Best PCT I've ever had!!!
01-26-2006 11:01 AM
Grunt76 Yes I used Liver Care during the cycle - So if I used S ARMS am I covered, or do I need SERMS too?
Last cycle I ran with RETAIN and PCT from AX, and liver came back ok, but test came back slow. From 29 to 284 in 8 wks - originally at 700 a year back.
01-26-2006 11:53 AM
SARMS & SERMS is the way to go, with a big plus to an anti-cortisol... Retain is good.
How did you do that specific PCT and did you log it, what was your cycle like.... ? Many questions here! Maybe you need the unmethylated version of ATD....
01-26-2006 04:45 PM
I suggest liver care pre-, during, and post-cycle. Some prefer to leave them out during the cycle, in fact there is info regarding silymarin negatively affecting the efficacy of some androgens---not disasterously, but to some degree. I think Dr. D referenced the studies.
I use milk thistle and NAC at least before and after cycle, and usually during cycle as well (NAC at least.)
01-26-2006 05:31 PM
I believe you are referring to *MY* thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...istle+research
Originally Posted by milwood
I agree with most of what you say but personally I prefer to drop the MT and keep only NAC & ALA going into PCT. I find that the reasoning behind the idea of not using the MT during the cycle is deeply flawed: not hindering gains I can agree with, but taking something that hinders gains while in PCT because you didn't take it during the cycle doesn't make sense IMO. I'd rather gain 10lbs and lose 2 in PCT than gain 15 and lose 10 in PCT.
I feel that if you protected your liver properly during the harshest time, that you don't need as much protection when the threat is gone.
01-26-2006 05:49 PM
oh, that was your post! Sorry, props to you then!
I'm not sure about the milk thistle thing either at this point, and I usually use it quite regularly no matter what I'm doing (thinking being that I'd rather be (liver) healthy first and foremost when using toxic stuff.
As far as during cycle vs. post (or not) I think the logic would be that the silymarin somehow decreases the efficacy of an androgen/anabolic. Again, I am unsure whether this is conclusive, but as such, it would be logical to leave it out when using the anabolic.
Then, when NOT running the anabolic, you kick it in to protect the liver, but at this point it isn't a negative, because you aren't using something which hinders gains per se, but something that simply may interfere with the compound which you are no longer running anyway.
Again, I'm not sure about any of this, so thanks for your posts and input. I always go better-safe-than-sorry regarding the old liver, 'cause I spent a considerable part of my life punishing it!
01-26-2006 06:04 PM
Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that even at low doses, sylmarin inhibits 2 of the 3 pathways to PGF2a synthesis, which is ONE (an important one, but just one nonetheless) of the many ways in which AAS increase the muscles' size & strength. This in turn increases the rationale for non-methylated AAS cycles.
During the first 2 weeks of PCT, your natural production of AAS is negligible, so sylmarin's inhibition of PGF2a synthesis isn't a dramatic thing to undergo. OTOH, later during PCT you do want as much of the effects that your natty test will provide. This is absolutely essential to keeping gains.
Now, ALA is also a hepatoprotectant that AFAIK does NOT in any way impede anabolism. It does actually promote anabolism slightly, with its nutrient partitioning properties. N-acetyl-cysteine, one of the most potent hepatoprotectors, does impede anabolism, but only through ONE of the three pathways to PGF2a synthesis.
All these things induce the conclusion that MT is best when used only when necessary, preloading before the methyls, during the cycle, and stopping after 1 week of PCT or so. NAC, IMO, should be started at the same time as the methyls, as it goes to work right away. IMO NAC can be run through PCT. Of course ALA should IMO be a staple to anyone who trains hard so that's that.
A footnote is that MT can be stressful to the liver if taken only sporadically. It is best to start a course and keep it going rather than go on and off, which can actually increase the damage from hepatotoxic substances. Not so with either NAC or ALA.
Of course, I'm always looking to learn more so please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
01-26-2006 06:20 PM
good info Grunt76! makes sense
01-26-2006 06:56 PM
yeah, really good. Do you think that a lot of people are overusing milk thistle? I probably am. Now I'm curious if low-moderate dosing all the time is the best plan (except in the PCT time you mentioned) rather than just using it pre-, during, and/or post-cycle? Also, what's the consensus on appropriate daily dosing. Seems to me that many MT supps are pretty underdosed, but maybe that's not the case afterall. I was using about 1200mg/day powder in divided doses 80% silymarin.
Originally Posted by logan
01-26-2006 07:58 PM
1000mg is a good dose. I think some people misuse it, some people overuse it, and some people don't use it at all when they should. I think few people optimize their usage. Heck, I've seen a few people doing X-factor with milk thistle, which is just WRONG.
Overall I feel that NAC and ALA are two very good hepatoprotectors that should be on the "A" list, and MT on the "A-" list, meaning to use it when needed, but no more. A natural athlete does put himself at a significant disadvantage IMO when using it except when really needed (i.e. around/during methyls).
01-27-2006 06:06 PM
I only use milk thistle the first few weeks of PCT when SERM intake is still very high.
Originally Posted by Grunt76
01-27-2006 07:10 PM
Since you're here, what do you think about my view of things?
Originally Posted by DR.D
01-27-2006 11:32 PM
I agree for the most part and adopt a similar strategy. For example, I don't even use MT with less than 30mg SD or less than 60mg 4OHMN. It should be reserved for high dose methyl use or harsh methyls such as anadrol, M1T, halo, etc.. I'll usually start taking it halfway into a cycle once I've been on methyls long enough for my transaminase to exceed 50-60 and into PCT a few weeks with the high dose Clomid (100mg or greater). NAC all the way on cycle. ALA every morning with extra on w/o days on and off cycle. Plus E, C, selenium, lecithin and all the other common anti-ox's daily. Other than that, I think MT is probably over used as well and high protein intake is the first key to a healthy liver.
Originally Posted by Grunt76
01-27-2006 11:41 PM
Hey I got the Dr.D seal of approval! I'd rep myself if I could.