gyno aggrevated by Rebound XT ?

[Rastar]

Second time taking superdrol, second time having a rebound that causes gyno. Tried a week of Rebound XT (25mg ramped to 50mg) both times before having to switch to Nolva first time and Torem. this time. Why? Because the RXT immediately and noticably worsens the gyno instead of knocking it down! Why is this? The rebound starts 2 or 3 months after PCT is complete (nolva or torem used for PCT, no RXT).

 

[MANimal]

I believe it is because SD acts as an AI. This means there will be suppression of estrogen while on it. ATD (Rebound XT) also in a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. This will lead to even further suppresion and downregulation of estrogen and it's receptors. After a while, the ER's begin to upregulate and there is a sort of "rebound" of estrogen, if you will. It's homeostasis, your body will do everything it can to normalize and balance everything out.

 

[wildman536]

so if i may,,,

with you saying that since your estrogens already supressed then after a short cycle of superdrol maybe it wouldnt be a good idea to run something that would supress it even more?? (some sort of post cycle therapy product)

 

[NO HYPE]

Second time taking superdrol, second time having a rebound that causes gyno. Tried a week of Rebound XT (25mg ramped to 50mg) both times before having to switch to Nolva first time and Torem. this time. Why? Because the RXT immediately and noticably worsens the gyno instead of knocking it down! Why is this? The rebound starts 2 or 3 months after post cycle therapy is complete (nolva or torem used for PCT, no RXT).

Alright I'm a little confused. So u said you've cycled twice and both times, tried a week of RXT 2-3 months after PCT to try to knock gyno down? So u already had symptoms of gyno when u tried a week of RXT?

 

[MANimal]

so if i may,,,

with you saying that since your estrogens already supressed then after a short cycle of superdrol maybe it wouldnt be a good idea to run something that would supress it even more?? (some sort of post cycle therapy product)

SERMS and AI are completely different in the mechanism of action. An AI could be used on a cycle dealing with a steriod that aromatizes. Not a good idea with something that acts like much of an AI itself.

 

[wildman536]

yeah but gyno and restoring everything back to normal down there are 2 pretty different things. Gyno could be caused by the excess test that was formed during the cycle (therefore the Rebound would have NOTHING to do with that)--the nolva would step in there to help that out, and if the "boys" are back to normal running function then the Rebound did its job. Gyno is gyno and the product you were running for PCT may have worked fine but the excess estro built up may have been suppressed in such a way causing it to cause gyno post cycle. The estrogen may have been supressed to a certian extent then after the Rebound was out of your system "so to say" the estrogen came out full force.

The Gyno IMO was there in the first place and it is making itself more apparent.

 

[MANimal]

Under normal situations, the body will seek to 'normalize' everything over time. Getting your endogenous hormones up and running is indeed a priority, either you do it, or your body will. Now, in the case that you mess up your hormone profile even more during your 'post cycle therapy' aimed at restoring the body's natural balance, your in for a not so fun time. There is sooo much we do that leaves us blindly following a set-in-stone protocol. Understanding the issues on a MUCH more comprehensive basis is what is needed, but rarely ever done (less than practical, but very beneficial to do so)

 

[wildman536]

this is true, and also why i am a believer of the less compounds you put in your body the better it is in the long run as far as the health and "normalization" of your body.

 

[LakeMountD]

Superdrol cannot aromatize since it lacks the double bond at position 4 but it resembles a progestin and can cause progestin related gyno.

ATD cannot cause a rebound effect. Dr.D has specified this many times, since ATD is non-selective.

 

[MANimal]

ATD cannot cause a rebound effect. Dr.D has specified this many times, since ATD is non-selective.

Right, but estrogen isn't. End result of a rebound is supranormal level of estrogen. That is what will aromatize normally, not only in the ER of the breast tissue.

 

[cobra77]

I am a little worried after reading quite a few of theses gyno rebound threads.
I'm 2 weeks into my PP cycle, for post cycle therapy I have toremifene an RR.
Do you guys think I should drop the RR an just use the serm for PCT?

 

[Rastar]

Alright I'm a little confused. So u said you've cycled twice and both times, tried a week of RXT 2-3 months after post cycle therapy to try to knock gyno down? So u already had symptoms of gyno when u tried a week of RXT?

Yes, the gyno started up as a result of post-SD rebounding (not Rebounding, but rebounding).

 

[LakeMountD]

Right, but estrogen isn't. End result of a rebound is supranormal level of estrogen. That is what will aromatize normally, not only in the ER of the breast tissue.

Exactly I said it wasn't, so I don't know what you are talking about.


Originally Posted by Dr.D

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for post cycle therapy with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

 

[MANimal]

Good post Lake.

But I'd like to add, there is a study showing that an AI activity upregulates the ER's. I will find it and post. AI's look very appealing on paper, but don't do as good in reality. The fact of the matter is, different compounds require different PCT's.

That post is spot on about using SERMS and AI's in conjunction.

 

[DR.D]

I am almost convinced now that Nolva is the root of the delayed gyno rebound thing. I have always had great effects at gyno reduction with both SD and RXT. In fact, RXT is one of the first things I start taking when I start to get gyno! Just don't use Nolva in PCT and you'll be fine. The RR is ok in PCT. AIs like letro and anastazole are enzyme inhibitors that can upreg ERs if too much is used for too long. That's why I always recommend super low doses like 0.25mg EOD because that's all it takes. Steroidal AI's that act as irreversible suicide substrates CAN NOT upreg ERs. In fact, many studies show that estrogen remains low even after the drugs are gone from your system. Believe me guys, I wouldn't lie to you and make you risk boobs. I know that sux and I've been doing this a looooong time so try what I'm telling you before you believe all the delayed gyno/AI rebound hype.

 

[LakeMountD]

You know I've wondered for a long time Dr.D (EDIT: stop smoking the crack pipe LMD). Do you think superdrol has anti-estrogenic effects? I always notice less bloat, a more solid frame (also due to glycogen retention), and less sensitivity on the nipples with superdrol. I think it definitely does.

No Nolva in post cycle therapy? What were you specifying here? SERM's sorta have to be used for long term cycles are you referring to short superdrol only cycles?

And I can vouch for RXT being a GREAT AI while on cycle. I use it exclusively. I have tried letro and didn't like it.

I am almost convinced now that Nolva is the root of the delayed gyno rebound thing. I have always had great effects at gyno reduction with both superdrol and RXT. In fact, RXT is one of the first things I start taking when I start to get gyno! Just don't use Nolva in post cycle therapy and you'll be fine. The RR is ok in post cycle therapy. AIs like letro and anastazole are enzyme inhibitors that can upreg ERs if too much is used for too long. That's why I always recommend super low doses like 0.25mg EOD because that's all it takes. Steroidal AI's that act as irreversible suicide substrates CAN NOT upreg ERs. In fact, many studies show that estrogen remains low even after the drugs are gone from your system. Believe me guys, I wouldn't lie to you and make you risk boobs. I know that sux and I've been doing this a looooong time so try what I'm telling you before you believe all the delayed gyno/AI rebound hype.

 

[DR.D]

No Nolva in post cycle therapy? What were you specifying here? SERM's sorta have to be used for long term cycles are you referring to short superdrol only cycles?

No, a SERM is needed, but I'd only use Nolva if it were all I could get. I much prefer toremifene or clomiphene. In the recent cases of delayed gyno related to SD, they were not all using RXT (some were) but they all used Nolva for PCT.

 

[LakeMountD]

No, a SERM is needed, but I'd only use Nolva if it were all I could get. I much prefer toremifene or clomiphene. In the recent cases of delayed gyno related to superdrol, they were not all using RXT (some were) but they all used Nolva for post cycle therapy.

Haha okay just making sure you weren't saying don't use a SERM because I was going to tell you to stop drinking on the weekends . Yeah toremifene worked really well last time i tried it.

 

[wildman536]

No, a SERM is needed, but I'd only use Nolva if it were all I could get. I much prefer toremifene or clomiphene. In the recent cases of delayed gyno related to superdrol, they were not all using RXT (some were) but they all used Nolva for post cycle therapy.

so all in all keep the Nolva out if you can use something else, and if you are going to use Letro keep the doses low .25 eod?

 

[DR.D]

Haha okay just making sure you weren't saying don't use a SERM because I was going to tell you to stop drinking on the weekends . Yeah toremifene worked really well last time i tried it.

Haha, yeah, no more white russians post w/o for me!

 

[DR.D]

so all in all keep the Nolva out if you can use something else, and if you are going to use Letro keep the doses low .25 eod?

Yes, use something else if you can. Nolva is a last resort IMO. Use the letro on cycle. Don't use letro or anastrazole in PCT. If you need an AI during PCT, use RR or RXT only (or any of the other steroidal AIs out these days).

 

[MANimal]

Wow, great info guys. This topic has really picked up.

IMO, a SERM is a good keeper. As Dr.D said, use an AI and taper it to control the estrogen. After a while (4 week PCT), upon cessation, use a SERM to guarantee the chances of gyno not appearing.

Also, Dr.D, this would mean 6-oxo would actually be a very effective compound used in some pct's?

I am prone to high estrogen, when I did a cycle of 6-oxo, my chest fat was dramatically reduced than what it was before without.

 

[DR.D]

... Also, Dr.D, this would mean 6-oxo would actually be a very effective compound used in some post cycle therapy's?

I didn't mention it specifically just because there are so many better choices these days, but yes, 6-oxo would work fine in post cycle therapy.

 

[MANimal]

I didn't mention it specifically just because there are so many better choices these days, but yes, 6-oxo would work fine in post cycle therapy.

Like what Dr.D? I was told AI's like ATD work quite differently than 6-oxo. ATD has great effects on hormones profiles, but the latter works independently of going to something too hormonal.

 

[wildman536]

I didn't mention it specifically just because there are so many better choices these days, but yes, 6-oxo would work fine in post cycle therapy.

T-Drive,,, Baby!! that stuff seems to get stuff ROLLING quick.

 

[DR.D]

Like what Dr.D? I was told AI's like ATD work quite differently than 6-oxo. ATD has great effects on hormones profiles, but the latter works independently of going to something too hormonal.

6-oxo is a suicide substrate for aromatase, just like the others I mentioned. Each have certain advantage and disadvantages. Teslac is mildly anabolic for example with no androgenic effect, but it takes high doses like 6-oxo. Examestane is potent with a good half-life but generates androgenic metabolites. RXT is almost as potent but it's mildly anti-androgenic. That's good for PCT because it raise test by two mechanisms, but rough on libido at higher doses. RR is the most potent mg/mg at raising test, suppressing estrogen, improving lipids and supporting libido too. It's the best choice these days in general, but they can all serve a purpose for different applications.

 

[axekick]

Dr.D, It seems that you have dealt with gyno yourself from this and other posts I've read. Is This true? I have not done anabolic steroids and I haven't done PH's in a while, not since I got gyno from being stupid with M1T. I've considered trying some PH or AAS to reduce my gyno although it seem dangerous, it seems possible. I got the impression that you had some gyno reducing effect from superdrol. Is this true?

 

[DR.D]

Dr.D, It seems that you have dealt with gyno yourself from this and other posts I've read. Is This true? I have not done anabolic steroids and I haven't done PH's in a while, not since I got gyno from being stupid with M1T. I've considered trying some PH or anabolic steroids to reduce my gyno although it seem dangerous, it seems possible. I got the impression that you had some gyno reducing effect from superdrol. Is this true?

Ohhhh yeah. On more than a few occasions. Superdol and halotestin are great androgen in my experience for fighting it. Recently, I have noticed that Prostan seems good in this area too. Although, most anabolics/androgens would be useful if stacked with a SERM or AI, provided thay have a strong androgenic effect and not overtly progestinic. Test stacked with a potent AI works well for gyno too, for example.

 

[axekick]

I don't have access to test or halotestin, but I have seen some superdrol clones lately on some AM sponsors websites. I am definitely interested in trying to reduce my gyno if I can. Here is a helpful cycle I've gathered from this very informative thread;
I should do a cycle of superdrol possibly stacking it with a very low dose of letro (.25mg EOD). After the cycle is complete, start RR (Rebound Reloaded?), and increase the dose each week for four week and quit all at once. Am I totally confused or does that sound possibly effective?

 

[axekick]

Alright, I've done some more reading and I get it now. I think the cycle I posted would be good with the addition of clomid after the cycling with decreasing doses each week as I increase the dose of rebound.
Dr. D, I'd rather not use the clomid if I can help it. Would you say that a serm at the end of my cycle is completely neccessary?

 

[DR.D]

Alright, I've done some more reading and I get it now. I think the cycle I posted would be good with the addition of clomid after the cycling with decreasing doses each week as I increase the dose of rebound.
Dr. D, I'd rather not use the clomid if I can help it. Would you say that a serm at the end of my cycle is completely neccessary?

It depends. If you run 20mg or less of SD for 4wks or less, I'd say you really don't 'need' the Clomid. I wouldn't personally. Some guys have reported shutting down really fast though with a stubborn turn-on after just a few weeks, so it really depends on your chemistry. I'd have some on hand just in case, but it's likely you could neglect it all together. In that case, don't ramp the AI inversely. In fact, if no SERM is used, I'd start with a higher dose of RR (like 2/d) and fade to 1cap/d after a few weeks, or just run it at 1-2caps/d over the whole PCT.

 

[axekick]

Great! Thanks Dr.D. I will follow your advise. I will use RXT throughout the cycle and plan on tapering off unless I need to use clomi in which case I will inverse taper the RXT(probably not). Will there still be a need for letro during cycle?

By the way, I'm going to order Crowler's cycle support today. I'm not going to load up on it though due to time restraints, but I will use it through the cycle and PCT.

Any suggestion on supplements to help my lipid in addition to all that? Flax? Fish? Do any designer supplement's products do that?

 

[DR.D]

... Will there still be a need for letro during cycle? ... Do any designer supplement's products do that?

No letro is needed if you're using RXT. Flax, safflower and almond are my favs for cholesterol control. DS makes Glucophase which can help but is specifically designed for insulin potentiation.

 

[NO HYPE]

If you run 20mg or less of superdrol for 4wks or less. Some guys have reported shutting down really fast though with a stubborn turn-on after just a few weeks.

What are the signs of shut down? How does one know for sure when this happens?

With orals like SuperD, is the need of a SERM more or less dependant on the amount of the milligrams used or on the length of the cycle itself?

 

[DR.D]

What are the signs of shut down? How does one know for sure when this happens?

With orals like SuperD, is the need of a SERM more or less dependant on the amount of the milligrams used or on the length of the cycle itself?

The overt sign is testicular atrophy. Libido should drop and fatigue may become apparent.

Both. It depends on the androgenic potency in many cases. A 2wk cycle using 30mg/d will usually cause less suppression that a 4wk cycle using 15mg, so duration is a major factor. With stronger androgens like M1T, test, tren, etc.. dose becomes a more significant factor. I would use a SERM for at least a few wks, even if you don't feel shutdown after a 1 month, low dose SD cycle. Though I have recovered fine in the past having not used one. SD is very nice on shutdown with me, but not everyone so I hear.