My Best PCT Ever *hands down* after 20+ weeks ON

[CEDeoudes59]

I've played with Prohormones and various Methylated Designer oral steroids for a couple of years. My cycles never exceeded 4 weeks. Most were 20days. It would be about 20days before I 'felt recovered'. So 20days on - only to feel like **** for another 20days - needless to say, it was a waste of time and probably a very confusing time for my balls.

I just came off a 20+ week cycle, where one of my best friends' committed suicide, a brown recluse spider put me in the hospital where I could hardly function or eat from the antibiotics and pain killers.

During the first 3 weeks of PCT, I made it to the gym maybe 2 times.

But I haven't lost much of anything but some chest strength and a fair amount of bodyfat. I've actually may have gained back and leg strength.

To date, this was by far my best PCT experience. No feeling of shutdown, no ED, no emotional pain beyond what I was going through in the first place.

Here is what I ultimately put together:
final 2 weeks of cycle: Prop 150mg ED
final 2 weeks of cycle: ATD 75mg (used mainly as an AI)
final 2 weeks of cycle: HCG 250ius E3.5D

Day 1 of PCT: Clomid 300mg, ATD 50mg
Week 1 of PCT: Clomid 150mg, ATD 50mg, HCG 250ius x E3.5D
Week 2 of PCT: Clomid 150mg, ATD 50mg, HCG 250ius x E3.5D
Week 2.5: Begin IGF-1, ~40-50mcg ED
Week 3: Clomid 100mg, ATD 50mg, Nolvadex 60mg, HCG 250ius x E3.5D
Week 4: Clomid 100mg, ATD 50mg, Nolvadex 40mg, No HCG
Week 5: Nolvadex 40mg, ATD 50mg
Week 6: Nolvadex 20mg, ATD 50mg (<--- Currently Week 6)
Week 7: Nolvadex 20mg, ATD 75mg*
Week 8: ATD 75mg

* ATD should likely be tapered up and SERMS tapered down

Other Supps: Vitrix (i had it left over), Zinc, Flax, COQ10, Vitamin C, Garlic, Niacin, Creatine.

It's pricey obviously, but I will note that I felt 'recovered' before adding the IGF. Perhaps that's because I took HCG into PCT. IGF is by no means required for PCT - but it certainly helps with the recomp.

The research I've done, mainly from HRT/TRT discussions and studies from John Criser, indicates HCG @ 250ius E3.5D is not suppressive - thus making it okay to take into PCT. Don't get me wrong - 3000ius of HCG WILL be suppressive. But Crisler believes 250ius is the magic number for replacing the LH you would have produced otherwise - while not suppressing HPTA. So methinks, take HCG @ 250ius E3.5D - about halfway into PCT. I'll be running a 8week PCT - so I cut the HCG midway week 3.

I credit the strength gains to the ATD. I'll be getting bloodwork to confirm how I [think] I feel.

[CEDeoudes59]

And here we are (SWALES' PCT PROTOCOL)

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge�. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool� the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

[Alpha Dog]

Good to hear your PCT is going well CED. God knows you've been through hell lately, its great to see you are maintaining most of your gains. Good protocol BTW. Consider Activiate btw as your ATD dosage increases. I'll swear by the stuff.

[milwood]

nice job, CED.

[CEDeoudes59]

Good to hear your PCT is going well CED. God knows you've been through hell lately, its great to see you are maintaining most of your gains. Good protocol BTW. Consider Activiate btw as your ATD dosage increases. I'll swear by the stuff.

oh I definitely want to get my hands on it

[Beelzebub]

excellent job deoudes. replace IGF with GH and you'll have my PCT protocol. rebound worked wonders for my last PCT, glad it worked out for ya too.

[milwood]

we may have been over this, but how soon did you start PCT, right after the prop 2 weeks, and how long after the last of your long ester?

[CEDeoudes59]

15days after last Test E shot, ~36hours after last prop shot.

[bioman]

Good to hear CED. I'm starting on something similar with UHer, Nolva, HCG, PoweFull and fenugreek. We shall see...

[CEDeoudes59]

wait what's Poweful?

since i've been on the darkside... certain supps sneak past me.
i'll look it up

edit: make that 'PoweFull"

[kwyckemynd00]

[milwood]

wait what's Poweful?

since i've been on the darkside... certain supps sneak past me.
i'll look it up

edit: make that 'PoweFull"

ceosm might have a little info for you, although at present, he's understandibly preoccupied.

[Iron Warrior]

Good to hear bro, you've been through a lot lately, hopefully this helps. BTW, after the 8th week, would you think it'd be beneficial to taper down the ATD to decrease an estrogen rebound ? or is it not necessary ?

[milwood]

15days after last Test E shot, ~36hours after last prop shot.

what ever became of the theory that you need to wait 4-5 weeks from the last test E shot to begin PCT due to half-life and cumulative test esters after such a cycle? I guess I'm still confused about it. Everyone traditionally used the 2 weeks (or so) mark after the last test Es hot to begin, then there was that chart that clearly stated that the esters were still present for 4-5 weeks, meaning you COULD start PCT whenever you want, but it isn't gonna help you any until the esters clear and your test levels are at a certain point. Any of you smart guys have feedback? Thanks a lot!

[Moyer]

probably a very confusing time for my balls

hahaha

[Ubiquitous]

Milwood, that chart you speak of, or program rather, shows a good representation on what blood levels would be on paper... but real world results time and time again conflict with theory... I was confused reading that chart as well, and just stuck to the standard of 2 weeks following Enanthate, using Prop as a closeout, just like CED did. My PCT went well and I am fully recovered.. so bollocks to that PCT program. I use it as a reference for blood levels, but not as far as PCT is concerned.

sorry for the hijack, nice job CED.. I'm happy you pulled through like a champ.

[milwood]

Milwood, that chart you speak of, or program rather, shows a good representation on what blood levels would be on paper... but real world results time and time again conflict with theory... I was confused reading that chart as well, and just stuck to the standard of 2 weeks following Enanthate, using Prop as a closeout, just like CED did. My PCT went well and I am fully recovered.. so bollocks to that PCT program. I use it as a reference for blood levels, but not as far as PCT is concerned.

sorry for the hijack, nice job CED.. I'm happy you pulled through like a champ.

thanks, bry.

anyone else?

[NevrEnuf]

what is ATD anyway? (flame away)

[CEDeoudes59]

new age AI - like 'super' 6oxo or 6oxo "on steroids" if you will.
it's not steroidal though

[CEDeoudes59]

Thanks Bryan