No SERM??? Opinions??? Yes or No??? Why???
- 01-12-2007, 05:12 PM
No SERM??? Opinions??? Yes or No??? Why???
JUST CURIOUS HOW PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THIS. Just found this interesting.
PCT products - What you need and why
First of all, let me say that this is not a thread all about PCT, as I think Krzna has created a very good thread to that end. However, as I've done more and more research and heard from, or read articles by, the true "legends" in the game, it seems as though there is a wealth of contradictory information that needs to be sorted out for our board. Let's start with the typical types of PCT drugs:
6-oxo - at based
Rebound XT - atd based
Kilosports Attack - atd based
Novedex XT - atd based
ALRI Ultra Hot - atd based
Arimidex (Anastrozole) - prescription
Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) - prescription
Clomid (clomiphene citrate) - prescription
HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin)
Natural Test Boosters:
7-oxo-dhea (oral or transdermal)
Now as most of you know by now your pct will vary based on a few factors. The first is the length of your cycle. The longer your cycle is, the more suppression that occurs and the longer the body needs to recover. Secondly, the types of aas/ph/ps that you use. Obviously your ergomax cycle won't require the same pct as a cycle of test/tren/winny, which leads to my third point, which is the amount of drugs you are using, both in a mg sense and a one, two, or three ph/aas sense. I will discuss the different pct drugs taking into account all 3 variables above.
What are we trying to do during PCT? Our pct should have 3 goals.
1.) To increase production of Gnrh, and thereby LH FSH, in order to increase test production.
2.) To control the effects of circulating estrogen in the body during a time of zero-low test production.
3.) To return testicular mass in an effort to maximize the increase in LH and Fsh in order to maximize test production.
These three goals mean addressing the two negative feedback loops. In order to do this, we must discuss the products that can help, and how to use them.
6-oxo - 6 oxo is a suicide inhibitor that binds to the enzymes in your body making them inactive. When this occurs the body's natural response is to release Gnrh, which stimulates LH production, and thus an increase in test.
Why is it no longer used as frequently as other products: 6-oxo was the first over the counter suicide inhibitor that actually worked. Unfortunately, it has since been surpassed by stronger ai's that are atd based. In fact, technically we could call 6-oxo "AT" which simply tells you that it does not have everything that "ATD" has to offer us. The other drawback was that 600mg daily were needed for AT based ai's, where as 100mg of ATD will yield better results.
ATD products - ATD is a more advanced ai that also binds to the enzyme rendering it inactive. The difference being two fold. Firstly, atd products are 2.8 times more powerful than at based products. Secondly, atd also addressess the androgen negative feedback loop as well as the estrogen negative feedback loop.
Why isn't it used as much as nolva and clomid: ATD is a rather new product. Science certainly states that it is the best pct product, but nolva and clomid are tried and true, and have been staples of pct protocols for years. Of course there is also the resistance to change, which is why, regardless of sciene, many people will use nolva no matter what.
Nolva and Clomid - Serms are anti-estrogens that are selective in the tissue where the bind. Nolva binds to estrogen receptors in the breast and bone, and clomid in the suprapituitary. Both of these drugs block estrogen receptors which renders circulating estrogen useless. The do not eliminate circulating estrogen, as they do not bind to the enzymes.
Why are they so popular: Serms have been around for many years. They are known, especially clomid, for creating a huge increase in LH, while blocking estrogen. They have often been used in combination to maximize the anti-estrogen effects in as much tissue as possible, while also maximizing the production of LH.
HCG - HCG is an LH mimitek. When injected it is the equivalent of sending huge amounts of lh directly to the testes. When this occurs test production is directly stimulated in the testes. HCG can be used on cycle to maintain testicular mass by sending regular levels of lh to the testes on a bu weekly schedule. It is often continued into pct in order to maintain high lh levels and testicular mass.
Why don't we hear much about it: HCG is by injection only, and it's illegal. While being quite useful, it is not an option for everyone.
So, where do we stand? Well, despite the ******* consensus, nolva and clomid are junk. We should all be using a strong atd dose for the best results, but why? Let me explain...
- 01-12-2007, 05:13 PM
While nolva and clomid are quite popular, they have several drawbacks. Firstly, both nolva and clomid show an affinity for increasing shbg. It should be noted that clomid raises levels of shbg more so than nolva. If you are not familiar with the effects of elevated shbg, let me help. When nolva and clomid increase lh and fsh, they stimulate more production of test in the testes. When shbg increases the test produced in the body tends to be bound test. As we know, this is detrimental to our goals. We want free test, which only occurs when levels of test are elevated, but shbg remains low.
Another drawback is that nolva and clomid are extremely hepatoxic. That makes them less than optimal for use as pct to a methyl compound. Combining a 3-5 week cycle of a methylated aas/ph/ps with a pct of 3-5 weeks of clomid and/or nolva would be very taxing on the liver.
Clomid also has another problem. It should only be used for a week at most. While it is superior at stimulating lh production, it also decreases sensitivity in the pituitary to Gnrh. This means that as use of clomid continues, the pituitary will produce less lh despite the increase in Gnrh.
Nolva's last drawback is due to its very nature. Since it only blocks estrogen receptors, it allows circulating estrogen to continue to exist. If used for pct of an aromatizing drug, levels of circulating estrogen would be greatly increased when nolva usage was discontinued. Again, this is a less than desirable characteristic, as one of our main goals was to limit estrogen induces sides.
So, let's talk atd. Atd offers several advantages over our more traditional pct drugs. Firstly, atd does not show any affinity for increasing shbg. That means that while test levels continue to increase, there will be an abundance of free test. This allows us to better maintain gains, as well as strength during pct.
Secondly, atd has been shown to be equally as productive as nolva and clomid in stimulating the release of gnrh, and therefore, lh and fsh. Since atd binds directly to the enzyme, there is a decrease in actual levels of circulating estrogen, this is akin to nolva and clomid's action of binding to the receptor, except that it will drastically reduce the chance of estrogen rebound.
Thirdly, atd has the ability to address the androgen feedback loop. This means that atd will block the pituitary from receiving the signals that tell it to stop producing gnrh. This occurs when levels of androgens begin to increase greatly. That means that the pituitary will continue to produce more and more gnrh, therefore more and more lh and fsh. That will allow the testes to more test, and do so more rapidly.
As you can see, atd would be the better option for almost all pct protocols. Where nolva supposedly "shines" is in its ability to allow for the production of new estrogen. This allows for improvement in lipid profiles. This is, however, and ill conceived advantage. A steroidal ai, like atd, also allows for production of new estrogen. The only product I know of that does not allow for any increase in circulating estrogen is arimidex.
So, what do we need? Well, ideally any cycle/pct would include hcg. Since it is the only true lh mimitek out there, and when used in the correct doses is unsurpassed in its ability to maintain testicular mass and function. However, since this isn't an option for everyone, we need something else. I would suggest the use of an ATD product in conjunction with a few other products. A sample might look like so:
75mg atd + 50mg dhea + 1.8g fenugreek + 600mg 6-oxo
50mg atd + 75mg dhea + 2.4g fenugreek + 600mg 6-oxo
25mg atd + 100mg dhea + 3g fenugreek + 400mg 6-oxo
25mg atd + 3.6g fenugreek + 200mg 6-oxo
The combination of 6-oxo and an atd allows the atd to focus on the destruction of estrogens. The 6-oxo is then free to aid in the stimulation of lh and fsh. As neither 6-oxo or atd increase sbgh, there is no concern for desensitization of the pituitary. Therefore, and overload of lh stimulation would be beneficial to our goals. If one so desired, they could also add a cortisol control product, most notably 7-oxo-dhea, as well as a natural test booster. Natural test boosters generally increase free test as well, and do not show any affinity for increasig sbgh. Therefore, even more free test.
On a last note, ALR has noted that studies show that atd can be used on cycle, at about 75mg per day in order to maintain healthy testicular mass and function. I am slightly leary of this hypothesis, but I have not tried it on my own. Since atd does address both feedback loops, it is possible that it could be used on cycle to maintain healthy levels of lh production, though I am not sure, and would not want someone on a strong cycle to try this out.
I am not a doctor neither do I give medical advise.I just post what I have researched and obtained. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.Thx
Many thanks to IronPimper for the information
- 01-14-2007, 07:07 PM
No one has an opinion on this.
01-14-2007, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the rundown colindep. This is somewhat over my head but I could pull some useful info from it. Well done.
Where would you, or perhaps how would you classify a product that serves multiple purposes such as ALRI's Restore?
Again, thanks for the time you put into the post.
01-14-2007, 08:04 PM
I've done 3 M1T cycles and 3 Superdrol cycles all 30mg for 6 weeks each. I used Nolva at 40mgs a day for 4 weeks for 2 of the M1T cycles and 2 of the Superdrol cycles. I used Novadex-Xt at 75mgs for 4 weeks for 1 of the M1t and 1 of the Superdrol cycles, I actually found better strength retention with the ATD product (actually gained some),recovery was faster with the Serm on the M1T cycle and the same with the Superdrol cycle. I am finishing another 6 week cycle soon of M1T and am going to use Novadex -Xt to test the difference again to see if I get the same results as a year ago.
01-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Thanks for the input guys.
I've heard alot about ALRI restore but I haven't yet looked into what exactly it is. I think I may try RXT, retain and fenugreek for PCT for my next superdrol cycle, and leave out the nolva.
01-15-2007, 08:25 PM
Cool. You might want to look into Restore. My understanding is it serves the same purpose(s) as RXT and retain. I am taking it now after my 2nd PP cycle and like it. I took Retain after the 1st and liked it too. I used Nolva, Retain, and Fenu and liked it. This time I'm trying Restore, Alpha Drive, and Fenu (no Nolva but have on hand). We will see...Originally Posted by colindep
Anyway, I think you will be fine.
01-17-2007, 07:03 PM
I would like to expand your list.
Fareston (Toremifene) - rx/research chem
Evista (Raloxifene) - rx/research chem
The above SERMs are not widely available as nolva or clomid but have a safer profile and possibly better effectiveness.
Some data mining would uncover a lot of useful information on the above.
b-aet (transdermal) or methylb-aet (Retain)
7oh (lean xtreme) or topical 7oxo-dhea [i have and would use the oral 7oh for post cycle therapy]
Many people liked Retain and found it effective. Few people used lean xtreme in post cycle therapy, but I have and I can tell it does wonders avoiding fat deposits. Both compounds stimulates the thyoid gland to recover, which is something too often neglected.
Note that 7oxo works very poorly taken orally, 7oh should be used instead.
01-17-2007, 10:42 PM
I actually like atd better than clomid or nolva also.
01-17-2007, 10:59 PM
This doesn't make any sense. By the time Nolva P.C.T. is discontinued, both the aromatizing drug and the estrogen that it created will be long out of the system. If test production has recovered fully, estrogen levels should be back at the pre-cycle norm. If natty test hasn't recovered fully, estrogen would actually be lower than normal.Nolva's last drawback is due to its very nature. Since it only blocks estrogen receptors, it allows circulating estrogen to continue to exist. If used for post cycle therapy of an aromatizing drug, levels of circulating estrogen would be greatly increased when nolva usage was discontinued. Again, this is a less than desirable characteristic, as one of our main goals was to limit estrogen induces sides.
Nolva does this as well; that's the whole purpose of using it or any SERM. ATD just does it by lowering circulating estrogen, whereas a SERM like Nolva does it by blocking the receptors in the pituitary.Thirdly, atd has the ability to address the androgen feedback loop. This means that atd will block the pituitary from receiving the signals that tell it to stop producing gnrh. This occurs when levels of androgens begin to increase greatly. That means that the pituitary will continue to produce more and more gnrh, therefore more and more lh and fsh. That will allow the testes to more test, and do so more rapidly.
Again, not making much sense. While true that ATD won't completely prevent all new estrogen formation, it will inhibit it significantly and lower circulating estrogen... that's the whole point of using it. As such, it will negatively affect lipid values.Where nolva supposedly "shines" is in its ability to allow for the production of new estrogen. This allows for improvement in lipid profiles. This is, however, and ill conceived advantage. A steroidal ai, like atd, also allows for production of new estrogen. The only product I know of that does not allow for any increase in circulating estrogen is arimidex.
No. Ideally HCG would be used on-cycle.So, what do we need? Well, ideally any cycle/post cycle therapy would include hcg. Since it is the only true lh mimitek out there, and when used in the correct doses is unsurpassed in its ability to maintain testicular mass and function.
This is possibly one of the most stupid things I've ever read... OK, not really, but it doesn't make any sense.The combination of 6-oxo and an atd allows the atd to focus on the destruction of estrogens. The 6-oxo is then free to aid in the stimulation of lh and fsh.
I am by no means an expert, but the author of this article has no idea what he is talking about.
01-23-2007, 11:19 AM
- 6'2" 213 lbs.
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
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After reading the initial post i could not argue due to limited knowledge of the topic but i wasn't suprised when i saw Savage's response. Are there any other people that agree/ disagree with Colindep's post preferably from previous experience?
01-23-2007, 09:29 PM
Hey RnR, how is your post cycle therapy going so far? I too will be using Restore and Alpha Drive XL (along with Nolva and possibly Fenugreek) in just over a week when my PP/ZOL cycle comes to an end. Anxious to hear some feedback on these relatively new products!Originally Posted by rocknroll
02-01-2007, 10:55 AM
- 6'1" 238 lbs.
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
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bump for some more opinions on this
03-05-2007, 11:48 AM
03-05-2007, 12:39 PM
- 5'10" 215 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Rep Power
I am far too lazy to debate everything contained in that write-up, but suffice to say it's all ****e.
03-05-2007, 03:04 PM
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
- Isle of Misfit Toys
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I have done ATD for post cycle with great success following some cycles, but with terrible results in other cycles.
From my experiences, I've concluded that an AI can be effective provided the cycle is short and mild (<3 weeks @ minimal dosages of 1 compound, preferably a weaker one). More intense cycles call for more conservative measures. This is when a serm comes into play. IMO a SERM may not always be necessary, but it's not worth the risk of not taking one to find out.
Athletic Xtreme Rep
Ask me about the Athletic Xtreme Product Line
03-05-2007, 03:28 PM
that article was written by IronPimper over at bb.com some time ago, and I think he would agree now that the AI only post cycle therapy is not the best route to take. In a more recent post for example he recommended the PCT below:
day 1: nolva 60mg + test booster+ zma + 7-oh
day 2: nolva 60mg + tb + zma + 7-oh
day 3-7: nolva 40mg + tb+ zma + 7-oh
day 8-14: nolva 20mg + tb + zma + 7-oh
day 15-21: nolva 20mg + 25mg atd + tb + zma + 7-oh
day 21-28: 25mg atd + tb + zma + 7-oh
day 29-35: 25mg atd + tb + zma + 7-oh
(link to post)
03-06-2007, 08:33 PM
I generally think SERM is preferable, but I can understand how in some cases AI-only would be acceptable.
But that still doesn't change the fact that the article in question is full of nonsense, and the author has no idea what he's talking about.
03-06-2007, 11:00 PM
09-16-2008, 12:44 PM
Definitely more research would be advised.
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