No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
- 12-03-2007, 08:36 PM
- 12-03-2007, 11:33 PM
on page 1 i think you said you want to keep estrogen level high post cycle?
do you not like AI then?
i thought once exo T was over, I would 'dry out' high estrogen and lower the cortisol (if i can) to show the body that all the hormones are down. Should kickstart the body faster in developing all those hormones again.
like everyone has discussed previously,,, your T goes up, E and cortisol and other hormones will go up as well to match the activity of androgen. So when it's time to recover, your body sees that the T is low, but if other hormones are still high like estrogen it may take longer to recover than when all the hormones are low. I hope that's not confusing.
Not saying the estrogen should be zero for too long, maybe two weeks of aggressive treatment with AI or anything similar, while doing clomid on top of that maybe better dont you think?
SERM will block high estrogen activity at certain receptors but i think the body will still recognize the high level of estrogen.
- 12-04-2007, 07:43 AM
AI's are not good. There's a few schemes where you can phase from a SERM to a weak AI, which work. But an AI right off the bat is pretty much worthless, IMHO.
Estrogen, believe it or not, is an important hormone for optimal muscle growth. By blocking certain pathways you don't want it to go down, such as ER's in the hypothalamus, will trigger an increase in steroidogenesis, to get your androgen concentrations back up, and allow your steroid hormones to more quickly normalize.
12-04-2007, 09:01 PM
I understand that E is good for growth and GH production etc, no doubt.
but too much is bad and will shut you down further right?
A + B = C
too much substrate and/or product can down regulate the enzyme. High amount of estrogen (even if your Test is low) will tell the brain to shut down your nuts.
if i were to take my gf's birthcontrol pills, my nuts will get shut down because the brain thinks i have too much androgen being aromatized eventhough i dont.
however I can see where you are getting at though. If SERM is in place to block out certain ER's in the brain, it will do its job telling the brain that the estrogen is low and it will produce LH/FSH and etc to start making hormones again therefore AI on top of SERM is redundant. Am I getting that scenario right?
not trying to hijack the thread, if you feel taht i should email you then let me know, trying to figure this out with more details why you think its useless : )
If AI was used to control down some of the estrogen prior then only little amount of clomid will be needed dont you think? just enough to tickle the brain. I think that could cut out clomid sides...
also could you explain further how non aromatizing androgens can cause gyno? is it progesterone related? does the body make estrogen out of other pathway? if so how come people look hard and less bloated on DHT derivatives? when people complain about gyno using such products, does it happen in the end? or during? if happens afterwards, how is that possible when a person's nuts are shrunk producing very little natural test and there are no exogenous estrogen in the body already?
thanks in advance
12-06-2007, 08:42 AM
Im new to the Anabolic game, ive been training for around 3 years and recently have been talking to somebody about Epistane, I asked Bodybuilding.com what I needed in the way of support supplements and they recommended Milk Thistle and IDA Post Cycle Tabs, I was worried that I needed more than this but they didnít want to say because they have to be careful of what they "advise" etc (although they are always very helpful). At the moment I am just taking NO-Xplode, Celltech Hardcore and **** loads of Protein but would like to try Epistane out and move up the ladder some what.
All this information on Anabolics just isnít available to us in the UK and I really find it hard to digest all the names of things and to understand all the cycle routines and what. I was only going to run Epistane for a month and it comparison to some of the above anabolics mentioned I donít know how powerful it is and how seriously I need to take the PCT.
Basically, is Milk Thistle and PC Tabs enough? what brands and products can you recommend for me to take after/during my first cycle with Epistane. Obviously I want to do things right.
Please help the new boy!
12-06-2007, 10:08 AM
12-06-2007, 02:38 PM
12-28-2007, 04:48 AM
[QUOTE=thesinner;820505]Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Reputation: Very popular on this board
Pros: Much less toxic.
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the post cycle therapy Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Can you tell I was bored after work today?
[SIZE="1"]Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only. I don't use or condone the usage of illegally obtained chemicals.
Author's Note: I cannot and will not give out any information on obtaining any of the drugs mentioned in this article. If you send me a private message asking for sources, I will reply with the following link everytime:
What's your outlook on Novadex XT since *cough* gives it the description of
"With its patent-pending formula Dianestrozole, studies show Novedex XT to be significantly better than any of the competition including formestane and 3,6,17-androstenetrione in modulating estrogen levels in the body and increasing natural testosterone levels."
Would this be sufficient for an AI?
My post cycle therapy plan consists (when it starts in another 2 weeks) of:
Tamoxifen Citrate (spelling?)
6-oxo (possibly haven't decided yet though, any other suggestions for an AI, which is y i wanted to know about Novedex XT anyway)
Anti-Cort: still haven't decided
Test booster: was going to be Mass FX (original) but I heard it may skyrocket my estrogen lvls again
What do you think, comments, suggestions? Any info is welcome.
Ps. All this is after is an Epistane cycle but i've done previous ones before and i'm not taking anymore chances with increased est.
02-11-2008, 01:45 PM
02-12-2008, 06:05 PM
Estrogen is important for body function however after a cycle estrogen is way too high and most of it needs blocked/decreased by some means unless you wanted some delayed gyno or shutdown forever. The problem with most AI's is that they contibute to shutdown. Epi/Havoc is classified as an AI. SERM's can be damaging yes - if you use them in too high doses for months or years for that matter. They're MUCH less damaging than PH's themsleves. Otherwise after a strong cycle of Dianabol or Superdrol what constitutes as a proper PCT? Grapes? Red wine?
02-16-2008, 09:31 PM
Has it been shown the estrogen levels will always be high near/at the end of the cycle no matter what compound (even ones that don't aromatise) due to the simple fact that high levels of exogenous "testosterone" were ingested, that's what I took from above....This is proven in nearly every scenario, you're going to have abnormally high E levels even with compounds that don't aromatise?
02-16-2008, 09:38 PM
from ones that dont aromatize what you will get is a lot of aromatase enzyme sitting around since none of it has been getting used with natural test production down. so when test production goes back up, a lot of it will bind at first.
That is a guess, not a fact.
02-17-2008, 03:18 PM
I see that many people use MassFX as a part of their PCT what about stacking MassFX with a cycle of DianEvol?
What test booster should be used during the PCT (being that I am 25 and my test levels are already high)?
02-19-2008, 02:38 AM
I was gonna throw in an anti-cortisol like Reduce XT or Retain for my PCT(go check my Superdrol/Trena Post Cycle therapy thread) but saw that they claim to lean you up. I'm like 6-9% bodyfat and have ltos of trouble gaining weight as it is. I dont need to be taking something that's gonna be making me lose weight. What anti-cort would be best for me?
03-19-2008, 08:00 PM
03-19-2008, 08:11 PM
well, the thing is at first you won't have much testosterone either. so the amount that does aromatize into estrogen at first brings a welcome amount of estrogen with it, since no estrogen at all isn't good either.
there haven't been enough good studies to really determine how exactly that works. I guess thats part of the value of the serm, that regardless of how high the estrogen temporarily swings it won't cause gyno.
03-19-2008, 09:45 PM
Like thesinner states in the first post, "...at the end of the cycle we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels".
If estrogen is already extremely high I would think anymore would be totally unwelcomed, and that we would need all of the test we can create and not have it aromatize.
Maybe this is where people got the ramping AI and SERM down together?
If your theory about the excess amount of aromatase is correct, then wouldnt an AI on cycle help with that?
03-19-2008, 09:58 PM
Not at all. Any steroid (aromatizable or not) will increase your testosterone. It just tends to do so in a suppressive manner, as it slowly tries to take over. Last time I checked, testosterone is an aromatizable androgen; hence, in compliance with Le Chatelier's principle, estrogen and aromatase levels will increase in attempt to accomodate this.
03-20-2008, 12:11 AM
Dont know if this is a stupid question or not?
But is the increase in estrogen due mainly to the increase in aromatase or does the body produce more some how to reach equilibrium? And if it is due to aromatase then there wouldnt be an excess of aromatase lying around since it would have bound to whatever test it could find. (Assuming it binds permanently) Correct, or am I way off?
Just trying to figure out how I got delayed gyno off of PP.
03-20-2008, 02:42 AM
jesus christ almighty.... this is some confusing crap atleast for me...
Ok this is for all of us who want to know what OTC pct supps are out and are supposed to "act/work" as what a SERM does. Lets say some1 is on a epistane/havoc cycle? So what "OTC" pct supps should be taken together after a havoc cycle and what would most likely be a correct dose for each? This may put a halt to the otc pct questions.
I my self will be taking for pct here soon... This was what some1 advised me to take and this is what he took and came out fine but everyone is different.
Inhibit-e (which is an atd) 2/2/1/1 every other day
post cycle support 4/4/4/4
Activate extreme 4/4/4/4
my havoc cycle is 20/20/30/30
(2caps for 2 weeks and 3 caps the next 2 weeks...)
cycle support 2 scoops 12hrs apart thru-out the cycle/pct
03-20-2008, 04:17 AM
03-20-2008, 04:38 AM
03-20-2008, 11:18 AM
You dont find it necessary to use a SERM, AI and cortisol blocker?
(Even though the guy isnt using a SERM for his OTC PCT)
Im just kind of iffy about using ATD after getting delayed gyno off of PP. So I am going to try transdermal Formestane on my next PCT for Havoc in a few weeks, along with Torem and Retain2.
Or is that overkill as well?
03-20-2008, 12:35 PM
the estrogen levels are high for two reasons, one is because of the armotization and the other is because of the high test levels your body has to find its eqiulibreum. That is great because it works to our advantage when you finish a cycle of ph or steroids. By using a serm, (toremifene is what I like to use) it only blocks the unwanted estrogen that will cause the gyno and leaves the other estrogen so that it helps your body kick start your own test production because once again your body is trying to find it's equilibreum. It's all outlined at the beginning of this thread. Also, by not using a serm and even if you don't get gyno your body has all this estrogen and NO testosterone to match until your body gets itself straitened out and that will cause you to lose the muscle that you have gained while on your cycle. You should try and follow the directions completely and then make an asessment of how it works for you. I love the results I have gotten w/phs and a serm. I don't think I will use an AI again or if I do it will be at the end of a pcs. Remember when you use something to lower your estrogen and raise your test when you stop your test levels will go down and estrogen levels come up so your body can find it's place again.
03-20-2008, 12:41 PM
Fear is the cause of massive PCT arsenals. If you're so afraid of getting gyno or losing most of your gains after the cycle, the solution is: Don't use steroids.
A good SERM like toremifene or a trans-res product like Post Cycle Support and a good strategy for diet modification is all that's needed for PCT.
Freedom means nothing here.
03-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Well SERM for sure in a PCT, but what about when you come off of it? Your body has increased your test but will estrogen still be higher? Since the test that your body creates will be aromatized into estrogen because of the increased amount of aromatase.
Also, using an AI by itself increases test, so wouldnt that help jump starting your natural test production along with the SERM?
People's issue about not using an AI right off the bat in a PCT is that there is no test to aromatize. But there is an increased amount of aromatase, which will act on what little amounts of test get produced.
Please let me know if I am wrong and confused, cause it feels that way...
03-20-2008, 12:54 PM
03-20-2008, 01:00 PM
by using an AI you keep the estrogen and test levels down, sure you can get some natural testosterone from this but it's not much, again your body is trying to find it's correct levels again with each other, it will find them with the ai but like I said the levels will be low, if you can keep the levels high by letting your body keep the estrogen while using a test booster it becomes a win win situation, pct doesn't have to be bad, I have continued to have good mass gains while on the pct, that speaks much louder than words to me. I am currently at 213 lbs and 16.5 bf and 5'8 in height.
After this month of pct I will be cutting for fifteen weeks. Like I said before, follow the directions given by someone with experience, learn about and study the pro's and cons of the things you will be taking and document all of your cycle, before, during and after including your diet, sleep habits and everything. Don't do it half ass, unless of course being half ass is all your looking for. I am looking for number one, no one runs a race looking for anything but first place.
03-20-2008, 01:00 PM
And yes, wouldn't it be better to stop the action that causes the problem? Why make a problem just to try and fix it? lol
Then again, if you want to take the advice on 'how not to get steroid-cessation induced ***** tits' into every aspect of your life, you've got a new religion here.
Freedom means nothing here.
03-20-2008, 01:02 PM
Ajensen, don't apply a b*tch titties disclaimer to every aspect of your life man... come on.
Freedom means nothing here.
03-20-2008, 01:03 PM
i understand what yall are saying (Force of Green and Atnartist) but my post was for the people who will not be using a SERM like myself and want to know what otc pct products are out there that are "SUPPOSE" to simulate what a SERM would do even if it isnt in comparison to the SERM. It may stop all the same questions about otc pct's.
03-20-2008, 01:05 PM
03-20-2008, 01:07 PM
Some crazy ba$tards rubbed Dermacrine Sustain on their balls and got GREAT results after a cycle.
Freedom means nothing here.
03-20-2008, 01:12 PM
03-20-2008, 01:23 PM
So everyone is saying we want estrogen in PCT, but how much is too much? Is it correct in saying the higher the estrogen the higher your test will become in order to reach equilibrium?
Does prolactin play apart in anyone's PCT, or on cycle? Since prolactin is fuel to estrogens fire of creating or aggreviating gyno.
Yeah, I came back to gyno. It's hard to rid your mind of when you always see it, especially when wearing t-shirts(hard nips)
03-20-2008, 01:54 PM
Freedom means nothing here.
03-20-2008, 01:59 PM
me reading the gyno crap is now making feel like im having weird sensations in my nipples.. Kinda like when my kids or wife gets the stomach virus i automatically start a nausea feeling even though im not sick.. I guess its a mental thing..
03-20-2008, 04:56 PM
Fear of gyno is exactly why I chose Toremifene for my pct. It just stands to reason that if the over the counter stuff worked just as well it wouldn't be over the counter. Just my personal opinion. Of course I researched all of the different products that were most mentioned. I know the one I chose was sopposedly the most expensive yet it did not seem to have the side effects or as harsh sides as some of the others. Also, quite a few of the products claim to reverse gyno and everything scientific I have read says that it cannot be reversed except with surgery. Funny that chicks that have huge boobs and get ripped lose their tits. Maybe we just need to do some more cutting, it may just be your bulking diet (bad fats, and processed foods).
03-20-2008, 05:04 PM
03-20-2008, 08:28 PM
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