Nothing about HcG Makes Any Sense to Me

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    Nothing about HcG Makes Any Sense to Me


    HcG has to be the most mysterious compound in the world -well at least in the bodybuilding world...

    First of all, if this thing mimics Lutenizing Hormone, can someone explain tome why people do not mimic the release of LH while administering it? LH is secreted on a daily basis, right; so why not administer a small amount every day? Almost all protocols I have seen advise using large doses intermittently while on AAS -such as 2,000 to 3,000 iu once every other week. Why not use it every day in a dose that would have the same effect as LH and completely prevent shutdown? (by the way, what would such a dose be?)

    The argument against such use is desensitization. Well why would the testes be desensitized if the dose used is identical (in terms of potency) to the body's own LH? Is there something special about the molecular structure of HcG that would cause desensitization even though we are using a dose that makes the testes produce only physiological doses of Testosterone?

    Also, if desensitization is the main concern, why in the world would people use doses such as 5,000 iu at the end of a cycle. Is this (PCT) the most critical time where it is most important not to desensitize the testes? If even 5,000 iu does not desensitize the testes why not use it everyday in smaller amounts?

    Thanks gentlemen....

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    quick bump...
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    I think Swale's protocol calls for every 3 days.

    I would guess the reason you don't do it everyday is because of to many injections.

    From what I've read, less is more with hCG.

    300 mg's 2x a week is what I keep running in to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryingEmo View Post
    I think Swale's protocol calls for every 3 days.

    I would guess the reason you don't do it everyday is because of to many injections.

    From what I've read, less is more with hCG.

    300 mg's 2x a week is what I keep running in to.
    This seems right from personal experience. 300iu's, not mg

    The only thing mysterious about hcg to me is where to source it for a decent price. (not asking for a source)
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier View Post
    This seems right from personal experience. 300iu's, not mg

    The only thing mysterious about hcg to me is where to source it for a decent price. (not asking for a source)
    Thanks for the correction, IU's I mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    HcG has to be the most mysterious compound in the world -well at least in the bodybuilding world.......Almost all protocols I have seen advise using large doses intermittently while on anabolic steroids -such as 2,000 to 3,000 iu once every other week. Why not use it every day in a dose that would have the same effect as LH and completely prevent shutdown? (by the way, what would such a dose be?)
    IME HCG protocols seem to vary from one BB'ing board to another, with often radically different protocols being "flavour of the month", so to speak, & many claiming scientific superiority over others, so I can see where you're coming from mate about it being "mysterious".

    FFIW, I can't say I've seen any UK-based boards still advocating large doses like that, or that dosing schedule, & most advocate 20mg Nolva ED concurrently to avert desentivisation, tho Yank boards may be different. Common practice on most UK boards is to only use it every 5-7 weeks to maintain/rectify ball size on-cycle (if needed) with lowish doses, around 500iu ED for a total duration of around 10 days or so, & almost never for actual post cycle therapy.

    Regarding your point about taking it everyday to avoid shutdown.......depends what you mean by "shutdown"....You'd keep your balls in good condition re: size & producing some Test, but it would do nothing to prevent HPTA suppression, so once your cycle is over you'd still be "shutdown".
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***eddaBoudit View Post
    Regarding your point about taking it everyday to avoid shutdown.......depends what you mean by "shutdown"....You'd keep your balls in good condition re: size & producing some Test, but it would do nothing to prevent HPTA suppression, so once your cycle is over you'd still be "shutdown".
    Thanks a lot for the input. One clarification: HcG will not restore HPTA balance, of course. But if you can keep testicles intact, your PCT is already 90% over before it begins. All the research I read shows that LH secretion returns to normal within days after ceasation of AAS (don't have references off-hand, can try to find if desired). The thing that takes forever to recover is the testicular machine. So if there was some sort of protocol to keep the boys full and funtioning while on cycle, that would make the PCT an almost 100% guaranteed success.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    All the research I read shows that LH secretion returns to normal within days after ceasation of anabolic steroids (don't have references off-hand, can try to find if desired)
    Yeah mate, I'd be quite interested to read them, ta.
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    Compound that really interests me, but is 99.9% mysterious for BB'ing anabolic steroids purposes is HMG.

    Seems to a very rare find on the black market, & almost nothing on forums about its use for our particular purposes, which is a shame as I can get it: only problem is I'm shafted as how to use it instead of HCG! I've read a lot of the medical literature, but as medical & BB'ing protocols of HCG are quite different, I'd expect HMG to be the same also.

    Don't suppose anyone has any experience/knowledge???
    (holding my breath lol)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***eddaBoudit View Post
    Compound that really interests me, but is 99.9% mysterious for BB'ing anabolic steroids purposes is HMG.

    Seems to a very rare find on the black market, & almost nothing on forums about its use for our particular purposes, which is a shame as I can get it: only problem is I'm shafted as how to use it instead of HCG! I've read a lot of the medical literature, but as medical & BB'ing protocols of HCG are quite different, I'd expect HMG to be the same also.

    Don't suppose anyone has any experience/knowledge???
    (holding my breath lol)
    can you explain what it is and what is is supposed to do? never heard of it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    can you explain what it is and what is is supposed to do? never heard of it
    I think when he says "HMG" he is referring to Heavy Machine Guns, and I agree that their role in Body Building is somewhat unclear although no doubt important!

    Well, either that or Human Menopausal Gonadotropins...

    Human Menopausal Gonadotrophins
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    Human Menopausal Gonadotrophin. Similiar to HCG, but mimicks both LH & FSH (with a 1:1 ratio), unlike HCG, which mainly mimicks LH.

    It's a fertility med, supposedly very good at raising sperm levels. Sometimes used with HCG, & sometimes alone in fertility treatments.

    Not suprised you haven't heard of it: you'll find almost nothing in BB'ing forums about it.
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    [QUOTE=Sonicology;773191]I think when he says "HMG" he is referring to Heavy Machine Guns, and I agree that their role in Body Building is somewhat unclear although no doubt important![QUOTE]

    I suppose you called call 20' arms "heavy machine guns" if you're so inclined Sonic lol

    EDIT: FYI Sonic's link doesn't mention it's used for male fertility, but it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***eddaBoudit View Post
    I suppose you called call 20' arms "heavy machine guns" if you're so inclined Sonic lol
    I prefer the term "Pythons" to "Guns", but I guess that's what comes from watching too much wrestling as a kid

    This article may be of interest to those who haven't already read it, it discusses HcG in some detail:

    Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts

    My personal feelings on the matter are that the feedback from toremifene users seems to suggest that this compound is so good for recovery that HcG should be unnecessary for even the most suppressive cycles. Take this thread for example;

    Toremifene Blood Work

    That said it can't hurt to have HcG on hand especially if you are running say a 16 week cycle of deca, tren and test (wouldn't hurt to have some cialis on hand either ).
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    Here you go, it took two seconds to find. All you have to do is type the search terms into the field:

    Entrez PubMed

    Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61.Click here to read Links

    Comment in:
    Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.

    Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.

    * Menon DK.

    Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. drmenon2000@yahoo.co.uk

    OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

    PMID: 12801577 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    However, 20,000 IU of hcg per week is definetly overkill. That is stupid-high. 300 IU twice per is enough for most guys.
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    Yes, I have seen that study, & also agree that the HCG doses are overkill, which is why I am also wondering wether the HMG doses are also overkill.

    I am also more interested in possibly using it on-cycle as a replacement for HCG, rather than post-cycle, which that study refers to. However, I am not ruling out that use, it would depend on my circumstances at the time regarding my fertility after a long cycle.
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    hCG induces desensitization based on the high estrogen conversion. If a suicide AI is used simultaneously, this can be avoided. Also, the hMG looks good on paper, but only as a stack on with hCG. Used alone, it's probably not all that, at least from the data I've seen on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    hMG looks good on paper, but only as a stack on with hCG. Used alone, it's probably not all that, at least from the data I've seen on it.
    Dr. D,

    I'm aware of the stacking use, but don't have a clue as to "how" to stack it fo BB'ing purposes. Any opinions on doses?

    As an example for ball-park figures, how to incorporate HMG into what would have been 10 days or so of just HCG 500iu ED every 4-6 weeks on a longer cycle, & in the run upto post cycle therapy?

    Any advantages in stacking over just using HCG in that scenario?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***eddaBoudit View Post
    Dr. D,

    I'm aware of the stacking use, but don't have a clue as to "how" to stack it fo BB'ing purposes. Any opinions on doses?

    As an example for ball-park figures, how to incorporate HMG into what would have been 10 days or so of just HCG 500iu ED every 4-6 weeks on a longer cycle, & in the run upto post cycle therapy?

    Any advantages in stacking over just using HCG in that scenario?
    Theoretically, about a 1:3-6 ratio should be used and menotropin must be used daily, so ~75iu Pergonal daily and up to 150 maybe for every 500iu of hCG. That's where I would start. 75-150:500, and go from there. hMG is a 1:1 ratio of LH/FSH activity. Remember, a good steroidal AI (6-Br, formestane, Exemestane, ATD, Teslac) should be used concurrently, not much but a little, just to play it safe on the estro-induced desensitization. I have heard it said that it does have the advantage of a more 'natural' effect, like supplementing or augmenting your bodies own production, but that the benefits are not as reliable or profound. Just adds an extra dimension kinda hit or miss though. I've never had the opportunity to try it personally so I'm just not sure though.
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    ^^^^^^
    Thanks for the input, much obliged, & has made me reconsider whether it's worth the cost of running HMG except just maybe immediately before post cycle therapy. I was hoping that a lower dose, maybe 25-50iu ED would be effective when stacked with 500iu HCG

    Without discussing specific prices, for me personally, 150iu HMG = 5000iu HCG "ish" in terms of cost, so running it every 4-6 weeks on cycle for 10-14 days at 75-150iu ED is gonna get pretty expensive!

    Again, thanks for the input.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***eddaBoudit View Post
    ^^^^^^
    Thanks for the input, much obliged, & has made me reconsider whether it's worth the cost of running HMG except just maybe immediately before post cycle therapy. I was hoping that a lower dose, maybe 25-50iu ED would be effective when stacked with 500iu HCG

    Without discussing specific prices, for me personally, 150iu HMG = 5000iu HCG "ish" in terms of cost, so running it every 4-6 weeks on cycle for 10-14 days at 75-150iu ED is gonna get pretty expensive!

    Again, thanks for the input.
    Well try 25 or 37.5 if you can afford that. I would try it solo too the first few days at least to get a "feel" for it without the hCG. The first time I try anything I always do it solo starting low and getting to high doses before I end the trial.
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    Hi Doc,

    What do you say about the question I had initially posed; i.e. why can we not completely avoid shutdown during a cycle of AAS by using HcG on a regular basis (maybe every day) at an appropriate dose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    Hi Doc,

    What do you say about the question I had initially posed; i.e. why can we not completely avoid shutdown during a cycle of anabolic steroids by using HcG on a regular basis (maybe every day) at an appropriate dose?
    Hey Sub! The action of hCG is virtually identical to LH (with a little FSH activity too) but estrogen build up occurs quickly. I think that's probably the biggest factor involved with desensitization and loss of benefit. A steroidal AI is the way to go to keep it's effect fresh, and some IGF also helps to potentiate it's stimulatory action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Hey Sub! The action of hCG is virtually identical to LH (with a little FSH activity too) but estrogen build up occurs quickly. I think that's probably the biggest factor involved with desensitization and loss of benefit. A steroidal AI is the way to go to keep it's effect fresh, and some IGF also helps to potentiate it's stimulatory action.
    Thank you Doctor, as always. That being the case, what would be the most intelligent protocol to minimize, and if possible totally avoid, shutdown during a cycle? How much Hcg, starting on what day of the AAS cycle, continued for how long and what AI (and what dose for the AI)?

    I cannot believe the use of HcG during the cycle is not discussed much much more often. Here is a compound that the Doctor says is almost identical to LH yet instead of using it during the cycle, most people wait until the testicles have shrunk all the way down and then do a few huge doses of HcG at the end of the cycle. To me that looks like not such a good idea...
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    oh and by the way, here is the link that explains why keeping the testes active is the main issue; it is not bringing back the LH after the cycle we should be so concerend with; that will come back anyways very quickly. Wanted to post this as it was requested earlier in this thread

    Understanding Post Cylce "T" Recovery | Mind and Muscle
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    Bumping this again for the Doc...
    Again, the question is: Can we completely avoid shutdown by using the right dose and frequency of HcG during a Test cycle (say 600 mg / week) and what would that dose and frequency for HcG be?

    Thanks a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    Bumping this again for the Doc...
    Again, the question is: Can we completely avoid shutdown by using the right dose and frequency of HcG during a Test cycle (say 600 mg / week) and what would that dose and frequency for HcG be?

    Thanks a lot
    250-500iu twice weekly does a great job usually, add a low dose of AI and your set. BTW, I love the ACI training so far, good stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    250-500iu twice weekly does a great job usually, add a low dose of AI and your set. BTW, I love the ACI training so far, good stuff!
    ACI Training?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    250-500iu twice weekly does a great job usually, add a low dose of AI and your set. BTW, I love the ACI training so far, good stuff!
    Thank you so much Doctor... I was actually also thinking HcG plus low dose AI. However if one were to take PheraPlex (or another similar oralor injectable that doesn't aromatize) for 4 weeks and wants to eliminate any shutdown what then? HcG is great but can you still take the AI? Phera does not aromatize and may be mildly supressive. So your Estradiol levels would already be below baseline without the AI. If you take the AI on top of that, could you not drive them too low? (or am I making some kind of logical mistake here)

    By the way LakeMountD,
    More info on ACIT is here: Page 1
    I am speculating that this kind of training may increase T levels naturally and therefore be an excellent addition to PCT. I do not have scientific data on this but the feedback seems to suggest something may be going on...

    Thanks to all.

    Sub7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    Thank you so much Doctor... I was actually also thinking HcG plus low dose AI. However if one were to take PheraPlex (or another similar oralor injectable that doesn't aromatize) for 4 weeks and wants to eliminate any shutdown what then? HcG is great but can you still take the AI? Phera does not aromatize and may be mildly supressive. So your Estradiol levels would already be below baseline without the AI. If you take the AI on top of that, could you not drive them too low? (or am I making some kind of logical mistake here)

    By the way LakeMountD,
    More info on ACIT is here: Page 1
    I am speculating that this kind of training may increase T levels naturally and therefore be an excellent addition to PCT. I do not have scientific data on this but the feedback seems to suggest something may be going on...

    Thanks to all.

    Sub7

    I'll check it out, and maybe try it, and see how it works out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I'll check it out, and maybe try it, and see how it works out.
    Thanks Bro...

    Just remember that this is an experimental approach put together by two enthusiasts -me being one of them. We have nowhere near as much knowledge and experience as Dr D. yourself and many other members of this forum. It is just that we slowly developed something and wanted to share it with fellow athletes. Tehre is nothing for sale on the site and all info is free. All we ask is that people share their observations and experiences so we can further this thing.

    ACIT is not something that will work perfectly on the first try. You will need to exeriment a little with different muscle groups and exercises and find where it works best. For me, I couldn't train legs without it. If I use heavy enough weights to gain mass on my legs my knees go bust. Light weight high reps and I don't grow. With ACIT I can use a light weight and still get the same effect as I would from a much heavier weight so it is the ideal solution. Same with shoulders... But then, I do not use ACIT for calves because it never felt right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    Thank you so much Doctor... I was actually also thinking HcG plus low dose AI. However if one were to take PheraPlex (or another similar oralor injectable that doesn't aromatize) for 4 weeks and wants to eliminate any shutdown what then? HcG is great but can you still take the AI? Phera does not aromatize and may be mildly supressive. So your Estradiol levels would already be below baseline without the AI. If you take the AI on top of that, could you not drive them too low? (or am I making some kind of logical mistake here) ...

    Sub7
    The hCG will not discourage shutdown except in a superficial way, just testicular inactivity. A PCT will still be needed even if you do an hCG only cycle. PP does not appear to aromatize to a high degree (some of it's metabolites can for sure though) but my advise is the same, about 250iu twice wkly. At that low of a dose, the AI may not be strictly required, but I still advise it just to maintain freshness of effect for minimal doses of gonadotropin. Not much, maybe a cap a night of any conventional suicide AI like ATD, 6-Br, etc..
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    ACI Training?
    Yes, read that link! It works. This guy is a genious. He incorporated an HIT approach into an old school isokinetics methodology, but it's much more than that. On this system, I do half the work and I'm twice as sore the next day, no lie. Very impressive, highly efficient, but it takes some getting used to.
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