Can it be used with clomid? For example, on a 16 week cycle I may want to do 1 1/2 - 2 months PCT. Could 1st month be torm and transition to clomid for 2nd? I saw this technique earlier in the thread but they were using Nolva. Thanks

Originally Posted by UnicronSpawn

Well, from a purely experiential perspective..... I have not found Torm to be as effective for gyno as Nolva. (Better yet would be a non-steroidal AI like anastrozole (arimidex) or letrozole. The draw back to those being the increase of aromatase enzymes with prolonged use, wich can sometimes cause some unwanted estrogen rebound upon cessation. For this reason alone one might prefer nolva for gyno since it seems to work almost as well as the non steroidal AI's and doesn't seem to have any appreciable rebound effect.

That being said, when it comes to pure PCT effectiveness, no other SERM out there has impressed me like Toremifene. It just seemed to work so much faster for me than clomid or nolva. Or even clomid AND nolva together. But the absolute BEST PCT effect I've experienced would have to be a combo of Toremifene with a STEROIDAL AI. (exemestane, or ATD.) As an INVERSE taper. Starting with a high end dose of the Torm and a minimal dose of the non steroidal AI, and increasing the dose of the AI while tapering the Torm out. Some people like Formastane instead of exemestane or ATD for that purpose but I've not used it in that particular context so I can't vouch.

The steroidal AI's are weaker than the non steroidal, but they are sort of like a free lunch. They permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme instead of wiping out massive numbers of them and subsequently causing an increase in aromatase. I postulate that some cases of so called "delayed on-set gyno", were a result of abrupt cessation of powerful non steroidal AI's post cycle.

Nolva is good for when you want to keep things simple (and cheap). It works fairly well in just about any context. If you want the best possible scenario in both ON cycle gyno protection AND the most effective PCT humanly possible, then you will need to get more than one type.

Hope that helps. Good luck man.

I'm doing something similar, currently. 120 for the first 3 days, now at 60 for the remainder of week one and will probably go to 60/30/30 for subsequent weeks.

This is my first time trying torem, but I'm liking it so far. I'm including ATD at just 25 mg. per day and may inverse it as you said to 25/25/50/50 in the weeks to come. I don't generally like to go any higher than 50 w/ ATD.

I'm also using Blue Up at 4 caps per day and about 1 gram a day of testofen. Both products split into two doses. So far, so good.

How Long After A Test And Deca Cycle Do U Take This Stuff??

Originally Posted by nightfly71

I'm doing something similar, currently. 120 for the first 3 days, now at 60 for the remainder of week one and will probably go to 60/30/30 for subsequent weeks.

This is my first time trying torem, but I'm liking it so far. I'm including ATD at just 25 mg. per day and may inverse it as you said to 25/25/50/50 in the weeks to come. I don't generally like to go any higher than 50 w/ ATD.

I'm also using Blue Up at 4 caps per day and about 1 gram a day of testofen. Both products split into two doses. So far, so good.

How did this work out for you?

Originally Posted by DZL

How Long After A Test And Deca Cycle Do U Take This Stuff??

Opinions differ. However, most test esters are out a couple days sooner then deca. There is such a thing as test decaonate wich is is the same length as deca (Nandrolone decaonate). But almost nobody I know of uses it with any regularity.

That being said i'm going to assume that the test is a medium length one like cyp or enan. Deca should be pretty much useless aprox 16 days after last shot if my memory serves me. It's preferable to start the PCT as close to the time the androgens have dissipated as possible wich makes longer esters harder to time w/ pct than short ones and orals. It also means a gradual taper of levels. (wa, wa, wa, wa-wa-wa-wa-wa!) lol.

Option one is to just try and nail the timing and deal with the sometimes uncomfortable tapering out of the deca.

Option two (optimal IMHO) is to take short esters or orals for those last 16 days after the last deca shot, then BAM!!! come off cold on day 17 and start the PCT first thing in the morning. (This is not only insurance against muscle loss during the taper of the long esters, but it's much more fun) But if no orals, HCG or super short esters are available you're stuck w/ option one).

If you have any HCG, you can use that during those last 16 days (instead of the fast acting oral AAS). In that case, you might start it (the HCG) at 20 or 21 days out instead of waiting till the last test and deca shot.

Good luck bro.

Originally Posted by badfish51581

How did this work out for you?

Very well, actually. I think it was the best I've felt/looked during any previous PCT. I'll probably be continuing to go w/ this protocol in the future.

Originally Posted by nightfly71

Very well, actually. I think it was the best I've felt/looked during any previous PCT. I'll probably be continuing to go w/ this protocol in the future.

Nice.

Yeah man, that inverse taper idea was definitely one of the most effective things I ever tried. I actually got the idea from Dr. D two or three years ago. It seems to work well.

THANX MAN!!!

I'm 2 weeks (halfway) through my A-Andro. 4AD and DecaVol cycle and my body is seriously starting to shut down...one thing is hanging a lot lower than usual but two other things are starting to whither away. I have Toremifene on hand for PCT...should i start taking low doses now so i dont get completely shut down???

No. The anti-E wont slow down the shut down effect, because you're still taking enough androgen to create the feedback loop. The hypothalamus detects over abundance of EITHER estrogenic OR androgenic hormones, so even if you blocked some of the estros w/ a SERM, or eliminated them w/ an AI, you'd still be taking the androgens, so the shutdown effect would happen eventually anyway. Might as well save your anti-e's till you come off. (Unless you're getting gyno symptoms or holding ridiculous amounts of water, in wich case the anti-e's would help with that.) But shut down is inevitable if you take anything strong. The anti-e's just accelerate recovery once you come off.

Originally Posted by Pemmican

I'm 2 weeks (halfway) through my A-Andro. 4AD and DecaVol cycle and my body is seriously starting to shut down...one thing is hanging a lot lower than usual but two other things are starting to whither away. I have Toremifene on hand for PCT...should i start taking low doses now so i dont get completely shut down???

You don't get "completely" shut down.

You take in steroids, they clear, you take more. Eventually you will reach steady state conditions. Whatever rate of test production occurs at steady state, that's as low as it goes.

Steady State Explained:

Think about filling up a cup with a hole in the bottom. You turn on the sink, and water starts going into the cup. The sink is pouring water into the cup faster than the hole in the bottom can allow. This causes the cup to fill up. To prevent the cup from overflowing, the hole gets bigger and bigger, until the water level stays constant.

In the case of taking an steroid/prohormone, water level represents your serum levels, the water from the sink represents the exogenous prohormones, and the hole in the bottom of the cup represents shutdown.

Something to think about...
The only 2 SERMS I've ever used (on different occasions) were Ralox and Torem.
I dosed Torem at 60mg/day and felt a lot more emotional than Ralox!
Recovery was great but I hated the emotional sides and workouts were so-so.

Last PCT (Halo/Epi) I considered the half life of Torem(about 5 days) and decided to dose week 1 and 2 60mg/EOD and week 3 and 4 30mg/EOD.
The emotions were much more in check and maintained strength throughout PCT. Granted the boys weren't raisins (another reason for dosing) but what a difference all the way around.

Throw rocks for going against the grain here...but I think SERMS tend to be dosed a bit too high, and individual reaction will vary.

Originally Posted by UnicronSpawn

Nice.

Yeah man, that inverse taper idea was definitely one of the most effective things I ever tried. I actually got the idea from Dr. D two or three years ago. It seems to work well.

When you say inverse taper, do you mean that you took the higher doses towards the end of the cycle? What did that look like dosage wise?

nndsdsds

Originally Posted by cherigo

Can it be used with clomid? For example, on a 16 week cycle I may want to do 1 1/2 - 2 months PCT. Could 1st month be torm and transition to clomid for 2nd? I saw this technique earlier in the thread but they were using Nolva. Thanks

I hate to quote myself but I was really hoping for an answer to the use of toremifene and clomid one after another.

If that's what you have, I'd imagine it would be better than ending the PCT early due to insufficient supply of Torm.

Some people still like clomid (even as a stand alone), but I'm skeptical as to weather their preference is attributable to eclectic SERM self-experimentation, (that led to clomid becoming their preference), or if it is simply a matter of it being the first SERM they tried, and possibly they simply trust what they know?

I can't say for sure, it would be unfair for me to presume to know their reasons.

However, if I were going to use both I'd definitely do the Torm first (like you said).
Nolva's my second choice for SERMS after Torm. Clomid is only ok IMO. But if that's what you have, it will still be better terminating PCT prematurely IMO.

I have enough of both. I've seen Nolva and Clomid used concurrently and wondered if it was advantageous to use both Tor and Clomid. I know their mechanism of action are a little different and wondered if there would be a synergistic effect.

Thanks for your response

I dosed Torem at 60mg/day and felt a lot more emotional than Ralox!

Have you ever dosed it at 90 or 120?

You guys have that bubble gum/pepto smelling and tasting torem as well? You know, the one in the blue bottle with the red writing. Who has used this one? And was it effective?

Mine was white/chalky and didn't smell bubble gumlike. It tasted how you would imagine a chem to taste. It was very effective for PCT at like 120/60/60, if I remember the dosage right. Good stuff.

I've got the pharmaceutical pills.

I've tried the bubble gum smelling/tasting one in the blue bottle. Lol. It was decent. I didn't use it consistently though. (IE: Not in a PCT context)

About the emotional sides: I remember when Torm was just starting to catch on with guys on this board. It was my first time using it, and me and couple other guys were pouring our hearts out to Dr. D about the emotional sides, and dumping our problems on everybody. Lol.

In retrospect, it's kind of funny, but at the time I felt like a 16 yr old girl who's sweet sixteen party was a washout. Lol.

Good news is that it seems that after the first time it was never that bad again. (No more drama queen syndrome.)

However, I can't say if that applied to everyone else or not.

BTW the highest I ever went was 120mg's/day, and that was just for the first 3-4 days of PCT. (Then dropped to 90mg's/day for the rest of week one, then 60mg's/day for 2-3wks, then 30mg's/day etc...)

It worked better than any of the Nolva or Clomid PCT's I'd tried before that.

Oh yeah, and that dosing taper above was concurrent with a gradual increase in dosage of an OTC aromatase inhibitor. (like, ATD or androstenetrione, etc...) That's what I meant when I used the term "inverse taper".

And it was also preceded by 20 days of conservatively dosed HCG.

I never had any of that emotional stuff when I used it. I've heard that often about Clomid, but not about toremefine.

I don't know if any of the human trials produced much in the way of empirical evidence for it being a regular occurrence or not.

I haven't checked.

But that's just what happened with me and also some other guys.

That doesn't rule out the possibility that it was a coincidence, or even placebo effect.

To answer that, you'd probably have to look that up on Pub-med or something like it. (Medical study journals).

Oh man, so did I get some bunk torem, (the bubble gum one)?

I am starting to get worried.

No, I don't think so. But you should edit out the name from your post. We're not supposed to do that here.

I guess only time will tell huh.

I thought only one place carried it. never saw any blue or flavored versions out there. what I got seemed to be legit for sure.