Guess it's time for pct after 64 wks.

[knox]

Well...I wasn't planning on staying on this long but due to various reasons staying on was a more logical idea. When I first started this cycle in June 05' it was for a powerlifting meet in october. I should have came off after the meet but I was enjoying the gear too much Later, when I fully decided to come off I could not afford a decent post cycle therapy, so I continued. Then the summer came and I was doing landscaping. I really didn't want to put myself through post cycle therapy in 115 degree weather wheel-barreling 300lbs of gravel/block all day. Here are the compounds I used during this cycle; remember a lot of these were spaced out from one another except for the test which was used consistantly.

Test E- 1000mg/wk for 2 months for the meet; then alternated from 600mg/wk to 300mg/wk
NPP- I think it was around 250-300mg/wk for 8wks.
tren ace- 75mg eod for 8wks. (did not run along side npp)
EQ- 400mg/wk for ~14wks
anadrol- 100mg ed. for ~4wks (I think it was bunk or underdosed)
d-bol- 50mg ed. for ~4wks.
Winstrol- 50mg ed. for ~4wks.
M5AA- 40mg ed. for 4 wks.

I didn't run any of the orals along side one another; nor did I run the npp along side the tren. The EQ and anadrol probably got a little over-lapped due to the long ester but I didn't notice much negative effect except a little hbp which I got under control. I did run hcg at 2 different times following Swale's protocol.

Other supps I was taking and will continue to do so:
6-8 grams of vit. C
Saw palmetto
celery seed extract
NAC
milk thistle
multi vit.
garlic
green tea extract
vit. E
Cranberry extract
Vit. B complex

Now I've started some test prop and will soon begin some proviron since it helps with SHBG and will run some hcg along side it. I will start to taper the prop down as well. Here are the supps. I have at hand; and some very shortly:
2 bottles of melting point
CEE
Rebound reloaded
clomid
nolvadex
1 for sure and possibly 2mg's of igf
fenugreek
50grams of long jack
2 bottles of powerful
10,000 iu's of hcg
1 bottle of tribulus from a while ago
Red yeast rice complex
25grams of DHEA
100grams of Cissus
Activate
50grams of horney goat weed
several bottles of maca
I'm thinking about getting some trans pgh as well.

Now I have a pretty good idea on the base of the post cycle therapy, it was goin to look something like this: (from a post by Dr. D a while ago)

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d,
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

wk1: ACT half dose
wk2: ACT full dose, fen 3 caps
wk3: ACT full dose, fen 4 caps
wk4: ACT full dose, fen 5 caps
wk5: ACT full dose, fen 6 caps
wk6: ACT half dose

I am going to run hcg for the 1st two weeks and then start igf at 30-60mcg every other day at 5 day intervals. I am also thinking about extending the the whole post cycle therapy to around 10wks. but I'm not for sure if that is necessary. I also have a lot more stuff then what is shown in the above outline, so I'm wondering how, and if I should include the other products. Anyway, looking for some advice or comments. Thanks,
knox

 

[wildman536]

DAMN!! that must have cost a fortune!!

 

[Jayhawkk]

Couldn't afford a decent PCT but you could afford all that?

 

[knox]

Couldn't afford a decent post cycle therapy but you could afford all that?

It's decent now yes?

 

[SHADOW2492]

Couldn't afford a decent post cycle therapy but you could afford all that?

Ya I don't quite understand that also. I think it is a BS excuse, "I can afford 1000$ of dollars of gear but not 100$ worth of PCT chems."

 

[Jayhawkk]

Honestly, I have no clue what should be run for PCT after a year plus of that cycle.

 

[Ripw4]

perhaps check ebay for some new testicles..:icon_lol:

 

[getjacked63]

perhaps check ebay for some new testicles..:icon_lol:

and maybe also check out zellers cause that is ****ing nuts

 

[knox]

Ya I don't quite understand that also. I think it is a BS excuse, "I can afford 1000$ of dollars of gear but not 100$ worth of post cycle therapy chems."

$1000? For me 1 bottle of rebound reloaded "almost" equals 50grams of test powder or 1000mg/wk for 50 weeks. Hence gear is cheap if you know where to look.
Anyway, besides trying to determine my motive for staying on, I am welcoming any advice.
Jayhawk, I am also a little skeptical about what a good pct for this long of a cycle would be; reason why I bought so many pct products.

 

[jomi822]

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d,
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

The chlomid/nolva combination will do the trick by all means, but toremifene is by far stronger and after such a long time on cycle you might want to look into using that instead of chlomid/nolva.

if you are going to use that much DHEA and hcg post cycle, then you might as well not run pct at all. 200mgs of dhea will boost your androgen levels higher than that of a adolescent boy, and while hcg bring back testicular size, it will just continue to supress the natural gonadatropins you are trying to force into secretion.

hcg should be run before post cycle therapy, not during, and taking dhea for more than a few days (and im talking less than a week) during post cycle therapy is the same as using a steroid during pct. doesnt make much sense. dhea converts to androgens and is like taking andro during pct. its the same as continuing with test prop and at 200 and 100mgs i wouldnt be surprised if your hpta didnt recover at all.

 

[CHAPS]

I'd extend your pct out to 12 weeks or so, i'd use Retain or lean extreme in their for the full 12 weeks at the max dose, along with Activate for the full 12 weeks.

 

[knox]

The chlomid/nolva combination will do the trick by all means, but toremifene is by far stronger and after such a long time on cycle you might want to look into using that instead of chlomid/nolva.

if you are going to use that much DHEA and hcg post cycle, then you might as well not run post cycle therapy at all. 200mgs of dhea will boost your androgen levels higher than that of a adolescent boy, and while hcg bring back testicular size, it will just continue to supress the natural gonadatropins you are trying to force into secretion.

hcg should be run before post cycle therapy, not during, and taking dhea for more than a few days (and im talking less than a week) during post cycle therapy is the same as using a steroid during post cycle therapy. doesnt make much sense. dhea converts to androgens and is like taking andro during post cycle therapy. its the same as continuing with test prop and at 200 and 100mgs i wouldnt be surprised if your hpta didnt recover at all.

So would 100mg for 5 days of dhea be alright or is dhea even necessary? That line-out is from a post by Dr. D from last year I think, so I just figured it was pretty ligit. With the hcg I was going to run it for the last 2 weeks of the four or less weeks I'll be on proviron and test prop. Then I would continue with nolva/clomid etc. but I'll look up toremifene since I'm not real familiar with it.

CHAPS, that is a good idea to continue w/ lean extreme and activate for a longer duration. That is something I'll definitely do.
Thanks for the advise!

 

[TeamSavage]

Bill Llewellyn's "Anabolics 2006" has a section that may be helpful. It outlines what he calls the PoWeR PCT program. I'm personally not qualified to comment on the value of this program, and from what I've read on AM I'm sure other, more knowledgable posters might have criticisms.

But if his introduction is accurate then it might be worth at least considering:

"It was developed by doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover hormonal functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subjects who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinically documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medical literature..." (pg 69)

The PoWeR program consists of the following:
Nolvadex - days 1-45 @ 10mg/day
Clomid - days 1-30 @ 100mg/day
HCG - days 1-16 @ unspecified dosage

Elsewhere in the book he recommends running HCG for PCT at 1500-3000 IU E4D, with a dose of 5000 IU for the first injection after highly suppressive cycles.

My personal thoughts, just looking at the PoWeR program, are that a higher dose of Nolva should be used (at least at first). And of course, the use of HCG during PCT is now thought to be outdated, and HCG is recommended on-cycle instead. But even given that this applies to "normal" cycles, you didn't use HCG on-cycle and your cycle was certainly not "normal", so perhaps it might be helpful in your case.

But like I said, I'm not really qualified to comment on the value of the PoWeR program. Just thought I'd throw it out there...

 

[TeamSavage]

I'm too curious... how much did you gain on this mega-cycle?

 

[jomi822]

So would 100mg for 5 days of dhea be alright or is dhea even necessary? That line-out is from a post by Dr. D from last year I think, so I just figured it was pretty ligit. With the hcg I was going to run it for the last 2 weeks of the four or less weeks I'll be on proviron and test prop. Then I would continue with nolva/clomid etc. but I'll look up toremifene since I'm not real familiar with it.

CHAPS, that is a good idea to continue w/ lean extreme and activate for a longer duration. That is something I'll definitely do.
Thanks for the advise!

DHEA is suppressive, but if you use it at low doses for the first few days to "even yourself out" it wont do any harm. if you were to take 50mgs ED for the first week or so you would have low levels of exogenous androgens, not enough to severly inhibit the affects of PCT but enough to keep you from feeling like ****. However once the SERMS start bring up your natural test levels, DHEA will just be counterproductive.

100mgs for 5 days should be fine.

i ran a log on a toremifene pct, my testicles turned back on so quickly i was shooting peter north loads by day 2 and my testicles actually hurt they starting growing back so fast.

hcg for the last two weeks of the cycle sounds good, what are you looking to run it at for those 2 weeks? remember to use an AI, HCG stimulates aromatase along with testosterone. some people find that out the hard way

 

[knox]

Bill Llewellyn's "Anabolics 2006" has a section that may be helpful. It outlines what he calls the PoWeR post cycle therapy program. I'm personally not qualified to comment on the value of this program, and from what I've read on AM I'm sure other, more knowledgable posters might have criticisms.

But if his introduction is accurate then it might be worth at least considering:

"It was developed by doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover hormonal functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subjects who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinically documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medical literature..." (pg 69)

The PoWeR program consists of the following:
Nolvadex - days 1-45 @ 10mg/day
Clomid - days 1-30 @ 100mg/day
HCG - days 1-16 @ unspecified dosage

Elsewhere in the book he recommends running HCG for PCT at 1500-3000 IU E4D, with a dose of 5000 IU for the first injection after highly suppressive cycles.

My personal thoughts, just looking at the PoWeR program, are that a higher dose of Nolva should be used (at least at first). And of course, the use of HCG during PCT is now thought to be outdated, and HCG is recommended on-cycle instead. But even given that this applies to "normal" cycles, you didn't use HCG on-cycle and your cycle was certainly not "normal", so perhaps it might be helpful in your case.

But like I said, I'm not really qualified to comment on the value of the PoWeR program. Just thought I'd throw it out there...

Nice read. I have several friends who run hcg at the beginning of their pct and have good success. They would run around 5,000 iu's per week for 2 weeks. In my first post i mentioned I ran 2 cycles of hcg following swales protocol, but you're right that this isn't a "normal" cycle. But as it continued I really stopped considering it a cycle and more of a routine. I will however begin my clomid intake at 300mg for the 1st day and maintain it around 150mg/day. The Nolva I will start out at around 80mg and begin to taper accordingly.

To answer your second question about how much I gained; when I started I was around 215-220lbs at 5'9''. At the peak I got up to 245lbs. Though I didn't see the size increase I expected, my strength did increase nicely. olympic squat-585-600lbs raw; bench 375 raw, 455 shirted (2nd time I used the shirt), but I've always have had a weak bench; 600lb deadlift for a single and 505lbs for 10 reps. I even had a 200lb ez-barl curl in competition

 

[knox]

DHEA is suppressive, but if you use it at low doses for the first few days to "even yourself out" it wont do any harm. if you were to take 50mgs ED for the first week or so you would have low levels of exogenous androgens, not enough to severly inhibit the affects of post cycle therapy but enough to keep you from feeling like ****. However once the SERMS start bring up your natural test levels, DHEA will just be counterproductive.

100mgs for 5 days should be fine.

i ran a log on a toremifene post cycle therapy, my testicles turned back on so quickly i was shooting peter north loads by day 2 and my testicles actually hurt they starting growing back so fast.

hcg for the last two weeks of the cycle sounds good, what are you looking to run it at for those 2 weeks? remember to use an AI, HCG stimulates aromatase along with testosterone. some people find that out the hard way

Good deal, I will use that dhea in that manner. I looked up toreminfene but my sources must not carry it. But I'll check out your log since you can never go wrong with the peter north lol. I thought I was going to have more hcg on hand but turns out I will only have 2,000iu's available. So I'm going to run 1,000iu's/wk for 2 weeks. To combat the hcg's aromatizing effect I am using 50mg of proviron/day. If that is not enough I do have some letro.
I had no idea dhea was so suppressive. I always figured it worked by balancing out or supporting the production of other hormones in the body. But I'll take your word for it and run it up to the point the SERM's kick in.

 

[stxnas]

Other supps I was taking and will continue to do so:
6-8 grams of vit. C
Saw palmetto
celery seed extract
NAC
milk thistle
multi vit.
garlic
green tea extract
vit. E
Cranberry extract
Vit. B complex

Try Cycle Support for your support supps. You'll get all of this in two servings:

Red Yeast Rice 1200 mg
Silymarin (milk thistle extract) 1000 mg
NAC 1200 mg
Hawthorn Berry 1000 mg
Saw Palmetto 300 mg
Policosonol 20 mg
Celery Seed Extract 150 mg
Nettle Root 250 mg
Idebenone 100 mg

NutraPlanet.com: Cycle Support (60 Servings) By Anabolic Innovations
Cycle Support [60 Servings] - $31.99
Whey Protein Isolate Concentrate, Cycle Support, diet, supplements - Cycle Support (60 Servings)

Good luck with your PCT.
STX

 

[knox]

dam...that's an attractive product! ty sir

 

[Alexander]

The chlomid/nolva combination will do the trick by all means, but toremifene is by far stronger and after such a long time on cycle you might want to look into using that instead of chlomid/nolva.

if you are going to use that much DHEA and hcg post cycle, then you might as well not run post cycle therapy at all. 200mgs of dhea will boost your androgen levels higher than that of a adolescent boy, and while hcg bring back testicular size, it will just continue to supress the natural gonadatropins you are trying to force into secretion.

hcg should be run before post cycle therapy, not during, and taking dhea for more than a few days (and im talking less than a week) during post cycle therapy is the same as using a steroid during post cycle therapy. doesnt make much sense. dhea converts to androgens and is like taking andro during post cycle therapy. its the same as continuing with test prop and at 200 and 100mgs i wouldnt be surprised if your hpta didnt recover at all.

Is 7-oxo DHEA suppressive as well?

 

[Ddono25]

How about an update on the post cycle therapy? I'd really like to hear how things are going after 14 months on.

 

[schlam_of]

just outta curiosity, have you had any blood work done to know what the damage actually was?

 

[knox]

so far things seem to be pretty good. I haven't had any blood work done as of recent, but as soon as my post cycle is over i will definitely have one done. Here is an outline of what I'm following. I've taken bits and pieces from different peoples pct and put them together with what i have. Along with the outline I'm taking several vitamins etc.

 

[schlam_of]

ya, normally i like getting bloodwork done after pct also..i just thought after such an unheard of length "on", it might be a good idea to get it done to see if there was anything specifically that really needed pct help.

 

[Mach .78]

I didn't see it browsing. How much did you gain from this?

 

[knox]

I didn't see it browsing. How much did you gain from this?

when I started I was around 215-220lbs at 5'9''. At the peak I got up to 245lbs. Though I didn't see the size increase I expected, my strength did increase nicely. olympic squat-585-600lbs raw; bench 375 raw, 455 shirted (2nd time I used the shirt), but I've always have had a weak bench; 600lb deadlift for a single and 505lbs for 10 reps. I even had a 200lb ez-barl curl in competition

 

[Mess]

when did you start your post cycle? how is it going so far ?
sharing your experience can be very beneficial to the board memebers , let us know ?

Cheers buddy

 

[BigAk]

bump

 

[knox]

sorry i've been outa town for a few days. This monday (Jan. 1st) will be the start of my 3rd week of pct. Now what i did before coming off completely, which some of you may not agree with, was i ran 10-20mg of dbol for about 4 weeks. I did this mainly because my first prop shot hurt like a biatch. My last enanthate shot was around the 2nd week of Nov. i think. Anyway, as of now I feel pretty good. I took last week completely off from lifting and took it easy. I'm a little sleepier, especially once evening comes, but I have plenty of energy during the day, and my libido is low but not as bad as I was expecting. My appetite is pretty high which is good. When I get to the 4-5wk. mark I think I will have a solid idea on my recovery progress. I'll keep this updated as the fun continues!

 

[PastorofMuppets]

I'm surprised your balls did not shrink so bad that it caused a inverse vortex.

Like a gonadal version of a white dwarf/black hole.

 

[TeamSavage]

I'm surprised your balls did not shrink so bad that it caused a inverse vortex.

Like a gonadal version of a white dwarf/black hole.

:rofl:
You are the Stephen Hawking of testicles.