Still Shutdown post PCT - what to do?

[1976pianoman]

Hello,

I am still shut down following a 30 day Nolva 20mg/day PCT. My cycle was Epistane 30/40/50/60. I actually cut it short. I was going to run 6 weeks, but I was feeling so lethargic even after reducing the epi dosage, that I decided to stop and never again cycle without test. I stopped taking the Nolva yesterday, and am wondering what I should do.

I have since learned that Clomid is better for restoring test and that Nolva is best for gyno. I will never again run a PCT without Clomid. My question is, 1. Is this normal to be shut down still? 2. Will I eventually bounce back, or is there a possibility that something is wrong? 3. Should I just wait it out or should I order some Clomid? It would take at least 2 weeks for it to arrive.

There is an outside possibility that the research chem Nolva I'm using is bunk. If it is, then technically I'm not taking anything for PCT. With this scenario, how long might it take for test levels to return to normal naturally, cause maybe that is what is going on?

Thank you.

 

[liftin4fun]

Not sure bud. Always order prescription clomid/nolva etc. Get blood work done to see where your truly at.

 

[El Hefe]

First, you should have bloods run so that we actually know what we're dealing with. Epistane isn't much of a cycle IMO. So it would be valuable to know exactly where your at.

If/Assuming your shutdown, I would run a 2nd (better) pct.

Clomid 50/25/25/25 (maybe even 25 eod last week)
Natty Test Booster, my choice is HCGenerate.
The clomid and natty test boosters are a must in pct.

Then you may want to add in some daa and maybe some formasurge.

Then remember, 'time on' = cycle + pct + 2nd pct (in your case). Time off must at least be equal to time on.

 

[FranARG]

I would go a little bit higher with the clomid..

 

[1976pianoman]

I just ordered it. Got CLOMIPHENE CITRATE 50MG x 40ct . So I will be 2 pills shy of a 100/100/50/50 PCT. So I will end 2 days early. I don't think that will be problem.

 

[liftin4fun]

Sounds good. Once your done get lab work and see how high your test levels got back to.

 

[1976pianoman]

Then remember, 'time on' = cycle + pct + 2nd pct (in your case). Time off must at least be equal to time on.

I just caught this. I'm glad I re-read the post and saw it.

I thought I could start another cycle immediately after PCT, cause I thought PCT was considered "time off". This means I need another month before I start up again. Shucks, but okay.

 

[1976pianoman]

Just how critical is it that a product like HCGenerate be added to a PCT? I understand how El Hefe feels, and appreciate his input - but does everybody agree that HCGenerate is absolutely necessary? Over at steroid.com forums, the veteran AAS guys with their beginner cycle stickies never mention it.

 

[El Hefe]

It's not a must, but it helps. Really, most people try to incorporate real HCG into their cycle and the beginning of pct.

HCGen is sometimes used in addition to, or in some instances, instead of HCG.

I start HCGen halfway through my cycle to keep my nuts functioning. Sometimes, they've already shrunk mid cycle and HCGen brings them back. I then continue it through PCT.

But no, it's not a must. But one should address the need to enter pct with their nuts functioning. That way your pct will be easier and more productive.

 

[El Hefe]

Also, time off is critical especially if you've had trouble recovering.

If I did an 8 week cycle and a 4 week pct with recovery problems, I would probably stay off longer than the standard 12 weeks. I might weight 16 weeks.

 

[El Hefe]

I just ordered it. Got CLOMIPHENE CITRATE 50MG x 40ct . So I will be 2 pills shy of a 100/100/50/50 PCT. So I will end 2 days early. I don't think that will be problem.

With respect to those who use high dose clomid - I don't believe 100 mg is necessary. Often makes guys feel like emotional bitches. Maybe try 100 mg for the first few days.

There is good data that 25 mg often raises Test 50-200% with little to no sides. And if one tapers down slowly, they'll often keep a slightly elevated test level for months or longer.

 

[Resolve]

I just caught this. I'm glad I re-read the post and saw it.

I thought I could start another cycle immediately after PCT, cause I thought PCT was considered "time off". This means I need another month before I start up again. Shucks, but okay.

That's still a very short period time to run two cycles in.

You're not recovered from your first endeavor yet, and it would definitely be a good idea to give yourself additional time after this '2nd PCT' for your body to reacclimate to normal hormone levels.

Waiting just one month and then diving back in with another cycle when you haven't figured out how to get yourself back to normal is not a good idea.

That being said, you could get by without HCgenerate, there are plenty of cheaper effective options out there.

 

[1976pianoman]

That being said, you could get by without HCgenerate, there are plenty of cheaper effective options out there.

That is actually the problem right now - money. Next cycle I will plan better and be sure to add HCGenerate to my PCT. I've got the Clomid coming, but spending $60 + shipping right at the moment is not going to happen - so HCGgenerate is not a possibility. I could however, afford something in the $20-$30 range if there is such a thing. Any suggestions?Although, come think of it, it is already the 22nd, I will have money to spend at the end of the month. I just may wait and get HCGenerate after all. I'm amazed at how incredible everybody is saying it is on other review sites.

 

[Resolve]

That is actually the problem right now - money. Next cycle I will plan better and be sure to add HCGenerate to my PCT. I've got the Clomid coming, but spending $60 + shipping right at the moment is not going to happen - so HCGgenerate is not a possibility. I could however, afford something in the $20-$30 range if there is such a thing. Any suggestions?Although, come think of it, it is already the 22nd, I will have money to spend at the end of the month. I just may wait and get HCGenerate after all. I'm amazed at how incredible everybody is saying it is on other review sites.

Sure. Cheap Test boosting options:

DAA for $16 http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/omega-sports/alpha-series-daa-100-grams.html (this is best when run with an AI)

Erase for $30 http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/pesupplments/erase-90-caps.html (a decent otc AI for the price)

Endosurge Turbo BOGO for $40 http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/bulk-performance-solutions/endosurge-turbo-180-capsules.html (at $20 a bottle, this covers a lot of the bases needed to enhance natural test production)

- If you can only do one of these, I'd recommend the Endosurge or the Erase. DAA by itself is ok, but is best IMO when run with an AI and with antioxidant support.

 

[1976pianoman]

Okay great. I just ordered Erase. So my 2nd PCT will be Clomid + Erase, which I'm hoping will get me back in order. Should I use the Erase per the instructions on the bottle?

 

[OnionKnight]

ok bud dnt take this the wrong way here. but have you gotten bloodwork done to show youre actually shutdown? because it seems more like youre lacking the mental aspect needed to cycle gear correctly. i have a feeling you just think youre shutdown because its very unlikely that epistane for 4 weeks would shut anyone down.

and if im right and you run an actual test cycle, then youll find out what shutdown really feels like

hcgen is just a glorified overpriced test booster. look at the ingredients and ask yourself, what are you really paying $60+ for? fadogia, fenugreek, and trib? thats not hcg

 

[murk01]

ok bud dnt take this the wrong way here. but have you gotten bloodwork done to show youre actually shutdown? because it seems more like youre lacking the mental aspect needed to cycle gear correctly. i have a feeling you just think youre shutdown because its very unlikely that epistane for 4 weeks would shut anyone down.

and if im right and you run an actual test cycle, then youll find out what shutdown really feels like

hcgen is just a glorified overpriced test booster. look at the ingredients and ask yourself, what are you really paying $60+ for? fadogia, fenugreek, and trib? thats not hcg

^^im with this guy. i would even bumb up the clomid first day or 2.
u might only need clomid. test boosters are really hormone boosters. use what u got. rc clomid is not as good as scribed.

here a question for the team... does running test base with a ph prevent or reduce the shutdown. i though it was more just as test support while on cycle.

i never bothered with test base

 

[murk01]

and porn and beating off help me recoup from a shut down O
really

 

[OnionKnight]

its a support. if anything, adding another exo hormone will be even more suppressive. the test or dht bases are primarily ment to deal with lethargy

 

[1976pianoman]

ok bud dnt take this the wrong way here. but have you gotten bloodwork done to show youre actually shutdown? because it seems more like youre lacking the mental aspect needed to cycle gear correctly. i have a feeling you just think youre shutdown because its very unlikely that epistane for 4 weeks would shut anyone down.

and if im right and you run an actual test cycle, then youll find out what shutdown really feels like

hcgen is just a glorified overpriced test booster. look at the ingredients and ask yourself, what are you really paying $60+ for? fadogia, fenugreek, and trib? thats not hcg

Maybe being on finasteride had some contributing factors to my shutdown.

I know I'm shut down because my libido is completely gone. I'm very in touch with my body as far as my sex drive does. If I don't have sex, I have to jerk off at least once every two days. It's as common a thing for me as eating and breathing. Yet now, I have not even thought about sex for many weeks. It's actually quite nice - it's a freedom I have never had before. Yet clearly, it indicates a shut down.

I am not bothered by what you said, but I respectfully disagree about the mental thing. I am one tough SOB. I'm a recovering addict/alcoholic. The stuff I have put my body through - the withdrawals mostly, were horrific. I can handle quite a bit. 15 years of abuse toughened me up. I know epi is mild for some, but I have read reviews of others having to put it down because of similar problems. In fact, there was another post here on this site recently from another guy experiencing something similar from an epi cycle. My only assumption can be that it effects us all differently.

 

[1976pianoman]

BTW - the epi sides were in fact manageable at 40mg. I just felt that the problems I was experiencing creatively as a musician were not worth the minor gains I was making. The lethargy was really effecting me at the piano in a strange way that maybe not all of you would understand. Heck, I didn't even understand it. I never would have thought there was a connection between test levels and my music. I'm sure if I had a square 9-5 job doing anything else, then it would not have been a problem. I am willing to take on some terrible sides, but only if the gains are considerable. I'm even willing to curb my music for a few months if I have to - but only if I'm making some serious progress with my cycle.

 

[OnionKnight]

is that your only indication of shutdown? because there are reports of finastride killing male libido

btw i aologize if i insulted you earlier. but as an ex addict, im sure youre aware of your past impulsive personality because that is the root of addiction. dont let it lead you into the steroid scene. i only say this because you mentioned planning another cycle a month after pct

 

[1976pianoman]

is that your only indication of shutdown? because there are reports of finastride killing male libido

btw i aologize if i insulted you earlier. but as an ex addict, im sure youre aware of your past impulsive personality because that is the root of addiction. dont let it lead you into the steroid scene. i only say this because you mentioned planning another cycle a month after pct

Yes, that is my barometer. Yet Finasteride never was a problem for me. I have been taking it for years. No change in libido. Yet possibly because I was already on Fina, the epi effected me more in that department. It's a mystery. I'm not taking the fina any more until I get my mojo back.

Yes, I see how that cycle timing thing looked, but that was simply a mistake in my ongoing steroid education. Having to learn about this stuff in the underground scene has been precarious at best. Lot's of "duh" Homer Simpson moments. I will absolutely not cycle again for many months. Yes, impulsivity can be a problem in other aspects of my life, food mostly! So far it hasn't been a problem in this realm. I will be careful. Thank you.

 

[murk01]

thats the same prob i had my last cycle. im also expecting it this time around.
i was able to get an erection but had no drive. sex was more like a chore.
i did sd 10/20/30/40....pct was
daa || clomid || erase
i dont think its low test or high estro, might have something to do with prolactin. im not fukin with daa this time around. i think daa was the culprite. i did a natty daa and erase prior. daa has a bad effect on me for some reason.
this pct is going to be
clomid + erase + generic natty
cycle is.

sd 15/15/15/0/0/0
epi 0/0/0/15/30/30

any way took me longer to recover prolly 3-4 months including pct to really feel normal.
keep ur cals and good fats high for a little while

 

[1976pianoman]

Also, maybe going immediately into ketosis during PCT might not be a good idea. That's what I did.

 

[murk01]

Also, maybe going immediately into ketosis during PCT might not be a good idea? That's what I did. In fact, I'm still in keto right now.

i did the same thing. felt to bloated after the cycle. i dont know if that has anything to do with it though. get ur levels check if ur really conserned. but sometimes it just takes longer

 

[El Hefe]

its a support. if anything, adding another exo hormone will be even more suppressive. the test or dht bases are primarily ment to deal with lethargy

This ^^. Exo hormones will shut you down. Test base does help with lethargy but also sex drive.

 

[El Hefe]

hcgen is just a glorified overpriced test booster. look at the ingredients and ask yourself, what are you really paying $60+ for? fadogia, fenugreek, and trib? thats not hcg

Yes, HCGen is overpriced. And I'm not much of a supp guy. I dont respond to 90+% of them. In fact, I think most are crap and I hate they way they get whored out on so many boards. So I'm not that guy. Also, there are very likely superior test boosters to HCGen. I think DAA and many other boosters are fine in PCT.

I use HCGen for my nuts. That's its only fit in this program. I use it half way through cycle when my nuts start to shrink. Nuts plump up again, loads increase, etc. Is clomid better, yes. But clomid doesn't work during cycle. So it's good to extend the use of HCGen to and through PCT.

Not only is it expensive, but its out of stock every other month. So if you want it for a cycle or pct, better buy in advance.

 

[caz1238]

ive had some problems with DAA aswell. it seemed more difficult to get it going, but my functioning has returned to normal. does DAA raise prolactin?

 

[1976pianoman]

I've ordered PES Erase and I'm trying to understand exactly what it is. It's an AI? That is news to me. Maybe someone here could explain in layman's terms what androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione is? Thanks!

I heard a guy say on one forum that this products decreases libido which is not what I wanted to hear. Maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

 

[OnionKnight]

androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione = armistane. its a suicide inhibitor meaning it irreversibly binds to the aromataze receptor to prevent androgens from being converted to estrogens. armistane and formestane are the two most popular otc aromatase inhibitors

when you tank your estrogen levels, your libido crashes with it. 6bromo was real good at doing this. erase, not so much unless you overdose it. and youll know if your dose is too high. research ai's are real good at crashing libido

 

[1976pianoman]

So it's like aromasin. Got it. Thanks.

 

[El Hefe]

Impulsive? Really?


I guess you are. You said money was a concern. Someone mentions Erase and 45 minutes later you buy it. Then you ask what it is.

There's a lot to learn. So take your time digesting all if this info. Could be part of the problem.

 

[OnionKnight]

^^^ lol

 

[1976pianoman]

Ha. Very funny bro. Actually, I have heard quite a bit of good in regard to PES Erase over the last many months.

I didn't hesitate to place the order and learn afterwards - it takes a good week or two for shipping, and I'd rather not prolong this PCT.

 

[murk01]

ive had some problems with DAA aswell. it seemed more difficult to get it going, but my functioning has returned to normal. does DAA raise prolactin?

for mr . i think it did. my biggest prob was getting a good nite sleep. daa had me up everyten minutes. i had to dose first thing in the am. any later i wouldnt be able to sleep that night

 

[1976pianoman]

I wanted to report that after one week of taking 3 PES Erase capsules per day, I am back to normal. My Clomid never arrived so it appears I'm going to have to find another source. But it seems I didn't need it this time cause Erase did the trick. I'm going to continue Erase for 30 days.

I'm still a bit confused. I understand this product is an OTC AI. So hypothetically, I could have used Aromasin instead and gotten the same positive result, if not better? If that is the case why are many people advising Clomid+Erase instead of Clomid+Aromasin for PCT?

 

[El Hefe]

In this case, an OTC AI was perfect for you. Erase is also slightly anabolic which gives a nice boost.

Aro, Adex, Letro are stronger, but that can be dangerous or at least counterproductive when dosed too high. Generally the stronger AI's are good to use on cycle when controlling estrogen is more difficult because you keep fueling the furnace.

OTC AI's are better (IMO) during pct.