Epistane PCT

[3PeteNC]

Does epistane really need the hormonal upregulation part of PCT as it seems to be very similar to the very low suppresive steroid winstrol? it is supposed to be a very powerful anti-e, so if PCT would be needed what would you use and why.

 

[charger71]

depends on how long the cycle is, but nolva plus a product like jungle warfare or mass fx would work well. it seems like if your cycle is short enough you wont really need a pct, but a pct will always help you keep your gains and in this case maybe even keep gaining....

 

[East1600Plus]

I've read it depends on how u run it? *edit* it got all spread out but u get the just of it

What is a typical cycle of Epistane™?

* A typical cycle of Epistane lasts 3-5 weeks and has a range of dosages around 20-40mg. Most people run a cycle similar to 20/30/30/40 or some variation. Others, looking for large mass gains, are running 40mg for 4 weeks or more. It is important to ramp up the dosage in the beginning, even if only for a few days.



* Sample Cycles



o Extreme Mass/Hardcore:



Weeks


Dosages


Product

1


40mg (start at 10mg first day and move up 10mg each day)


Epistane™

2


40mg


Epistane™

3


40mg


Epistane™

4


40mg


Epistane™



5


150mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM



6


100mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM



7


50mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM









o Minimal Shutdown (take only 3X per week, preferably on lifting days):



Weeks


Dosages


Product

1


40mg (start at 10mg first day and move up 10mg each day)


Epistane™

2


40mg


Epistane™

3


40mg


Epistane™

4


40mg


Epistane™



5


150mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM



6


100mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM



7


50mg


X-Lean™

+

Favorite PCT SERM





o No PCT (Dr.D pulse method; take only 3X per week, preferably on lifting days):



Weeks


Dosages


Product

1


40mg (start at 10mg first day and move up 10mg each day)


Epistane™

2


40mg


Epistane™

3


0


Off

4


0


Off

5


40mg (start at 10mg first day and move up 10mg each day)


Epistane™

6


40mg


Epistane™

7-8


0


Off







What is pulse cycling? (posted in the Epistane™ forum at IBE, written by Dr.D)



* Dosing something to intentionally avoid long term sides, such as HTPA suppression and liver damage. With pulsing, the serious, long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect, like acne and mineral retention, are milder that usual. This allows for higher dosages to be used. Basically, if you dosed on an ED basis you would get 100% effect, 100% short term sides and 100% long term sides. If you dose EOD on a pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect, 75% short term sides but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and the wallet too! Of course if you would have gained 10lbs this means you will only gain 6lbs pulsing, but it also means you can do this for 2 or 3 times longer than a normal cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12lbs instead of 10lbs over twice the time frame with less sides and a milder PCT requirement if even needed at all. It's a great long term strategy and good for newer users looking to run fast, clean, cycles for 1 month with no PCT needed later. That's how I perfected it. There are two basic approaches to do it: EOD or 2on/2off depending on your workout schedule. Doses can be high (30-40mg) but take them close together preferably before 6pm (1 dose pre and 1 dose post-w/o instead of spread out like normal) or doses can be lower (10-20mg) if you want to stretch it to 2 or 3 months instead of just 1. Dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4.


***Just for the record i posted this before it got moved to the PCT section...***

 

[3PeteNC]

I've heard that most people running epi right now are opting for nolva for PCT but nolva is a SERM, which you use to combact estrogen, epi is an anti-e, what sense does it make to run a SERM if the estrogen levels are low already?

 

[charger71]

well first you need something to bring your test levels up, nolva helps with that. and epi is an anti estrogen so what would happen when you get off of it? estrogen rebound. again it all depends on how long you run it. but a 4 week cycle would require a serm and a test booster. with that being said, with most ph's you lose SOME muscle and strength during pct.....its looking like thats less likely to happen with epi.

btw ill be running a 4 week epi cycle in 2 months: 20, 30, 40, 40 with nolva+jungle warfare+ax retain for pct.

 

[Deggial]

well first you need something to bring your test levels up, nolva helps with that. and epi is an anti estrogen so what would happen when you get off of it? estrogen rebound. again it all depends on how long you run it. but a 4 week cycle would require a serm and a test booster. with that being said, with most ph's you lose SOME muscle and strength during post cycle therapy.....its looking like thats less likely to happen with epi.

btw ill be running a 4 week epi cycle in 2 months: 20, 30, 40, 40 with nolva+jungle warfare+ax retain for post cycle therapy.

how does you're pct look like then?
dasage? for how long time?

 

[RenegadeRows]

I'm doing nolva 40/20/20/10/10 EOD to focus mainly on gyno.

Epi is an anti-estrogen but it's also an anabolic. Nolva protects receptors while your body rebalances itself out.

Epi is not too hard on shutdown, but a SERM is still neseccary IMO.

You can likely run Nolva at a low dose, reports have said that Epi is an easy PCT.

30/20/10 would work for some too. But I would opt for 40mg the first week, just in case.

RR

 

[STituner23]

After a 4 week cycle of epistane can you use 6 oxo as a pct along with a liver supp. and what would be a good dosage?

 

[Al Shades]

I've heard that most people running epi right now are opting for nolva for post cycle therapy but nolva is a SERM, which you use to combact estrogen, epi is an anti-e, what sense does it make to run a SERM if the estrogen levels are low already?

Est. may be low while you're on cycle, but it could shoot up right after you get off due to suppression of endogenous T production. That's the logic behind taking anti-E's after a cycle, even with compounds that have anti-E properties such as epistane.

 

[neoborn]

Most Importantly!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT

3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

 

[CROWLER]

I am doing an Epistane cycle now and will use POST cycle Support along with Cycle Support.

POST Cycle Support was formulated by The Sinner specifically to be used with Epistane/Havoc.

The guy knows what he is doing and it is a great supplement IMO.


CROWLER

 

[shermlington]

Hi, Im new to this stuff and was wondering, does anyone know the risks involved with epistane on the heart? The liver i think is OK, as people talk about it a lot ut i havnt heard much talk about heart valves. do people think that a 4 week course of epi could lead to a screwed up heart? cos thats not a small thing to brush by when deciding what to do!

 

[HardTrainer]

Hi, Im new to this stuff and was wondering, does anyone know the risks involved with epistane on the heart? The liver i think is OK, as people talk about it a lot ut i havnt heard much talk about heart valves. do people think that a 4 week course of epi could lead to a screwed up heart? cos thats not a small thing to brush by when deciding what to do!

If this study is to be beleived then the effects of steroids on the heart are neither permanent nor cumilative.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Hi, Im new to this stuff and was wondering, does anyone know the risks involved with epistane on the heart? The liver i think is OK, as people talk about it a lot ut i havnt heard much talk about heart valves. do people think that a 4 week course of epi could lead to a screwed up heart? cos thats not a small thing to brush by when deciding what to do!

Run with proper support and a good pct and not over used then it should be safe. There is no real hard data on these new DS.

 

[crazyfool405]

well first you need something to bring your test levels up, nolva helps with that. and epi is an anti estrogen so what would happen when you get off of it? estrogen rebound. again it all depends on how long you run it. but a 4 week cycle would require a serm and a test booster. with that being said, with most ph's you lose SOME muscle and strength during pct.....its looking like thats less likely to happen with epi.

btw ill be running a 4 week epi cycle in 2 months: 20, 30, 40, 40 with nolva+jungle warfare+ax retain for pct.

i dont think you can label it as an anti E , just because the parent compound or the compound it was made from (added a methyl group) is an anit E, doesnt mean it acts like one. the possibility is there, but look at Bold and Dbol. 2 completly different A:A and the same compound with an added methyl.

and also JW , has 6DMT in it which is a weak steroid, not wise to run it in PCT

to really prove to me that its an Anti E id love to see ON cycle Evidence meaning before cycle E2 levels and ON cycle E2 levels. the people reporting epi fixed gyno, could be due to fat loss in the chest area, and it n ot being real gyno anyway just self diagnosed gyno

 

[shermlington]

yeah that article was interesting. but isnt epistane a hormone? or pro hormone so more similar to HGH? well is anabolic innovations cycle support sufficient for a small cycle of epi? say 5 days 10mg, 6 days 20mg and 7 days 30mg?

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

yeah that article was interesting. but isnt epistane a hormone? or pro hormone so more similar to HGH? well is anabolic innovations cycle support sufficient for a small cycle of epi? say 5 days 10mg, 6 days 20mg and 7 days 30mg?

The Cycle Support is enough for your on cycle needs. Epistane is a oral designer steriod it needs no conversion as a PH does and I do not think it is anything like HGH

 

[dg806]

Not close to HGH. Cycle support is fine for an epi cycle. Just be sure you have what you need for pct.

 

[shermlington]

ok thats good to know. Is 6 oxo extreme sufficient alone for a PCT for a small epi cycle?

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

ok thats good to know. Is 6 oxo extreme sufficient alone for a PCT for a small epi cycle?

No it is not enough. Run low dosed Nolva(not nolvadex XT) at 20/20/10/10 and run Post Cycle Support weeks 2-5 of pct 2 caps a.m. and 2 caps p.m.:cheers:

 

[shinivan]

Is h-drol milder than epistane or are they about the same?? I have heard numerous times that hdrol runs are most time ok with regular otc pct but not heard that much about epistane which makes me think epi is a stronger ph/ds.
Any toughts on this??
Thanks

 

[andrew732]

Is h-drol milder than epistane or are they about the same?? I have heard numerous times that hdrol runs are most time ok with regular otc pct but not heard that much about epistane which makes me think epi is a stronger ph/ds.
Any toughts on this??
Thanks

H-drol is a slower acting steroid than Epi, which makes shutdown less harsh, which is why people say you can take otc pct for h-drol, but not for epistane.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

I agree h-drol can have a OTC PCT. I only did Post Cycle Support after a 5 week 75mg run of it and my bloodwork came back good(except cholesterol). It is always nice to have a SERM available in case it is needed.

 

[Joelvandekrol]

I always though Halodrol was harder on the body than Epi?

 

[duke66]

You guys realize this thread is 2 years old?

 

[lmaiuri]

No one comments on the hepatoxic capabilities of Nolva, I suggest everyone check it out. Being an avid fan of Epi I choose not to use Nolva from a research company for two reasons. A. Epi is dry. I am susceptible to gyno and Epi has no effect what so ever. B. You could get bunk Nolva or do damage to your renal system (Kidneys, liver) with this stuff. You have no idea how much of a dose of Nolva is in a Research chemical. Just my .02

 

[DRip]

No one comments on the hepatoxic capabilities of Nolva, I suggest everyone check it out. Being an avid fan of Epi I choose not to use Nolva from a research company for two reasons. A. Epi is dry. I am susceptible to gyno and Epi has no effect what so ever. B. You could get bunk Nolva or do damage to your renal system (Kidneys, liver) with this stuff. You have no idea how much of a dose of Nolva is in a Research chemical. Just my .02

You bring up a valid point i got massively overdosed gear in the past that sent me to the ER and since then have been very cautious about what i put into my body. Nolva is hepatoxic and clomid can lead to permanent vision problems and unless you are able to test the compound you are getting you have no idea the real dosage mg/ml or possible toxins and/or heavy metals in the compound. If you are running a decent cycle of Epi, torem is the best the bet as far as safety IMO as long as you trust where you are getting it from. I have personally used PES Erase and Titanium alongside support supps for Epi PCT with Hcg and Torem on standby in case of rebound. This is just my personal opinion but has worked for me thus far.