[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by thesinner

It can be. Also keep in mind that most non-aromatizing steroids are 5-alpha-reduced, which (in most cases) can make them a little anti-estrogenic, as we see with drostanolone, mesterolone, epithiostanol, epithiomesterolone, and just straight DHT.

Also, I think you've got your aromatizing/non-aromatizing steroids mixed up. 1,4AD will aromatize and Madol (not having a 4-ene) will not.

Hmmm ... Yes MADOL is a progestin so that was a bad example. In the Bold guide on bb.com VT says it does not aromatize but in the store the description says otherwise.

"This naturally occurring compound is a direct precursor to Boldenone, a derivative of testosterone. 1,4AD BOLD is an extremely effective aid for increasing receptor activation and initiating the muscle tissue rebuilding process that yields solid gains in lean muscle mass. The 1,4AD BOLD compound has a very high level of bioavailability with a majority of the chemical passing through the liver without being deactivated by 17-ketosteroid. The potential conversion rate to estrogen is favorable for increasing tissue growth and repair, but minimal enough that very little noted side effects occur such as increased body fat, gynecomastia, or water retention.

Thanks for clearing that up. So after a let's say Havoc cycle, would your Estrogen levels be higher or lower? or does it depend on the person taking it and what their sensitivity to the AI properties of the compound are? I found that when I took Methyl-e I really didn't lean out that much but gained a good bit of BF around my midsection. Could have been the enormous amount of calories (4000) I was consuming as well. My last cycle I was around 3000-3500/day and pretty much maintained BF while adding mass. That was a Bold/P-Plex/Trena cycle for 8 weeks.

[thesinner]

yes, 1,4 steroids aromatize quite well. That's actually the reason ATD and Exemstane are such potent AI's. The 1-ene lowers the selectivity with other enzymes, such as 5AR; therefore, the probability of binding to aromatase would therefore increase.

Epistane would definitely be user dependant. It's touted to reduce gyno; however, there's some people who have gotten "gyno" from it. (Although I'm convinced there's an epidemic of gyno paranoia with new steroid users)

[Force of Green]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I wouldn't trust a claim of a designer steroid to reduce gyno.

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I wouldn't trust a claim of a designer steroid to reduce gyno.

Werd!

[comacho]

Originally Posted by thesinner

You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?

hi Bob,

why would you not making any more gains? is the body reducing ARs?

not all people cycle to get the most out of it, some people stay on years, because although you are not making gains compared to the beginning of the cycle you are still making more gains than being not on.....sorry if that sounds confusing but what im saying is if i was on for 1g of test for 2 years, the gains ive made after 1 year is probalby more than what i would have done naturally without 1g of extra test. meaning you are still making gains.

because it sounded like you are saying once your natural test stops your gains will stop....eh maybe maybe not, there are many different chemicals out there with different activity potential. Plus i think your natty test 'slows' to almost to zero pretty fast, faster than what people think. well i guess thats dosage and chemical dependent too.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by comacho

hi Bob,

why would you not making any more gains? is the body reducing ARs?

not all people cycle to get the most out of it, some people stay on years, because although you are not making gains compared to the beginning of the cycle you are still making more gains than being not on.....sorry if that sounds confusing but what im saying is if i was on for 1g of test for 2 years, the gains ive made after 1 year is probalby more than what i would have done naturally without 1g of extra test. meaning you are still making gains.

because it sounded like you are saying once your natural test stops your gains will stop....eh maybe maybe not, there are many different chemicals out there with different activity potential. Plus i think your natty test 'slows' to almost to zero pretty fast, faster than what people think. well i guess thats dosage and chemical dependent too.

Your body compensates with SHBG and will render a lot of testosterone inactive.
I knew a guy who was on test e for almost a couple years without cycling it and eventually his body stopped responding to it... It was at the point where he could inject 1000mg of test prop and still get nothing.... Go he started taking Growth Hormone to give his body a rest from the roids.

[Shakka1975]

how should lean extreme be dosed in pct? do i take it alongside with pcs or wait and how should it be dosed.

[dmangiarelli]

Originally Posted by Shakka1975

how should lean extreme be dosed in pct? do i take it alongside with pcs or wait and how should it be dosed.

Add it at the start of week three (day 15) and run 3 caps/day. One upon rising, one at noon and one before bed or after dinner ...

[ManBeast]

Great thread!

MB

[TheNEwBreed]

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

[TerribleTowel]

Originally Posted by TheNEwBreed

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

40 mg per day for the first two weeks and 20 mg a day for the next two weeks

[psychobabble]

Originally Posted by TheNEwBreed

sinner when you talk about SERMS you use the reference to using them in 4 week cycle as 40/40/20/20 call me stupid but are you saying start offf taking 40 for the first 2 weeks then down to 20 the last two?

yup i believe thats wha he meant

[Force of Green]

This is good for Nolva, no doubt.

[delsolrob]

I thin we need to bump this.

any chance we can get this stickied? I think that would solve some of the questions on here.