Strict OTC pct for first hdrol

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    Strict OTC pct for first hdrol


    I want to stay OTC and generated the following based on a lot of reading and what I currently find in stock.

    Cycle: (1st run with a ph) hdrol 50 for 4 weeks

    Pct: inhibit e 2/2/2/1
    Bioforge: 3/3/3/3 (haven't found best dosage in my reading)
    Lean xtreme: 0/0/4/4/4/3/3/3

    Im not looking to increase hdrol for a first run and do to personal reasons don't want to run nolva. Or a research Chem.. Preload with cyc assist with fish oil and orange triad throughout. Feedback appreciated. 27 yo male 186 at 14% body fat.

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    Best of luck to you with recovery and keeping any gains. I wouldn't go without a SERM, despite your "personal reasons". Nolva, Clomid, Torem are all fine options and easy to procure.

    I have respect for your personal reasons as to why you want to keep your PCT to OTC. I am not here to bash your choice. But, speaking from personal experience, H-Drol can shut down endogenous testosterone production, even at 50mg for four weeks. Don't under estimate its ability to do so and don't get caught up in the "it's a mild PH" hype either. That crap usually spews from people who have never done proper blood panels pre, intra, and post cycle. Rather they claim they just "feel fine".
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    SERM is always needed imo, however if you decide an OTC PCT our TRS is the best option imo.

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    I should clarify that I firmly believe OTC PCT products have their place, and that place is in conjunction with a SERM. My point is that I would never rely on the them soley for purposes of PCT.
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    no serm= you lose your gains.... even IF your dikc works again...

    at the very least, dont use ATD...

    TRS might help along with DAA and low dose serm at least 10 mg nolva for 4 weeks
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversupra81 View Post
    I want to stay OTC and generated the following based on a lot of reading and what I currently find in stock.

    Cycle: (1st run with a ph) hdrol 50 for 4 weeks

    Pct: inhibit e 2/2/2/1
    Bioforge: 3/3/3/3 (haven't found best dosage in my reading)
    Lean xtreme: 0/0/4/4/4/3/3/3

    Im not looking to increase hdrol for a first run and do to personal reasons don't want to run nolva. Or a research Chem.. Preload with cyc assist with fish oil and orange triad throughout. Feedback appreciated. 27 yo male 186 at 14% body fat.
    Can you explain why you are dosing H-drol so low and reason behind not using a SERM?
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    Thanks for the responses. I'm dozing low because it's my first run with a ph. I would rather start small then go larger later on. I would like to keep it OTC to eliminate any chance of legality issues and not knowing exactly what I'm ingesting. If possible I'd like to keep thread geared towards OTC and not defending my reasons as to avoiding a serm. I don't have a problem gaining/losing weight but would definitely like to gain strength quicker, who wouldn't? Hopefully that suffices as to the reasons behind my decisions.
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    Well you picked the wrong PH and wrong dosing for strength gains. Def not going to gain much with 50mg for 4 weeks.

    Read the past logs and you'll see what I mean. Research more on what you are "ingesting". H-drol is more toxic than a SERM - which its benefits have been proven for years.
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    at 50 for 4 weeks i guess it'd be ok for otc pct....i don't roll without a serm, but i also wouldnt run h drol for only 4 weeks at that dose....just opinion

    not a fan of atd, go with something like forma stonzol or erase imo
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    Gotcha, I'm more speaking to strength logs Ive read with modest gains. I'm not expecting huge jumps, I'm more trying to get the most out of workouts. Feel free to critique as needed. Again I'm new to ph so feel free to rip apart my proposed cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversupra81 View Post
    I would like to keep it OTC to eliminate any chance of legality issues and not knowing exactly what I'm ingesting.
    Possession of a research grade SERM is not illegal. There are plenty of reliable research chemical sites that many of us trust and have had excellent success with their products. A little researching should turn up information and give you more comfort about the company's reputation.

    If you choose the illegal route in the means of a pharmaceutical grade SERM, possession of a pharma grade SERM, while illegal, is not going to land you any hard time, provided the amounts you obtain are personal in nature. If you were to get caught by customs, your package will most likely be confiscated and life would continue.

    I understand and respect your concern, both ways, but many people make a bigger issue about obtaining and using a SERM than is really necessary. Research grade, or pharma grade, there are lots of reliable options available to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silversupra81 View Post
    If possible I'd like to keep thread geared towards OTC and not defending my reasons as to avoiding a serm.
    Understood, but many people who know better and have experience with PH/DS/AAS are going to try to steer you in the right direction and that direction is to use a SERM. No one is passing judgment; rather everyone would like to see you run a safe and successful cycle while maintaining your gains and achieving homestasis in the quickest manner possible.

    Did you overlook my post earlier where I indicated that even at 50mg, H-Drol can be very suppressive? Again, I speak from personal experience supported by blood work. Testosterone suppression is real. In almost all instances (there are some rare exceptions), introducing an exogenous form will suppress natural production. Simply put, that is just how it works.

    I would like to add one more point. There is evidence that some SERMs are also beneficial in balancing lipid levels and returning HDL to a normal level. Lipid normalization is just as important as normalizing your hormone and liver profiles. Just one more reason to use a SERM.

    In summary, and many will agree, a SERM at moderate dosing + OTC PCT products = safe and effective PCT. However, if I were only to rely on one over the other, I would use a SERM and ditch the OTC stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post








    I would like to add one more point. There is evidence that some SERMs are also beneficial in balancing lipid levels and returning HDL to a normal level. Lipid normalization is just as important as normalizing your hormone and liver profiles. Just one more reason to use a SERM.
    The newer Toremifene and Raloxifene

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    Possession of a research grade SERM is not illegal. There are plenty of reliable research chemical sites that many of us trust and have had excellent success with their products. A little researching should turn up information and give you more comfort about the company's reputation.

    If you choose the illegal route in the means of a pharmaceutical grade SERM, possession of a pharma grade SERM, while illegal, is not going to land you any hard time, provided the amounts you obtain are personal in nature. If you were to get caught by customs, your package will most likely be confiscated and life would continue.

    I understand and respect your concern, both ways, but many people make a bigger issue about obtaining and using a SERM than is really necessary. Research grade, or pharma grade, there are lots of reliable options available to you.



    Understood, but many people who know better and have experience with PH/DS/AAS are going to try to steer you in the right direction and that direction is to use a SERM. No one is passing judgment; rather everyone would like to see you run a safe and successful cycle while maintaining your gains and achieving homestasis in the quickest manner possible.

    Did you overlook my post earlier where I indicated that even at 50mg, H-Drol can be very suppressive? Again, I speak from personal experience supported by blood work. Testosterone suppression is real. In almost all instances (there are some rare exceptions), introducing an exogenous form will suppress natural production. Simply put, that is just how it works.

    I would like to add one more point. There is evidence that some SERMs are also beneficial in balancing lipid levels and returning HDL to a normal level. Lipid normalization is just as important as normalizing your hormone and liver profiles. Just one more reason to use a SERM.

    In summary, and many will agree, a SERM at moderate dosing + OTC PCT products = safe and effective PCT. However, if I were only to rely on one over the other, I would use a SERM and ditch the OTC stuff.
    nice post, reps for sure
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    Thanks for the opinions. Going to research it more, I've seen a couple places, ag for example... Pm me trusted places if that's allowed. Like I said first run so want to see how my body adapts and go from there. Looks like either route I should definitely have a serm on hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    no serm= you lose your gains.... even IF your dikc works again...

    at the very least, dont use ATD...

    TRS might help along with DAA and low dose serm at least 10 mg nolva for 4 weeks
    Four weeks, he shouldn't be too bad off without a SERM, imo. Anything over 4 weeks a SERM should be used. However, each individual is different and who knows, maybe he'll be shutdown completely at 4 weeks.

    OP, get bloodwork done, then you'll know for sure how you're doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Four weeks, he shouldn't be too bad off without a SERM, imo. Anything over 4 weeks a SERM should be used. However, each individual is different and who knows, maybe he'll be shutdown completely at 4 weeks.

    OP, get bloodwork done, then you'll know for sure how you're doing.
    It is not wise to just assume he shouldn't be "too bad off". At mid third week of a 50/50/75, my blood work showed serum test levels at 43. 43...that is near complete suppression.

    This is not to suggest that this user will experience the same level of suppression, but it would be foolish to assume that it is not a possibility. As you mentioned, intra cycle blood work would provide some insight, but that doesn't mean that shut down can't occur in week four of a four week cycle.

    That said, the safest way to recovery is a comprehensive PCT that includes both OTC products and a SERM. However, I will say it again, in that if I were limited to one choice of OTC or a SERM as monotherapy for PCT, I would select the SERM every single time. But I still maintain that OTC products can support the SERM in a lot of ways and prove to be helpful in mitigating side effects and normalizing hormone levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Four weeks, he shouldn't be too bad off without a SERM, imo. Anything over 4 weeks a SERM should be used. However, each individual is different and who knows, maybe he'll be shutdown completely at 4 weeks.

    OP, get bloodwork done, then you'll know for sure how you're doing.
    not sure if ur just trying to pick out my posts to confront me..... but this is wrong...

    hdrol is suppressive and if your gunna run hdrol youll need a serm

    serm=20$ best investment you can make


    MAYBE op wont be shut down as bad as running 75 for 6 weeks, but MAYBE he will be shut down just as bad...

    people are straight crazy sometimes.......
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    I would add at Sustain Alpha and TCF-1, both otc, and backed up with a history of good feedback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    It is not wise to just assume he shouldn't be "too bad off". At mid third week of a 50/50/75, my blood work showed serum test levels at 43. 43...that is near complete suppression.

    This is not to suggest that this user will experience the same level of suppression, but it would be foolish to assume that it is not a possibility. As you mentioned, intra cycle blood work would provide some insight, but that doesn't mean that shut down can't occur in week four of a four week cycle.

    That said, the safest way to recovery is a comprehensive PCT that includes both OTC products and a SERM. However, I will say it again, in that if I were limited to one choice of OTC or a SERM as monotherapy for PCT, I would select the SERM every single time. But I still maintain that OTC products can support the SERM in a lot of ways and prove to be helpful in mitigating side effects and normalizing hormone levels.
    I'm wondering if you read the rest of my post where I said that every individual is different and he might be completely shut down


    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    not sure if ur just trying to pick out my posts to confront me..... but this is wrong...

    hdrol is suppressive and if your gunna run hdrol youll need a serm

    serm=20$ best investment you can make


    MAYBE op wont be shut down as bad as running 75 for 6 weeks, but MAYBE he will be shut down just as bad...

    people are straight crazy sometimes.......
    I know I said that! lol

    I hate you guys... lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    I'm wondering if you read the rest of my post where I said that every individual is different and he might be completely shut down
    I did. But I also read where you suggested he might not be "too bad off". Both scenarios are possible. However, without knowing whether a user is going to experience significant suppression, it is not the right decision or guidance to assume the user "might" be OK.

    Given the inherent risk associated with any of these compounds, it is always wise to err on the side of caution and, if any assumption is to be made, that assumption should be that testosterone production will be significantly suppressed. Not the other way around.

    BBG, your a smart dude. You know a SERM is the right choice and can be enhanced with your PP OTC products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    I did. But I also read where you suggested he might not be "too bad off". Both scenarios are possible. However, without knowing whether a user is going to experience significant suppression, it is not the right decision or guidance to assume the user "might" be OK.
    That's also why I told him to get blood work so he knows if he's ok or not

    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    Given the inherent risk associated with any of these compounds, it is always wise to err on the side of caution and, if any assumption is to be made, that assumption should be that testosterone production will be significantly suppressed. Not the other way around.
    True.


    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    BBG, your a smart dude. You know a SERM is the right choice and can be enhanced with your PP OTC products.
    Don't forget handsome!

    Alright my butt hurt is gone now, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversupra81 View Post
    I want to stay OTC and generated the following based on a lot of reading and what I currently find in stock.

    Cycle: (1st run with a ph) hdrol 50 for 4 weeks

    Pct: inhibit e 2/2/2/1
    Bioforge: 3/3/3/3 (haven't found best dosage in my reading)
    Lean xtreme: 0/0/4/4/4/3/3/3

    Im not looking to increase hdrol for a first run and do to personal reasons don't want to run nolva. Or a research Chem.. Preload with cyc assist with fish oil and orange triad throughout. Feedback appreciated. 27 yo male 186 at 14% body fat.
    Atd has its place in fat loss regimes, but IMO, is not acceptable in PCT senarios. pls listen to the community, they are here to help you. SERM protocal is the safe way to go, because you need that kick start to your HPTA. all that otc stuff is good but its like filling up a gas tank to a vehicle that has no battery life. so pls kick start your battery(hpta) with a proven methed: SERM protocal. and then u can gas up all you like on otc stuff until your next cycle. good luck. you will be fine.
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    Thanks fellas, regarding blood work. I was going to wait until the end pct to get this done. Just from a common sense stand point is that when I should have it done? Or wait longer? My question is basically how long should it take me to reach homeostasis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silversupra81 View Post
    Thanks fellas, regarding blood work. I was going to wait until the end pct to get this done. Just from a common sense stand point is that when I should have it done? Or wait longer? My question is basically how long should it take me to reach homeostasis?
    You need a baseline blood test before you start for comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolmack View Post
    I did. But I also read where you suggested he might not be "too bad off". Both scenarios are possible. However, without knowing whether a user is going to experience significant suppression, it is not the right decision or guidance to assume the user "might" be OK.

    Given the inherent risk associated with any of these compounds, it is always wise to err on the side of caution and, if any assumption is to be made, that assumption should be that testosterone production will be significantly suppressed. Not the other way around.

    BBG, your a smart dude. You know a SERM is the right choice and can be enhanced with your PP OTC products.
    That's why everyone should be getting blood work done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm View Post
    That's why everyone should be getting blood work done.
    How often do you think one should get bloodwork done a year? Especially running at least 2 cycles a year?
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    Mate, most of these responses are BS. You don't need a SERM. Halodrol is weak as piss. Stick with your OTC regime and you will be fine. Enjoy your first PH! Make sure you take before and after photos and log your results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzLightyear View Post
    Mate, most of these responses are BS. You don't need a SERM. Halodrol is weak as piss. Stick with your OTC regime and you will be fine. Enjoy your first PH! Make sure you take before and after photos and log your results.
    Don't listen to this, keep an AI like arimidex or letrozole on hand in case of gyno. Everyone reacts differently and this isn't something to be taken lightly.

    Theres a reason so many OTC PH's get banned, not because there have been studies done to prove if they are safe, but because they ARE steroids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzLightyear View Post
    Mate, most of these responses are BS. You don't need a SERM. Halodrol is weak as piss. Stick with your OTC regime and you will be fine. Enjoy your first PH! Make sure you take before and after photos and log your results.
    It is blatantly obvious you don't know what you're talking about. "Weak as piss" eh?

    It is unfortunate if anyone were to take your advice. It is when people listen to advice from people like you that results in endocrine issues and loss of all gains made on cycle. New users who are relcutant to use a SERM are always looking for people like you to give them "approval"..."approval" that using an OTC for a suppressive compound is "just fine", yet lack any justification or evidence to support your opinion. Yes, your opinion, because without anything to support your view, it is nothing more than that.

    You apparently didn't see my post, or the hundreds of other posts throughout various forums, that show Halodrol and its respective clones can be quite suppressive. The evidence is out there, the blood tests don't lie; you do. Either that, or you have no clue and you're completely oblivious as to how steroids work. Probably a quite a bit of both.
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    My advice is do not waste the first cycle. You will never be able to gain like you will on cycle number 1. With 4 weeks of H-Drol at 50mg you are wasting your first chance for some major gains. Either bump the dose up to 75-100mg and run for 6 weeks or pick up some Epi and run 30+mg for 4 weeks. With either of those doses you will more than likely need a SERM and as others say it is cheaper than all the PCT products the various vendors sell and it works much better for recovery.

    I understand you wanting to be "safe", so either don't go to the darkside or do a cycle worth doing because you can't go back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver3CSRT8 View Post
    My advice is do not waste the first cycle. You will never be able to gain like you will on cycle number 1. With 4 weeks of H-Drol at 50mg you are wasting your first chance for some major gains. Either bump the dose up to 75-100mg and run for 6 weeks or pick up some Epi and run 30+mg for 4 weeks. With either of those doses you will more than likely need a SERM and as others say it is cheaper than all the PCT products the various vendors sell and it works much better for recovery.

    I understand you wanting to be "safe", so either don't go to the darkside or do a cycle worth doing because you can't go back.

    if he eats, hell gain just fine on hdrol for 4 weeks..

    nobody should ever run hdrol @100mg for 6 weeks for their first run...

    usually people running their first cycle gain like crazy because their body responds well to lower dosages... and then as cycles progress, so does dosage...

    OP, use a serm, get bloods, throw all that otc pct **** in there too, (maybe not atd) take pics and measurements, and EAT CLEAN
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzLightyear View Post
    Mate, most of these responses are BS. You don't need a SERM. Halodrol is weak as piss. Stick with your OTC regime and you will be fine. Enjoy your first PH! Make sure you take before and after photos and log your results.
    I lightly concur^

    I have done 5 weeks last 4 was upto 75mg, and only used recycle as a base for PCT. I kept my gains. I regret what could have been NOT going to 100 on the last week.. but ran out.

    Mind you I have a few SERMs on hand incase the rug was pulled from under me.

    Sooo how does something designed to keep the estro away from my glands going to help me keep my gains again? From what i read it might re-start my boys up (clom, not nolv, maybe torm). But Hdrol has a low chance of suppression, and at reccomended dose for 4 wks even lessens the chance.

    I Sure have read many Hdrol, halovar logs, even seen a CEL rep personally sugg a a PCT w/o a SERM for a 4 wk 50 mg cycle.

    its your choice, but if you do a 6wk and go upto 100mg then yes a SERM!
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    4wks of 50mg halo is a total waste. You wont see any gain til day 17-18 and they wont be that big. run it 6wks @75mg. Add DAA(3gs for 30days) & CEL PCT assist along to your pct.

    If you didnt already buy the inhibit E go with ERASE as it will also help with cortisol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzLightyear View Post
    Mate, most of these responses are BS. You don't need a SERM. Halodrol is weak as piss. Stick with your OTC regime and you will be fine. Enjoy your first PH! Make sure you take before and after photos and log your results.

    1. this person is right on one account, "you don't need a serm"
    if fact one dosn't need a serm for any cycle, not for "week as piss H-drol" or real TREN.
    2. with out a serm you will eventually recover and reach homeostasis, no matter the cycle.
    3. however keep this in mind: for a steriod/ph to work HPTA function must be interrupted for it to swell up in your system and allow the unatural state of flooding anabolics and androgens.
    4. therfore, no matter the steroid/ph, you will have some supression, oh and by the way just because one can get an errection doesn't mean you are not suppressed.
    5. otc pct is not effective at restarting the hpta feedback loop. otc pct is effective at working within a bodily system that is working at or near a balanced state
    6. kick starting hpta, seems to happen rather quick with serms, then otc pct is brought in to carry one though to homeostasis.
    7. my analogy from before: say the body is a vehicle. after a cycle of ph/ASS, the vehicle car battery is running low and the tank is empty. soo you take otc pct, boosters, AI's..etc, these act like gas to the vehicle. so essentally you have a vehicle whose gas tank is now full, but the battery is near dead. you could take a chance and keep turning the key and maybe it will 'click over'. or u can cheat a little and use a serm to jump start the battery. now all that gas(otc pct) in the tank can now power the vehicle to homeostatis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeshark00 View Post
    1. this person is right on one account, "you don't need a serm"
    if fact one dosn't need a serm for any cycle, not for "week as piss H-drol" or real TREN.
    2. with out a serm you will eventually recover and reach homeostasis, no matter the cycle.
    3. however keep this in mind: for a steriod/ph to work HPTA function must be interrupted for it to swell up in your system and allow the unatural state of flooding anabolics and androgens.
    4. therfore, no matter the steroid/ph, you will have some supression, oh and by the way just because one can get an errection doesn't mean you are not suppressed.
    5. otc pct is not effective at restarting the hpta feedback loop. otc pct is effective at working within a bodily system that is working at or near a balanced state
    6. kick starting hpta, seems to happen rather quick with serms, then otc pct is brought in to carry one though to homeostasis.
    7. my analogy from before: say the body is a vehicle. after a cycle of ph/ASS, the vehicle car battery is running low and the tank is empty. soo you take otc pct, boosters, AI's..etc, these act like gas to the vehicle. so essentally you have a vehicle whose gas tank is now full, but the battery is near dead. you could take a chance and keep turning the key and maybe it will 'click over'. or u can cheat a little and use a serm to jump start the battery. now all that gas(otc pct) in the tank can now power the vehicle to homeostatis.
    ^
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