No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

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  1. Nice ****ing post!


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Shakka1975 View Post
    jesus christ almighty.... this is some confusing crap atleast for me...

    Ok this is for all of us who want to know what OTC pct supps are out and are supposed to "act/work" as what a SERM does. Lets say some1 is on a epistane/havoc cycle? So what "OTC" pct supps should be taken together after a havoc cycle and what would most likely be a correct dose for each? This may put a halt to the otc pct questions.

    I my self will be taking for pct here soon... This was what some1 advised me to take and this is what he took and came out fine but everyone is different.

    Inhibit-e (which is an atd) 2/2/1/1 every other day
    post cycle support 4/4/4/4
    Activate extreme 4/4/4/4

    my havoc cycle is 20/20/30/30
    (2caps for 2 weeks and 3 caps the next 2 weeks...)

    Supporting Supps
    cissus
    cycle support 2 scoops 12hrs apart thru-out the cycle/pct
    Tarine (sp)
    I don't understand why people find it necessary to take so many products for a PCT.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Cub View Post
    I don't understand why people find it necessary to take so many products for a PCT.
    What do you take?

    You dont find it necessary to use a SERM, AI and cortisol blocker?
    (Even though the guy isnt using a SERM for his OTC PCT)

    Im just kind of iffy about using ATD after getting delayed gyno off of PP. So I am going to try transdermal Formestane on my next PCT for Havoc in a few weeks, along with Torem and Retain2.

    Or is that overkill as well?

  4. the estrogen levels are high for two reasons, one is because of the armotization and the other is because of the high test levels your body has to find its eqiulibreum. That is great because it works to our advantage when you finish a cycle of ph or steroids. By using a serm, (toremifene is what I like to use) it only blocks the unwanted estrogen that will cause the gyno and leaves the other estrogen so that it helps your body kick start your own test production because once again your body is trying to find it's equilibreum. It's all outlined at the beginning of this thread. Also, by not using a serm and even if you don't get gyno your body has all this estrogen and NO testosterone to match until your body gets itself straitened out and that will cause you to lose the muscle that you have gained while on your cycle. You should try and follow the directions completely and then make an asessment of how it works for you. I love the results I have gotten w/phs and a serm. I don't think I will use an AI again or if I do it will be at the end of a pcs. Remember when you use something to lower your estrogen and raise your test when you stop your test levels will go down and estrogen levels come up so your body can find it's place again.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ajensen11 View Post
    What do you take?

    You dont find it necessary to use a SERM, AI and cortisol blocker?
    (Even though the guy isnt using a SERM for his OTC PCT)

    Im just kind of iffy about using ATD after getting delayed gyno off of PP. So I am going to try transdermal Formestane on my next PCT for Havoc in a few weeks, along with Torem and Retain2.

    Or is that overkill as well?
    I think the only necessary thing (supplement wise) for PCT is a good SERM. The best cortisol blocker is food. Protein and carbs blunt cortisol.

    Fear is the cause of massive PCT arsenals. If you're so afraid of getting gyno or losing most of your gains after the cycle, the solution is: Don't use steroids.

    A good SERM like toremifene or a trans-res product like Post Cycle Support and a good strategy for diet modification is all that's needed for PCT.
    Freedom means nothing here.
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  6. Well SERM for sure in a PCT, but what about when you come off of it? Your body has increased your test but will estrogen still be higher? Since the test that your body creates will be aromatized into estrogen because of the increased amount of aromatase.

    Also, using an AI by itself increases test, so wouldnt that help jump starting your natural test production along with the SERM?

    People's issue about not using an AI right off the bat in a PCT is that there is no test to aromatize. But there is an increased amount of aromatase, which will act on what little amounts of test get produced.

    Please let me know if I am wrong and confused, cause it feels that way...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    If you're so afraid of getting gyno or losing most of your gains after the cycle, the solution is: Don't use steroids.
    Wow, thanks.

    Maybe I should do that in the rest of life as well.

    F*** trying to solve a problem, I should just stop doing what caused it. My boss will love that one.

  8. by using an AI you keep the estrogen and test levels down, sure you can get some natural testosterone from this but it's not much, again your body is trying to find it's correct levels again with each other, it will find them with the ai but like I said the levels will be low, if you can keep the levels high by letting your body keep the estrogen while using a test booster it becomes a win win situation, pct doesn't have to be bad, I have continued to have good mass gains while on the pct, that speaks much louder than words to me. I am currently at 213 lbs and 16.5 bf and 5'8 in height.
    After this month of pct I will be cutting for fifteen weeks. Like I said before, follow the directions given by someone with experience, learn about and study the pro's and cons of the things you will be taking and document all of your cycle, before, during and after including your diet, sleep habits and everything. Don't do it half ass, unless of course being half ass is all your looking for. I am looking for number one, no one runs a race looking for anything but first place.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by ajensen11 View Post
    Wow, thanks.

    Maybe I should do that in the rest of life as well.

    F*** trying to solve a problem, I should just stop doing what caused it. My boss will love that one.
    The statement was an opinion not directed at you persay, but for certain individuals who have the fear of God put into them about the possibility of gyno.

    And yes, wouldn't it be better to stop the action that causes the problem? Why make a problem just to try and fix it? lol

    Then again, if you want to take the advice on 'how not to get steroid-cessation induced ***** tits' into every aspect of your life, you've got a new religion here.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  10. Ajensen, don't apply a b*tch titties disclaimer to every aspect of your life man... come on.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  11. i understand what yall are saying (Force of Green and Atnartist) but my post was for the people who will not be using a SERM like myself and want to know what otc pct products are out there that are "SUPPOSE" to simulate what a SERM would do even if it isnt in comparison to the SERM. It may stop all the same questions about otc pct's.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Shakka1975 View Post
    i understand what yall are saying (Force of Green and Atnartist) but my post was for the people who will not be using a SERM like myself and want to know what otc pct products are out there that are "SUPPOSE" to simulate what a SERM would do even if it isnt in comparison to the SERM. It may stop all the same questions about otc pct's.
    Post Cycle Support and Stoked (both the same, by Anabolic Innovations) IS A SERM product and it's over the counter. 6-oxo Extreme has a SERM in it as well. Dermacrine Sustain is a SERM too...

    transresveratrol.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  13. Some crazy ba$tards rubbed Dermacrine Sustain on their balls and got GREAT results after a cycle.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  14. lol maybe he though it would make him larger?? hehe

  15. So everyone is saying we want estrogen in PCT, but how much is too much? Is it correct in saying the higher the estrogen the higher your test will become in order to reach equilibrium?

    Does prolactin play apart in anyone's PCT, or on cycle? Since prolactin is fuel to estrogens fire of creating or aggreviating gyno.

    Yeah, I came back to gyno. It's hard to rid your mind of when you always see it, especially when wearing t-shirts(hard nips)

  16. Quote Originally Posted by ajensen11 View Post
    So everyone is saying we want estrogen in PCT, but how much is too much? Is it correct in saying the higher the estrogen the higher your test will become in order to reach equilibrium?

    Does prolactin play apart in anyone's PCT, or on cycle? Since prolactin is fuel to estrogens fire of creating or aggreviating gyno.

    Yeah, I came back to gyno. It's hard to rid your mind of when you always see it, especially when wearing t-shirts(hard nips)
    I can relate. Since a delayed onset incident with Superdrol, I've had some crap behind my nips that I can't get rid of. If I'm really pumped or on a huge dose of a stim, my skin will tighten up enough to make it unnoticable... As far as wearing shirts that are tight fit... I don't see it happening right now until I get the surgery.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  17. me reading the gyno crap is now making feel like im having weird sensations in my nipples.. Kinda like when my kids or wife gets the stomach virus i automatically start a nausea feeling even though im not sick.. I guess its a mental thing..

  18. Fear of gyno is exactly why I chose Toremifene for my pct. It just stands to reason that if the over the counter stuff worked just as well it wouldn't be over the counter. Just my personal opinion. Of course I researched all of the different products that were most mentioned. I know the one I chose was sopposedly the most expensive yet it did not seem to have the side effects or as harsh sides as some of the others. Also, quite a few of the products claim to reverse gyno and everything scientific I have read says that it cannot be reversed except with surgery. Funny that chicks that have huge boobs and get ripped lose their tits. Maybe we just need to do some more cutting, it may just be your bulking diet (bad fats, and processed foods).

  19. Torem is great, top notch, next generation stuff.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Not at all. Any steroid (aromatizable or not) will increase your testosterone.
    by what mechanism? I see that on labels sure, but don't understand how or quite believe it. Other than by binding with the ARs so that the test has nowhere to go, but that seems like it would be minimal effect. its not like 1-t is going to convert to testosterone.

  21. the sinner ..great post, learnd alot as i didn't knew aything about pct cycle
  22. SERMS Cortisol


    Okay. So why would someone run Clomid (SERM) with Torem (SERM) for PCT?

    Is it okay for a PCT to include Torem (SERM) + a cortisol control like Lean Xtreme, Reduce, Retain, Restore? (are they all the same for cortisol control?)

    Would Formastane be used in PCT in place or in addition to the above? Or should it just be used on cycle with Test e?

    Thanks for any expert advice

  23. im not fully convinced that exogenous androgen will make your endo androgen go up, that does not make any sense, i need to see some studies to belive that one.

    i could see estro being elevated from non aroma aas but not in all cases, have you tried halo or winny before? did you get bloated off those too? if you did, you got faked.

    good example will be anadrol vs halo or winny,,,big difference although chemically they shouldnt aromatize.

    also, when people say ball size during PCT and T level aren't related is BS, your testes make T, thats its main job, its like saying oh i have high T although i just castrated myself.

    your nuts shrink (dose dependent) on exo andro because it has stopped making your own T. IF exo made your endo T go up, then why do we need hcg, SERM, and other chemicals for PCT, all we would need is AI.

    shutdown usually occurs after 2 weeks of use

  24. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    by what mechanism? I see that on labels sure, but don't understand how or quite believe it. Other than by binding with the ARs so that the test has nowhere to go, but that seems like it would be minimal effect. its not like 1-t is going to convert to testosterone.
    Accumulation. And the test has somewhere to go, it's called another AR, the 5-alpha-reductase, aromatase, or 17-dehydroxylase to name a few.

    Activation of AR's is mediated by the serum concentration of active androgens. The rate law of any reaction is mediated via probability, so the more androgens in a EasyEJL, the more likely one of them finds an AR. By taking steroids, you are attempting to increase serum androgens in attempt to increase activation of AR's.....in attempt to build muscle.

    Sure, 1-T might have a higher anabolic ratio than normal testosterone, but we're really comparing apples to oranges. It's still gotta make it's way to the AR to do it's thang. In the meantime, I don't know about you, but I'm all for my natural testosterone, DHT, and Estrogens to go about activating AR's and ER's and making me happy.

  25. hmmm I need to read more about that. somehow it just seems counterintuitive that natural test would go up at all while you are on an exogenous androgen. I'd rather the natural testosterone do its thing too, unfortunately i'm kind of light in that area. 20 years of being overweight, eating wrong, drinking too much alchohol and not exercising does that to you, beyond just what time does. I'm pondering going with 2-3 bottles of primal male.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    hmmm I need to read more about that. somehow it just seems counterintuitive that natural test would go up at all while you are on an exogenous androgen. I'd rather the natural testosterone do its thing too, unfortunately i'm kind of light in that area. 20 years of being overweight, eating wrong, drinking too much alchohol and not exercising does that to you, beyond just what time does. I'm pondering going with 2-3 bottles of primal male.
    I'm with you on this one bro!

    Bob, how does endogenous test rise when you introduce exogenous test? If I'm not mistaken introducing exogenous test causes the body to shutdown its own production through the negative feedback loop. Test is perceived to be high due to exogenous test binding to AR's and free test becoming extremely high.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    I'm with you on this one bro!

    Bob, how does endogenous test rise when you introduce exogenous test? If I'm not mistaken introducing exogenous test causes the body to shutdown its own production through the negative feedback loop. Test is perceived to be high due to exogenous test binding to AR's and free test becoming extremely high.
    You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

    I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

    Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

    Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?

  28. Great thread!
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowders’ opinion as a whole.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    You are actually right on the money and don't realize it. I don't think I said endogenous testosterone rises, but rather, it keeps coming, and is now coupled with exogeneous testosterone.

    I think one thing to understand that production *slows* as the cycle continues. It does not stop like a car at a red light.

    Stop thinking linearly everyone!!!!!

    Androgen + AR -> desired reaction is a second order reaction, which means it functions via a logistic curve; therefore, test suppression functions approaching asymptote (asymptote of zero, not really surprising, is it?). Probably another reason why we focus on half-lives of steroids (experimentally determined summation of consumption rates of the various metabolic pathways expressed in a logarithmic parameter). In theory, you never stop producing testosterone; however, continuously produce less and less and less as the cycle continues, which eventually rounds down to zero. At this point (or thereabouts), you're body has become tolerant to the steroid, and you're not going to make any noticeable gains. Ever wonder why you cycle them?
    That is all great! What about the difference with aromatizing (desoxymethyltestosterone for example) and non-aromatizing (1,4AD Bold 200) compounds and how they affect estrogen levels? If (exogenous ) test is perceived to be high, even a non aromatizing compound would cause free T levels (due to the steroid binding to the AR's and not T) to be high so wouldn't aromatization still be a concern? The body would produce more estrogen since it thinks T levels are high?

    I am going out on a limb here as I don't fully understand this so forgive my ignorant line of questioning

  30. It can be. Also keep in mind that most non-aromatizing steroids are 5-alpha-reduced, which (in most cases) can make them a little anti-estrogenic, as we see with drostanolone, mesterolone, epithiostanol, epithiomesterolone, and just straight DHT.

    Also, I think you've got your aromatizing/non-aromatizing steroids mixed up. 1,4AD will aromatize and Madol (not having a 4-ene) will not.

    It's all good, buddy. The fact that this kinda stuff happens is an often overlooked concept, that even I have a tendency to make.

    Just remember. AR's want lovin' and they don't care where they get it from!! As long as there's a shred of test still coursing your veins, it's gonna bind to the nearest receptor or enzyme it can find.
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