Nothing about HcG Makes Any Sense to Me
- 03-15-2007, 03:08 PM
Nothing about HcG Makes Any Sense to Me
HcG has to be the most mysterious compound in the world -well at least in the bodybuilding world...
First of all, if this thing mimics Lutenizing Hormone, can someone explain tome why people do not mimic the release of LH while administering it? LH is secreted on a daily basis, right; so why not administer a small amount every day? Almost all protocols I have seen advise using large doses intermittently while on AAS -such as 2,000 to 3,000 iu once every other week. Why not use it every day in a dose that would have the same effect as LH and completely prevent shutdown? (by the way, what would such a dose be?)
The argument against such use is desensitization. Well why would the testes be desensitized if the dose used is identical (in terms of potency) to the body's own LH? Is there something special about the molecular structure of HcG that would cause desensitization even though we are using a dose that makes the testes produce only physiological doses of Testosterone?
Also, if desensitization is the main concern, why in the world would people use doses such as 5,000 iu at the end of a cycle. Is this (PCT) the most critical time where it is most important not to desensitize the testes? If even 5,000 iu does not desensitize the testes why not use it everyday in smaller amounts?
- 03-19-2007, 10:44 AM
- 03-20-2007, 11:28 AM
I think Swale's protocol calls for every 3 days.
I would guess the reason you don't do it everyday is because of to many injections.
From what I've read, less is more with hCG.
300 mg's 2x a week is what I keep running in to.
03-20-2007, 11:53 AM
03-20-2007, 01:00 PM
04-06-2007, 11:04 AM
FFIW, I can't say I've seen any UK-based boards still advocating large doses like that, or that dosing schedule, & most advocate 20mg Nolva ED concurrently to avert desentivisation, tho Yank boards may be different. Common practice on most UK boards is to only use it every 5-7 weeks to maintain/rectify ball size on-cycle (if needed) with lowish doses, around 500iu ED for a total duration of around 10 days or so, & almost never for actual post cycle therapy.
Regarding your point about taking it everyday to avoid shutdown.......depends what you mean by "shutdown"....You'd keep your balls in good condition re: size & producing some Test, but it would do nothing to prevent HPTA suppression, so once your cycle is over you'd still be "shutdown".
04-06-2007, 11:44 AM
04-06-2007, 11:55 AM
04-06-2007, 12:00 PM
Compound that really interests me, but is 99.9% mysterious for BB'ing anabolic steroids purposes is HMG.
Seems to a very rare find on the black market, & almost nothing on forums about its use for our particular purposes, which is a shame as I can get it: only problem is I'm shafted as how to use it instead of HCG! I've read a lot of the medical literature, but as medical & BB'ing protocols of HCG are quite different, I'd expect HMG to be the same also.
Don't suppose anyone has any experience/knowledge???
(holding my breath lol)
04-06-2007, 01:09 PM
04-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Well, either that or Human Menopausal Gonadotropins...
Human Menopausal Gonadotrophins
04-06-2007, 01:47 PM
Human Menopausal Gonadotrophin. Similiar to HCG, but mimicks both LH & FSH (with a 1:1 ratio), unlike HCG, which mainly mimicks LH.
It's a fertility med, supposedly very good at raising sperm levels. Sometimes used with HCG, & sometimes alone in fertility treatments.
Not suprised you haven't heard of it: you'll find almost nothing in BB'ing forums about it.
04-06-2007, 01:49 PM
[QUOTE=Sonicology;773191]I think when he says "HMG" he is referring to Heavy Machine Guns, and I agree that their role in Body Building is somewhat unclear although no doubt important![QUOTE]
I suppose you called call 20' arms "heavy machine guns" if you're so inclined Sonic lol
EDIT: FYI Sonic's link doesn't mention it's used for male fertility, but it is.
04-06-2007, 02:15 PM
This article may be of interest to those who haven't already read it, it discusses HcG in some detail:
Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts
My personal feelings on the matter are that the feedback from toremifene users seems to suggest that this compound is so good for recovery that HcG should be unnecessary for even the most suppressive cycles. Take this thread for example;
Toremifene Blood Work
That said it can't hurt to have HcG on hand especially if you are running say a 16 week cycle of deca, tren and test (wouldn't hurt to have some cialis on hand either ).
04-06-2007, 02:16 PM
Here you go, it took two seconds to find. All you have to do is type the search terms into the field:
Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61.Click here to read Links
Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.
Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.
* Menon DK.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. firstname.lastname@example.org
OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.
PMID: 12801577 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
However, 20,000 IU of hcg per week is definetly overkill. That is stupid-high. 300 IU twice per is enough for most guys.
04-06-2007, 02:25 PM
Yes, I have seen that study, & also agree that the HCG doses are overkill, which is why I am also wondering wether the HMG doses are also overkill.
I am also more interested in possibly using it on-cycle as a replacement for HCG, rather than post-cycle, which that study refers to. However, I am not ruling out that use, it would depend on my circumstances at the time regarding my fertility after a long cycle.
04-07-2007, 03:21 PM
hCG induces desensitization based on the high estrogen conversion. If a suicide AI is used simultaneously, this can be avoided. Also, the hMG looks good on paper, but only as a stack on with hCG. Used alone, it's probably not all that, at least from the data I've seen on it.
04-08-2007, 04:15 AM
I'm aware of the stacking use, but don't have a clue as to "how" to stack it fo BB'ing purposes. Any opinions on doses?
As an example for ball-park figures, how to incorporate HMG into what would have been 10 days or so of just HCG 500iu ED every 4-6 weeks on a longer cycle, & in the run upto post cycle therapy?
Any advantages in stacking over just using HCG in that scenario?
04-09-2007, 02:02 AM
04-09-2007, 04:07 AM
Thanks for the input, much obliged, & has made me reconsider whether it's worth the cost of running HMG except just maybe immediately before post cycle therapy. I was hoping that a lower dose, maybe 25-50iu ED would be effective when stacked with 500iu HCG
Without discussing specific prices, for me personally, 150iu HMG = 5000iu HCG "ish" in terms of cost, so running it every 4-6 weeks on cycle for 10-14 days at 75-150iu ED is gonna get pretty expensive!
Again, thanks for the input.
04-09-2007, 06:16 PM
04-09-2007, 09:03 PM
What do you say about the question I had initially posed; i.e. why can we not completely avoid shutdown during a cycle of AAS by using HcG on a regular basis (maybe every day) at an appropriate dose?
04-10-2007, 09:39 PM
04-10-2007, 11:12 PM
I cannot believe the use of HcG during the cycle is not discussed much much more often. Here is a compound that the Doctor says is almost identical to LH yet instead of using it during the cycle, most people wait until the testicles have shrunk all the way down and then do a few huge doses of HcG at the end of the cycle. To me that looks like not such a good idea...
04-10-2007, 11:18 PM
oh and by the way, here is the link that explains why keeping the testes active is the main issue; it is not bringing back the LH after the cycle we should be so concerend with; that will come back anyways very quickly. Wanted to post this as it was requested earlier in this thread
Understanding Post Cylce "T" Recovery | Mind and Muscle
04-30-2007, 01:05 PM
Bumping this again for the Doc...
Again, the question is: Can we completely avoid shutdown by using the right dose and frequency of HcG during a Test cycle (say 600 mg / week) and what would that dose and frequency for HcG be?
Thanks a lot
05-05-2007, 12:37 AM
05-05-2007, 09:21 AM
05-05-2007, 09:52 AM
By the way LakeMountD,
More info on ACIT is here: Page 1
I am speculating that this kind of training may increase T levels naturally and therefore be an excellent addition to PCT. I do not have scientific data on this but the feedback seems to suggest something may be going on...
Thanks to all.
05-05-2007, 09:55 AM
05-05-2007, 10:02 AM
Just remember that this is an experimental approach put together by two enthusiasts -me being one of them. We have nowhere near as much knowledge and experience as Dr D. yourself and many other members of this forum. It is just that we slowly developed something and wanted to share it with fellow athletes. Tehre is nothing for sale on the site and all info is free. All we ask is that people share their observations and experiences so we can further this thing.
ACIT is not something that will work perfectly on the first try. You will need to exeriment a little with different muscle groups and exercises and find where it works best. For me, I couldn't train legs without it. If I use heavy enough weights to gain mass on my legs my knees go bust. Light weight high reps and I don't grow. With ACIT I can use a light weight and still get the same effect as I would from a much heavier weight so it is the ideal solution. Same with shoulders... But then, I do not use ACIT for calves because it never felt right.
05-12-2007, 02:25 PM
05-12-2007, 02:30 PM
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