Question regarding low test levels and adderall after PCT...
03-01-2012 08:44 PM
Question regarding low test levels and adderall after PCT...
Okay, this is detailed... so bare with me. Wanted to give you the whole scope so you can get a better idea of what's going on.
Age: 26, this was second cycle, norm Test levels before this cycle were ~700
Okay, so in Q1 of 2011 I ran an cycle consisting of H-Drol/Test... Hdrol Kick Start/Test 10 week/HCG E4D. For PCT I used Torem and TRS by PP. Great cycle, gained 20, retained about 15, leveled off with norm test levels and estro was within bounds.
-1 Month later during finals, I decided to start Adderall.... nothing crazy, 20mg XR.... I'm ADHD and have been dealing with it by means of Taurine, Glut, Ginko over the years... but I was taking a heavy load in my major.... I kept up my diet as well as I had the means to considering $$ and time, trying to eat clean 30/40/30 ish... About June I realized I had lost a significant amount of weight and was feeling fatique, figured it was probably from the adderall, cardio, late nights, but decided to get bloodwork anyways.... Well, my test levels were lower than I would've liked, at Serum 415, Estro 10... (LH 1.2)
So I decided to kick the addy over the summer, and in July did a 3 week of Clomid to bring levels back up... 2 weeks after finishing test was at TEST Serum was 995, Estro was 29 (LH 3.9)... I felt normal again. Put my weight back on, mostly water saturation, but nonetheless... felt good.
During Fall Semester, another heavy load. So... I decided to start up adderall again, keeping the doses to 5mg x2-3/day. I ran the addy until this past January keeping most of my gains, working out hard. I felt like 15mg a day was doing well until it started curbing my appetite at the end of Q4 2011... and my libido started to come down a bit. So I tapered off and said f$uck caffeine or any other stims for now... It's not worth the loss of my sex drive.
Went to go get blood work last week... Test levels at 414, Estro 10... (LH is 1.5) Almost exactly what it was One year ago...
Not exactly satisfied with those numbers at 26 considering I've been around 700 for the past 5 years...
Question #1: I have 36 Clomid 50mg... Tempting to run a spaced out 12 week clomid cycle 25mg/day for 6 then taper off 25mg for 6 EOD, while adding exemestane EOD in on the tail end of the taper....? Should I? Or... should I look at another alternative such as DAA, Animal Stak, Activate Extreme, Etc... I know it's nothing to do with Leydig damage, this is purely lack of signalling, so assuming this... I should be able to get my numbers back up correct? I just need to keep them from dropping again!
Im doing everything in my power to get those levels up... Squats, DL's, Cold Showers, Strict Diet, 8 hours of Sleep, ZMA, Sex once a day...
I've been doing some reading and my thinking is that chronic use of Amphetamines have a possibility to supress LH siginaling? Anyone ever heard of this?
Any input would be great...
03-05-2012 09:04 PM
I happened to be looking into this just last week. Iíve been on Adderall for like 7 years on and off depending on school workload. Amphetamines are a seriously dirty and unpredictable class of drugs, as you probably know, so I wouldnít be surprised if the Adderall is to blame for your lowered Test. Iím going in for blood work this Friday and Iíll share the results if youíre interested. Iíve been taking Adderall pretty consistently for the past 5 months at 60mg ED. The only problem is that it will be my first hormone test so I donít have anything to compare it to - no pre-Adderall levels. I guess my doctor will tell me what the ďnormalĒ range is, where I should be. Also, I just stopped taking PES Erase a couple days ago. Do you think its effect on my hormones will have worn off by Fri (about a week after last Erase dose)?
Anyway, I looked around and found some info you might find useful. I posted it below. BTW I was wondering if you have ever done a cycle on Adderall. I was planning on running my first cycle starting sometime soon. I was going to do a cutting/recomp cycle with Helladrol, Katanadrol, Transaderm. But something about mixing a hepatoxic drug that might effect blood pressure with Adderall bothers me so Iím thinking of saving the Hella for another time and just doing the Katana/Trans. If you have any experience, Iíd appreciate your input. Alright Iíll shut up now. The links are below.
Apparently I cant post links yet. Google "The role of cyclic AMP production, calcium channel activation and enzyme activities in the inhibition of testosterone secretion by amphetamine" The first 1 and 2 results will give you a link to the PDF. Check it out. It has a lot of interesting info about amphetamine's effect on test, pregnenolone, DHEA, LH, etc.
Effects of amphetamine on steroidogenesis in MA-10 mouse Leydig tumor cells
Amphetamine influences plasma and testicular testosterone levels. However, there is no evidence that amphetamine can directly influence Leydig cell functions. In the present study, a MA-10 mouse Leydig tumor cell line was used to determine whether and how amphetamine affected Leydig cell steroidogenesis. MA-10 cells were treated with different concentrations of amphetamine without or with human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and/or enzyme precursors over different time durations. Steroid production, enzyme activities and StAR protein expression were determined. Amphetamine alone had no any effect on MA-10 cell steroidogenesis. However, amphetamine (10−11M and 10−10M) significantly enhanced hCG-treated progesterone production at 3 hr in MA-10 cells (p < 0.05). Furthermore, amphetamine significantly induced more progesterone production upon treatment with 22R-hydroxycholesterol (p < 0.05), a precursor of P450 side-chain cleavage enzyme (P450scc). However, amphetamine did not induce more progesterone production when treated with pregnenolone (p > 0.05), a precursor of 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. In addition, the expressions of StAR protein and P450scc enzyme were not significantly different between hCG alone and hCG plus amphetamine treatment in MA-10 cells (p > 0.05). These results suggested that amphetamine enhanced hCG-induced progesterone production in MA-10 cells by increasing P450scc activity without influencng StAR protein and P450scc enzyme expression or 3β-HSD enzyme activity.
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