ralox, so the way your talking about your chest on Torem I my not rule it out.

Maybe Torem PCT, wait a couple months then Ralox standalone.

[RenegadeRows]

Originally Posted by GotTest

I always wondered about the effects of Torem when it came to gyno/breast area. I've heard plenty of good things when it came to "dropping the nuts" but never much in the way of gyno.


I am second week on Epi 40mg/day and only feel a decrease in sensitivity, but not much in reduction of size.
I going to run Ralox during post cycle therapy to see if this would knock it out.
Thing is... I have a bottle of Torem and Ralox, so the way your talking about your chest on Torem I my not rule it out.

Maybe Torem PCT, wait a couple months then Ralox standalone.

Like I said, the Ralox takes about 2-3 weeks to fully kick in, so if you decide to run it in PCT you have to do high doses, like 180mg for the first few days.

I recommend Torem, as it is very good at restoring HPTA.
Maybe a Torem at first / Ralox cruise would be a good idea.

[RenegadeRows]

Originally Posted by bioman

Torm can usually be dosed at close to the same dose as Ralox for gyno control. Running it higher is better for post cycle therapy but I see no reason to go that high for a longer term gyno protocol.



Update on my gyno protocol:

After about 4 weeks of dosing ATD with Epi the lump had subsided to essentially nothing but then started to return. I then dropped the ATD in favor or Letro dosed at 0.10mg EOD for 3 more weeks.

Of note was that dosing Epi at 40 mg worsened the condition whereas dosing at 20 helped but did not obliderate the gyno completely though it seemed to keep it in stasis. With the addition of Letro, the gyno would shrink the morning after a dose then return after dosing Epi which was also dosed EOD alternate to the Letro.

Day 1: Epi 20 mg
Day 2: Letro .10 mg
Day 3: Epi 20 mg
Day 4:Letro .10mg
...and so on.

So the mornings of day 2 and 4 there would be a reduction of gyno symptoms..no tenderness and shrinkage of the lump. Mornings of days 1 and 3 would be the opposite..tenderness and a tiny increase in size.

Looks like either the Epi should be lowered in dosage or dropped using this sort of protocol.


2 days ago I dropped both the Epi and the Letro and began a transdermal with 6 grams of 6-OXO and 5 grams B-Triol as a form of light PCT. A serm seems unnecessary as shutdown does not seem to be a factor...but I am keeping a serm on hand just in case.

This far recovery has been almost instanteous..testes are up in size, libido is getting higher..BUT the gyno is there at the moment though barely detectable. Obviously I need to run this part of the protocol longer to see if the 6-OXO will be enough to combat the gyno. If not, I'll add letro back in if necessary although I really need to repair my lipid ratioes.

I'll be interested to hear your feedback with this. Epi is definately touchy with the gyno when you get higher than 20mg. It could be better or worse

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by RenegadeRows

I recommend Torem, as it is very good at restoring HPTA.
Maybe a Torem at first / Ralox cruise would be a good idea.

Any dosing recommendations utilizing both Torem and Ralox after Epi 40mg/day for 3 weeks?

[RenegadeRows]

Originally Posted by GotTest

Any dosing recommendations utilizing both Torem and Ralox after Epi 40mg/day for 3 weeks?

I would honestly stick to just Toremefine, and use the Raloxifene at a later period for standalone. BUT, if you do want to use both, I'd do:


Day 1-3: 180mg Tore
Day 4-7: 120mg Tore
Day 7-14: 90mg Tore
Week 3: 60mg Tore
Week 4: 30mg Tore + 120mg Ralox
Week 5: 60mg Ralox
Week 6: 60mg Ralox

And cruise out at 60mg ralox until you have a little left, then do 30mg doses.

Your test should be back to normal by week 3-4 thanks to the Torem, then the high dosing of Ralox in Week 4 will get it into your system quickly. Then cruising out on Ralox should eliminate any gyno you have left. Going down to 30mg for the last 1-2 weeks will help stave off rebound.

Torem alone would be sufficient for post cycle therapy, that's why I say save the Ralox

RR

[celc5]

Would there be any toxicity issues with running serms for that long?

Also, any thoughts on claims that running serms actually increases number of overall estrogen receptors (upregulation I'm guessing)... which would defeat the purpose the proposed plan. Good discussion

[RenegadeRows]

Originally Posted by celc5

Would there be any toxicity issues with running serms for that long?

Also, any thoughts on claims that running serms actually increases number of overall estrogen receptors (upregulation I'm guessing)... which would defeat the purpose the proposed plan. Good discussion

As far as toxicity issues go, nothing to worry about. Now I'm not a doctor, but those are standard doses. Women run these drugs for breast cancer for years at a time. The only one I would hesitate to run for longer than a few weeks is nolvadex/tamoxifen becauses of supposed toxicity issues. But Ralox is supposedly much improved on this issue.

From what I understand,

I do beleive SERMs increase # of estrogen receptors, but this is not an issue as I stated previously. As long as your body has nothing wrong with its endocrine system, the balance of estrogen and test will not induce growth once you stop the SERMs.

In other words, gyno was caused by a fluctuation of estrogen and test via steroids or puberty. Once we shrink it with a protocol such as this, as long as you don't induce growth via steroids again there should be no issues with your gyno growing.

[Movin_weight]

this ties in perfectly with what i was talking about above... as long as hormone balance remains stable, even an increase in receptors or receptor sensitivity shouldn't be an issue... but estrogen surges caused via steroids or anything for that matter could be grounds for re-appearance

[bioman]

Yeah, the epi at 20 mg was hit and miss. Someone my size probably needs more like 5 or 10 mg taken before bed.


But I wanted to run a cycle too so I got greedy for gains and ran it higher. lol

Feeling GREAT on this transdermal 6oxo/Btriol. Getting leaner already. Stacking with pGH-T, bulk Powerfull and bulk Nettle Root. 500 mcg of Melatonin at night for sleep and more estrogen control.