two stage SD PCT?
- 09-20-2005, 07:41 PM
two stage SD PCT?
I've noticed with SD that some of the effects seem to last longer than the dosing does. As in, I get the crazy pumps for a few weeks after my last dose of SD. It's certainly a different feeling than being completely on, but it's not like being completely off either. I think there are a few people on here who remarked something similar.
I've also noticed that I felt I required PCT in two stages. As in, immediately after my SD run was over, and again a few weeks later. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this phenomenon. Yeah, it might be totally subjective, but it is a pretty damned strong feeling, and it's happened to me on all three cycles: like the T comes back, then goes away again. And it isn't like I enjoy PCT; Nolva/Clomid is definitely a worse feeling than low-T (but worth it when the boys come back).
Any thoughts here? Perhaps there are some long lived metabolites? It kind of feels that way. Or perhaps my PCT in the first place (which is a standard two week front loaded clomid or nolva PCT at 100/20 day after the first few days of double doses) is not strong enough? Perhaps maintaining a low dose of nolva for a longer time is more effective? This certainly would argue for longer cycles of "on" time, as, why bother with two weeks of juice and a month or two of whining that my girlfriend doesn't hold me enough.
The last time I noticed this was off of a 2-week minicycle (12+ gains kept; w00t). I did the standard 2-week PCT. Two weeks after that, I felt supressed again, and in fact, got kind of ill, so I went back on to kill the bug (it worked!).
This is for scientific purposes; I will be putting off my next cycle of the stuff for a good many months if ever. I'm definitely as big as I ever want to be; maybe a little too big. Though I might want to puff up again after a long lean: and, no, I don't think SD is any good for cutting: I feel mighty mighty when I am on it and eating, but like warmed over ass when on SD and a diet, wheras many other things do not make me feel like ass while on a diet. But I am presently on cycle and will shortly be off again.
Also, I've heard of bros taking antibiotics as a matter of course while on PCT to deal with the immune system suppression. Anyone here do that? I'm seriously considering it for the end of this one, but I have to order the stuff now.
Thanks a lot for any advice.
- 09-20-2005, 09:08 PM
I think SD does have some long term effect, I got gyno 4 months after I used it. I'd be more careful with all these new designer steroids, no studies been done (and never will) on long term effects.
- 09-20-2005, 10:33 PM
damn, gyno after 4 months, iv been off my first cycle of sdrol for about a month now, that scares me though
09-21-2005, 01:26 AM
4 months? wow that seems a bit of a stretch to me to be attributed to SD to me. but who knows... like you said no studies have been done yet. you werent doing anything else that may have caused this gyno flare up? you werent just so happening to of been taking trib were you? i honestly think that was what caused my last gyno bout considering i hadnt been on a cycle of anything for about 2 months.
09-21-2005, 05:08 AM
I don't think trib. can cause gyno, but I don't use trib anyway, because I think it's useless.
Last cycle was straight SD in april, been nutty since, in august I got gyno out of nowhere, still fighting with it.
09-21-2005, 07:46 PM
That's funny you say this. I did my 1st (and so far only) SD for 3 weeks during May, and starting getting gyno symptoms just a couple of weeks ago (very sensitive nipples/breast area). I was attributing it to a cycle of MOHN/4-AD I started in late July, but had cut short due to tendonitis and the inability to train well. After the MOHN/4-AD, PCT was primarily RXT, but did not seem to recover as quick as usual. I have done both MOHN and 4-AD in the past, and never got gyno symptoms. I've never had painful/sensitive nipples before, ever.
09-21-2005, 08:05 PM
I've run very high doses of 4-ad and m4ohn before and never had problem. I've used SD when it's first came out in december in the end of my 1-t/4-ad cycle and I got gyno after about 1 week after I started sd. Started nolva and it was gone.
Now I have to deal with it again.
09-21-2005, 10:01 PM
Interesting. I ran a 4 weeker of superdrol through July and noticed sensitive nips during week 4. Used RXT and LX during PCT and the tenderness in my nipples subsided. Since finishing PCT in late August, I have been dealing with sensitive nips again. I used up the remaining nolva that I had in an effort to alleviate the symptoms but to no avail. At 5 or 6 mls/day, the pain lessened, but I could not continue dosing this high. I have not had problems with M1T, 4AD or test enanthate. I think there may be something to this?? I am going to try some ATD again starting today and will see how it goes. What have you tried DmitryWI?
Originally Posted by DmitryWI
09-22-2005, 01:56 PM
2 cycles of sd. no problems here.
09-22-2005, 07:07 PM
I started rxt 4 caps decreasing to 2 in 6 weeks. Gyno reduced about 80% and it wasn't sensitive anymore... untill last week. It came back. I started nolva, because I couldn't take rxt any longer (got dry joints, my knees are killing me). Gyno getting much better though.
09-22-2005, 09:58 PM
i just finished my 2nd cycle of sd. it took me like 6 weeks to feel right the first time. i was "functional", but my urges were low lets say. it's been several weeks this time again. clomid is clomid.., the fenugreek seems to do nothing. it's just a long slow recovery for me.
09-25-2005, 09:33 PM
what type of cycle did you run your nolva at to get rid of the gyno? im dealing with the same problem right now.
12-19-2005, 02:07 PM
all these delayed gyno cases are scary/weird
Anyone have some scientific input on this?
12-19-2005, 06:07 PM
I still have to take nolva or rxt to control gyno, if I stop, it comes back 1-2 weeks later.
12-19-2005, 06:08 PM
What I said beforeOriginally Posted by DmitryWI
12-19-2005, 06:14 PM
12-19-2005, 06:53 PM
Very interesting. I have also experienced a similar thing a month after my 2nd Superdrol cycle. During my first cycle I ran a nolva-only PCT and recovered fine with no effects afterwards. However at the time of PCT on my second cycle I didnt have enough nolva so I ran an RXT-only PCT and that it seems is where the problems started. Recovery on RXT only was poor to say the least, less than a month later gyno appeared and within a day or two I had lumps under my nipples! Fortunately by then I had enough nolva and running 40mg for 8 days has calmed it down and the lumps are shrinking.
This is most certainly worrying, but it does seem that the common factor here is that most people suffering from this "delayed-gyno" used RXT primarily or alone for PCT. Maybe there is a delayed estrogen-rebound of some sort when using RXT?
12-19-2005, 07:47 PM
my lifting partner got a slight case of gyno in one nipple (looks like a quarter stuck in his nipple) and he hasnt touched gear/ph's since a cycle he ended in july.
so freakin strange if u ask me
12-20-2005, 08:08 PM
I used nolva for pct after every cycle
12-21-2005, 07:03 PM
12-23-2005, 05:05 PM
How long after PCT, and what did your PCT look like?Originally Posted by Pioneer
12-23-2005, 06:12 PM
I have no specific scientific insights on this, but there is probably no statistically significant trend with SD and delayed gyno. Endocrine after-effects are usually a result of adaptation and once you start using any gear, it can reestablish a new hormonal state post cycle. SD is anti-estrogenic, so if someone was going to get gyno 5 years down the road anyway, SD may help to trigger or precipitate that sooner by an estrogen rebound mechanism. I have no studies to show this, just making a point. Breast tissue responds to estrogen/progestins so a non-aromatizing androgen is very unlikely to cause this directly, though certain people are just sensitive to these phenomena. I’d like to see other links to this subject matter if anyone else has noted this (such as Krzna’s 'Superdrol for Dummies' thread).
12-23-2005, 06:38 PM
Dr.D, all the cases i've heard about delayed onset gyno after an SD cycle were from this board. This issue was brought to attention over in Krzna's SD Dummies thread. If i recall there are 3-4 members who have reported this.Originally Posted by DR.D
12-24-2005, 10:02 AM
Wow...this is damn scary...I ran an SD cycle on October and while reading this I just hope I don't develop any gyno. My PCT consisted on RXT, DHEA, and Tribulus with no nolva, but I am going to try to get nolva just in case i happen to develop gyno.
12-24-2005, 10:30 AM
I recently ran my third cycle of SD. This time my PCT experience was the best but I think it was for two reasons. My previous two cycles I ran straight 4wks at 20mg/ed followed by Nolva only for 4wks at the usual doses. My strength fell off significantly after approx two wks. And it seemes like forever to get my sex drive back.
This time around I did a five week cycle 20/30/30/20/10. I did the nolva as usual but added DHEA at 300mg/ED split up in three doses and added ZMA at night. I started at 210lbs (5'10") and got up to 230 at one point but I didn't like that weight at all. 225 was much more comfortable for me.
During PCT I cut my carbs down quite a bit. Four weeks into PCT my strength held much better than the previous two cycles and considering I was cutting carbs I was very pleased. I even lost at least 1/2 to 3/4 inch on my waist (down to a 33). I was then struck with a four day stomach virus so that beat the hell out of me but I still was able to maintain 215lbs even after not holding food for almost the entire four days.
In addition my sex drive never really dropped during this cycle and the boys came back much quicker than in the past. So I don't know if it was the 5th week at 10mg or the DHEA/ZMA or both but this is what I will run next time around as well.
12-24-2005, 10:39 AM
TKE-PBOY, Good to see you did a SD cycle without Nolva and don't have a problem.. I will be doing a similar cycle and PCT in January.
How old are you? I was wondering if age had any effect on gyno after a SD cycle.
12-24-2005, 09:47 PM
No matter the current trend, I totally agree with this older method. Pyramid orals and use DHEA stacked with a SERM post cycle! Your sex drive with thank you, your balls will come home faster and you may even lose a little fat during PCT. Although, my very first SD cycle was a 1 month SD only cycle and I didn't use a SERM for PCT (fen/DHEA only). It was still successful and I held my gains, but RXT post cycle is an attractive alternative to SERM with short, low suppression orals like SD.Originally Posted by roadsidejustice
12-24-2005, 11:54 PM
just out of curiousity, what kind of doses of rxt were being used in these PCTs that caused problems, even though it doesnt make much sense for rxt to be the culprit, i am just curious...
12-25-2005, 11:42 AM
Biker, I did 3 weeks of SD stand alone wk1- 10mg, wk2- 20mg, wk3-20mg. I felt the blood pressure increased during the 2nd week. I started PCT (4 week long) right after and started RXT at 75mg and work it down to 25mg. First 2 weeks at 75mg and wk3 @50mg, 4wk@25. I did experince my joints, specially my knees, getting a lil' sore, but nothing I couldnt handle.Originally Posted by biker340
Hope this helps you out brother and good luck with your cycle.
12-25-2005, 03:52 PM
i got puffy nips off of both m1t and SD...its odd i must say
01-02-2006, 05:27 AM
FWIIW, I have never taken RXT. Only nolva. I did take Ultra HOTter after my Nolva coming down from that last mini cycle (I have had bad sides with longer cycles, so I prefer 2-3 weeks) and had just about the nicest landing ever. I did have the "superdrol echo" again this time, like clockwork, about a month after PCT (even though I did a longer PCT this time around). Nothing too scary; I just started to feel jacked as hell. Maybe it was simply some sort of "testosterone rebound."Originally Posted by reef
I'll be trying a nolva + RXT PCT with my next SD mini cycle (in a week or two). I expect another SD-echo this time around, but I am not going to worry about it too much, unless my gyno gets worse (I have pubertal gyno; the RXT will be in part an attempt to finally deal with it).
01-02-2006, 07:53 PM
The echo is real alright. I used to get it all the time as a teenager when I did oral only cycles of Dbol or Methyltest. It usually happened much sooner, not over a month later though. It makes test production slightly higher than it was originally, and your balls look bigger to show it. At 16, my test was usually around 700-750. At 21, my test was usually closer to 850. Test rebounds (I would call it 'the bounce') are the best explanation, since values should decrease after 19, not keep going up! I didn't even PCT back then either. I'd just pulse or pyramid orals usually. This "test rebound" effect could partly explain the latent gyno some are reporting, but I still don't see why it should only be confined to SD cycles and why it hits so late if that's the case. It would mostly be associated with hard but brief suppressions. I didn't get very suppressed with SD at all, but I see that some claim to. I conclude than the "SD echo" phenomenon could result from the test rebound effect that Phaeton66 has suggested in certain individuals very sensitive to androgens.Originally Posted by phaeton66
01-02-2006, 08:44 PM
Does anyone know if SD would cause gyno through prolactin along with estrogen? I imagine that estrogen is likely the cause, but has anyone heard of any prolactin related possibilities or mechanisms?
01-02-2006, 09:47 PM
The prolactin route is exactly my theory right now. I went to see an endocrinologist to discuss my gyno, lack of libido/worries of low Test, and generally feeling crappy all the time. His thought is that it is prolactin related.Originally Posted by Sky9
Dr. D, what are your thoughts on SD maybe having an effect on prolactin and/or dopamine levels post cycle?
01-03-2006, 12:21 AM
Just based on how SD makes me feel, I would guess no, but can't rule it out. It would need to down-regulate dopamine levels post cycle in order to do this, but I would suspect these same people complaining about latent gyno would be getting more cases of depression on average. I like the delayed bounce theory best at this point, but that may also have prolactin implications (as all successful PCT's will at least locally in the gonads and can be expected). Or, it may be something else that we are unaware of, such as a thyroid or globin issue. I am just not sure right now. If it proves to be a true syndrome, I will get to the bottom of it I assure you. It is likely that a fix will come first which will yield the needed insight as to what it is, so start experimenting! I suggest Cylert, any Rx amphetamine, Bromo, or Permax for "prolactin gyno". Also, avoid anti- psychotics (like Thorazine, Mellaril, Haldol, etc...)Originally Posted by Mass_69
01-03-2006, 05:09 PM
So this bounce effect raises baseline test levels long term (until they'd drop normally, that is)? Also, would mirapex help with the prolactin gyno? I got a minor case from being on elavil for years.Originally Posted by DR.D
01-03-2006, 10:55 PM
It would appear that the bounce can be maintained for many years. My test levels did not begin to drop until I was 29, and I had cycled on and off over the years many times (much less however between the ages of 21-27). Mirapex is a dopaminergic agonist, so it should be useful, but I am not too familiar with it specifically.Originally Posted by lask
01-04-2006, 04:25 AM
Interesting, do you have to gamble by doing no pct for a short oral pyramid to get a good effect like that? I'd rather not really.Originally Posted by DR.D
Btw, I used your dhea/fenugreek protocol after my first cycle (a short run) a few months back and kept just about everything despite getting sick.
01-04-2006, 04:53 PM
It's not so much a gamble, it would just be that once I saw my nuts disappearing, I'd start pyramiding down! That was pretty much my method, and I always got the bounce that way. If I had forced the issue a few more weeks, it may have been a delayed bounce of a month or so. Once when I ignored the suppression, I didn't bounce until about 16 months later! It's important to start a punctuated ramp down (not more than 2 wks in length) as soon as visible signs of suppression become apparent.Originally Posted by lask
I'm glad the fen/DHEA combo worked for you. It's a great break for your liver when you don't really need an all out SERM based PCT. Sorry to here you got sick though. DHEA is a good immune booster so it could have been worse I suppose.
01-06-2006, 03:52 PM
Could the delayed gyno come from Doing to many PCT products? Maybe bring the doses back some.
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