Best PCT I've ever had!!!
- 11-29-2005, 10:02 PM
- 11-29-2005, 11:27 PM
12-02-2005, 05:13 PM
I just got my pct supps. A bottle of Novedex Extreme, Retain, Rebound XT, and Perfect Cycle. I have 26 days left of my first 8 week cycle with e-max lmg. Will these be enough for pct?
12-02-2005, 06:51 PM
01-25-2006, 12:01 AM
muscles4life: im about to start a prop/tbol/igf-1 cycle. im interested in doing a pct similar to urs since u had such good results. my question is what anti-e's were u on during ur cycle?
01-25-2006, 04:57 PM
HELP OF EXACT PCT Supps needed
Well I am trying not to get confused here - I was going to take PCT and RETAIN along with a Liver Care product - now Delta 314 and others have me considering adding Novedex XT and ActivaTe - can someone net this out as a standard set of PCT supps and which are choices from one company vs another:
It sounds like we need something to take care of the liver, something to suppress cortsiol and estrigen, and something to increase testosterone (lots of it). I was going to throw in a natural Test booster like LH BOOST for IDS (has Trib) - sounds like a supp with Fenugreek in it may help too. IDS TestoFen had it but is not being sold anymore. More advice please.
Novedex Extreme - anti-aromatase supplements preventing the production of estrogen aromatase inhibitor
Retain - This matrix of compounds including 17a-methyl-baET works by inhibiting a natural enzyme to lower muscle destroying cortisol levels in the muscle tissue. Cortisol is the number one reason for losing muscle mass after an anabolic compound cycle. Retain also increase T-3 production from the thyroid which causes an increase in metabolism and fat-loss.
Rebound XT, -Anabolic Xteme is proud to introduce the most efficient means of controlling estrogen and boosting natural testosterone available through supplementation. Rebound XT containing the highly bioavailable active ingredient Diene-3 will prevent your body from converting muscle-building testosterone into estrogen, while indirectly increasing the amount of total testosterone your body produces. This will allow you to gain strength, enhance recovery and build more muscle. Rebound XT which contains the ingredient Diene-3 can be used either as the core of a post (pro)hormone cycle therapy (PCT) plan, or as a stand-alone, to raise/restore natural testosterone levels and decrease estrogen levels. For best use, combine it with Retain for a well-rounded PCT Stack that lowers estrogen, controls cortisol, and boosts natural testosterone production.
I think this is the same as PCT - PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) is a hormone optimizer that can increase your natural testosterone production by as much as 400%, while combining a new powerful anti-aromatase that decreases estrogen levels in males an average of 50%. There is also a new and highly aromatase inhibiting compound that binds to aromatase more tightly and prevents estrogen conversion. Bottom line, when finishing any Anabolic Xtreme Cycle, no other recovery product will help you keep your gains like PCT.
and Perfect Cycle - liver care (milk thystle, etc) - take this before during and after - till liver enzymes are ok (after another blood test)
01-25-2006, 05:41 PM
Novedex, Rebound and PCT are all variants on the theme of ATD and you will meet personal preference for any of them among the crowd.
Retain is almost a must, as is a SERM.
01-26-2006, 11:14 AM
Thank you for the response - that helps alot. If I have this straight, I need:
1.) A SERM? (REBOUND XT, PCT, or Novedex) to inhibit estrogen & increase test
2.) RETAIN - to fight cortisol/catabolism
3.) A Liver Care Product (Milk Thystle, etc) - on & post cycle
4.) Optional - through in some natural test booster
01-26-2006, 11:56 AM
Heh, Rebound, PCT and novedex are SARMs and also aromatase inhibitors, not SERMS, which are clomid and nolva.
And why do you so insist on your "liver care" in PCT? Did you not use it during your cycle? I'm not saying you don't need to use it in PCT, but if you used it during your cycle, there's no need to put it into your list of PCT supps...!??!
01-26-2006, 12:01 PM
Grunt76 Yes I used Liver Care during the cycle - So if I used S ARMS am I covered, or do I need SERMS too?
Last cycle I ran with RETAIN and PCT from AX, and liver came back ok, but test came back slow. From 29 to 284 in 8 wks - originally at 700 a year back.
01-26-2006, 12:53 PM
SARMS & SERMS is the way to go, with a big plus to an anti-cortisol... Retain is good.
How did you do that specific PCT and did you log it, what was your cycle like.... ? Many questions here! Maybe you need the unmethylated version of ATD....
01-26-2006, 05:45 PM
I suggest liver care pre-, during, and post-cycle. Some prefer to leave them out during the cycle, in fact there is info regarding silymarin negatively affecting the efficacy of some androgens---not disasterously, but to some degree. I think Dr. D referenced the studies.
I use milk thistle and NAC at least before and after cycle, and usually during cycle as well (NAC at least.)
01-26-2006, 06:31 PM
I believe you are referring to *MY* thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...istle+researchOriginally Posted by milwood
I agree with most of what you say but personally I prefer to drop the MT and keep only NAC & ALA going into PCT. I find that the reasoning behind the idea of not using the MT during the cycle is deeply flawed: not hindering gains I can agree with, but taking something that hinders gains while in PCT because you didn't take it during the cycle doesn't make sense IMO. I'd rather gain 10lbs and lose 2 in PCT than gain 15 and lose 10 in PCT.
I feel that if you protected your liver properly during the harshest time, that you don't need as much protection when the threat is gone.
01-26-2006, 06:49 PM
oh, that was your post! Sorry, props to you then!
I'm not sure about the milk thistle thing either at this point, and I usually use it quite regularly no matter what I'm doing (thinking being that I'd rather be (liver) healthy first and foremost when using toxic stuff.
As far as during cycle vs. post (or not) I think the logic would be that the silymarin somehow decreases the efficacy of an androgen/anabolic. Again, I am unsure whether this is conclusive, but as such, it would be logical to leave it out when using the anabolic.
Then, when NOT running the anabolic, you kick it in to protect the liver, but at this point it isn't a negative, because you aren't using something which hinders gains per se, but something that simply may interfere with the compound which you are no longer running anyway.
Again, I'm not sure about any of this, so thanks for your posts and input. I always go better-safe-than-sorry regarding the old liver, 'cause I spent a considerable part of my life punishing it!
01-26-2006, 07:04 PM
Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that even at low doses, sylmarin inhibits 2 of the 3 pathways to PGF2a synthesis, which is ONE (an important one, but just one nonetheless) of the many ways in which AAS increase the muscles' size & strength. This in turn increases the rationale for non-methylated AAS cycles.
During the first 2 weeks of PCT, your natural production of AAS is negligible, so sylmarin's inhibition of PGF2a synthesis isn't a dramatic thing to undergo. OTOH, later during PCT you do want as much of the effects that your natty test will provide. This is absolutely essential to keeping gains.
Now, ALA is also a hepatoprotectant that AFAIK does NOT in any way impede anabolism. It does actually promote anabolism slightly, with its nutrient partitioning properties. N-acetyl-cysteine, one of the most potent hepatoprotectors, does impede anabolism, but only through ONE of the three pathways to PGF2a synthesis.
All these things induce the conclusion that MT is best when used only when necessary, preloading before the methyls, during the cycle, and stopping after 1 week of PCT or so. NAC, IMO, should be started at the same time as the methyls, as it goes to work right away. IMO NAC can be run through PCT. Of course ALA should IMO be a staple to anyone who trains hard so that's that.
A footnote is that MT can be stressful to the liver if taken only sporadically. It is best to start a course and keep it going rather than go on and off, which can actually increase the damage from hepatotoxic substances. Not so with either NAC or ALA.
Of course, I'm always looking to learn more so please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
01-26-2006, 07:20 PM
01-26-2006, 07:56 PM
yeah, really good. Do you think that a lot of people are overusing milk thistle? I probably am. Now I'm curious if low-moderate dosing all the time is the best plan (except in the PCT time you mentioned) rather than just using it pre-, during, and/or post-cycle? Also, what's the consensus on appropriate daily dosing. Seems to me that many MT supps are pretty underdosed, but maybe that's not the case afterall. I was using about 1200mg/day powder in divided doses 80% silymarin.Originally Posted by logan
01-26-2006, 08:58 PM
1000mg is a good dose. I think some people misuse it, some people overuse it, and some people don't use it at all when they should. I think few people optimize their usage. Heck, I've seen a few people doing X-factor with milk thistle, which is just WRONG.
Overall I feel that NAC and ALA are two very good hepatoprotectors that should be on the "A" list, and MT on the "A-" list, meaning to use it when needed, but no more. A natural athlete does put himself at a significant disadvantage IMO when using it except when really needed (i.e. around/during methyls).
01-27-2006, 07:06 PM
I only use milk thistle the first few weeks of PCT when SERM intake is still very high.Originally Posted by Grunt76
01-27-2006, 08:10 PM
01-28-2006, 12:32 AM
I agree for the most part and adopt a similar strategy. For example, I don't even use MT with less than 30mg SD or less than 60mg 4OHMN. It should be reserved for high dose methyl use or harsh methyls such as anadrol, M1T, halo, etc.. I'll usually start taking it halfway into a cycle once I've been on methyls long enough for my transaminase to exceed 50-60 and into PCT a few weeks with the high dose Clomid (100mg or greater). NAC all the way on cycle. ALA every morning with extra on w/o days on and off cycle. Plus E, C, selenium, lecithin and all the other common anti-ox's daily. Other than that, I think MT is probably over used as well and high protein intake is the first key to a healthy liver.Originally Posted by Grunt76
01-28-2006, 12:41 AM
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