Best PCT combination?

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    Question Best PCT combination?


    I am finishing a 5 month cycle of Test250/400, Tren Acetate, and Deca. I know I need Clomid and Nolvadex...but what else do I need to add with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeviousNet View Post
    I am finishing a 5 month cycle of Test250/400, Tren Acetate, and Deca. I know I need Clomid and Nolvadex...but what else do I need to add with this?
    The bulk of PCT should include each of the following products alongside your basic staples:

    * Testosterone Boosters (one product that increase Free Testosterone and Total Testosterone or a stack covering both areas)
    * Luteinizing Hormone Releaser
    * Cortisol Controller
    * Estrogen Antagonists/Aromatase Inhibitor

    Clomid and Nolvadex covers your Estrgen Antagonist/Aromatase Inhibitor. Note that one should never use just a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) like Clomid or Nolva for PCT because they do not address all the key issues required during PCT regarding the restarting of the HPTA, including but not limited to high cytokine levels, low testicular L-Carnitine levels, low leptin levels, low levels of certain minerals in the testes, etc. Not only that, they cause depression, and can also cause rebound gyno in a lot of users.

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    Rosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjbogner View Post
    Rosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
    I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).

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    i got gyno of 3weeks on dbol, its a lump about the size of a penny under my right nipple, i went to the doctors he sent me to the hospital to see a speicalist at the hospital he had a feel of it and said it should just go with in time, im no doctor but i cant see the lump jst going away. he put a huge needle in me which was the most painful thing ive done in my life and said he will have results for me in 2 weeks. Has any1 ever had theres just go away????? ( or smaller ) thanks,
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    Quote Originally Posted by viper23 View Post
    i got gyno of 3weeks on dbol, its a lump about the size of a penny under my right nipple, i went to the doctors he sent me to the hospital to see a speicalist at the hospital he had a feel of it and said it should just go with in time, im no doctor but i cant see the lump jst going away. he put a huge needle in me which was the most painful thing ive done in my life and said he will have results for me in 2 weeks. Has any1 ever had theres just go away????? ( or smaller ) thanks,
    No i haven't, Mine are still here but dont really bother me anymore. Most of the time if it really gets bad you just have to have out patient surgery and not lift chest for 2 weeks. Your insurance might cover most of the cost but it depends
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).

    ~Rosie~
    So I was wondering I have been looking for nolvadex and clomid and haveb came across nothing really other then it comes in prescription?? Is this the only way I can get either one? And also I'm wondering if you would recommend me taking a pct and anything else other then clomid or nolvadex for a winny cycle only? ( I have heard already that no one recommends winny cycle only)
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRoss View Post
    So I was wondering I have been looking for nolvadex and clomid and haveb came across nothing really other then it comes in prescription?? Is this the only way I can get either one? And also I'm wondering if you would recommend me taking a pct and anything else other then clomid or nolvadex for a winny cycle only? ( I have heard already that no one recommends winny cycle only)
    Depends whether you're male or female re recommendation on doing a Winni-only cycle - up to you, really.

    As far as using a SERM, if your cycle was less than six weeks, then you don't really need to use one, so if you can't get one and your cycle was less than that, you'll be ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    Depends whether you're male or female re recommendation on doing a Winni-only cycle - up to you, really.

    As far as using a SERM, if your cycle was less than six weeks, then you don't really need to use one, so if you can't get one and your cycle was less than that, you'll be ok.

    ~Rosie~

    Alright col thanks for the response. I'm a male so what dosage would u recommend I have heard some numbers already but just trying to find what would be the best not to little or to much? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjbogner View Post
    Rosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
    Yes, solid PCT

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm View Post
    Yes, solid PCT
    Even the arimidex?

    I wouldn't suggest you use an AI during PCT, if you do, start it at week 3 and taper off for 3-4 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRoss View Post
    Alright col thanks for the response. I'm a male so what dosage would u recommend I have heard some numbers already but just trying to find what would be the best not to little or to much? Thanks
    Dosage for what? Your cycle or the PCT? Either way, I am going to let the guys here direct you re this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Even the arimidex?

    I wouldn't suggest you use an AI during PCT, if you do, start it at week 3 and taper off for 3-4 weeks.
    Must have missed that, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    I would say that that would be adequate for PCT, yes (others may wish to chime in, though).

    ~Rosie~
    Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeatus101 View Post
    Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?
    Who said that? I think erase can work well around week 3 or 4 of PCT, and its a great supplement all around, but it won't work as a solo PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Even the arimidex?

    I wouldn't suggest you use an AI during PCT,.
    Why? An AI, such as Erase, reduces estrogen and increases testosterone. Because it inhibits the aromatase enzyme, your testosterone has nothing left to convert to besides dht, so a net increase in testosterone is seen as long as it is administered. Isn't that what PCT is trying to accomplish?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    Why? An AI, such as Erase, reduces estrogen and increases testosterone. Because it inhibits the aromatase enzyme, your testosterone has nothing left to convert to besides dht, so a net increase in testosterone is seen as long as it is administered. Isn't that what PCT is trying to accomplish?
    An increase in testosterone and a recovery during PCT is not the same thing. I can inject testosterone during PCT and have high test levels but it doesn't mean I'm recovered. That's not even the main reason people don't recommend it.

    AI's can do damage to lipid profiles and bone denisty/bone mineral density. Having less estrogen also causes libido loss. SERMs block estrogen where it needs to be blocked so as to avoid most of the bad side effects of lowering estrogen.

    PCT is a time when hormones need to be brought back to baseline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    An increase in testosterone and a recovery during PCT is not the same thing. I can inject testosterone during PCT and have high test levels but it doesn't mean I'm recovered. That's not even the main reason people don't recommend it.

    Having less estrogen also causes libido loss. SERMs block estrogen where it needs to be blocked so as to avoid most of the bad side effects of lowering estrogen.

    PCT is a time when hormones need to be brought back to baseline.
    If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.

    AI's can do damage to bone denisty/bone mineral density.
    Link?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.


    Link?
    There is no "link". Just read up on what estrogen does for bones.

    SERMs selectively activate/occupy certain receptors in certain parts of the body. They don't occupy bone estrogen receptors, they do occupy estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. This is why breast cancer patients don't have brittle bones when mega dosing SERMs.

    Why would you suggest someone stack an AI with a SERM if the SERM is already so horribly devastating their body?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    There is no "link". Just read up on what estrogen does for bones.

    SERMs selectively activate/occupy certain receptors in certain parts of the body. They don't occupy bone estrogen receptors, they do occupy estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. This is why breast cancer patients don't have brittle bones when mega dosing SERMs.
    If the AI is moderately dosed, I can assure you, it's not going to cause bones to deteriorate to any degree.
    Why would you suggest someone stack an AI with a SERM if the SERM is already so horribly devastating their body?
    For the same reason, you would suggest a SERM. You can never have a "perfect recovery combination." Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree. On one hand you need something powerfull enough to jumpstart your HPTA ,but on the other, you can't use a natural substance (something like DAA) by itself after a superdrol cycle because you won't recover fully.

    That's why you must use an AI and a SERM at a moderate dose, and once you feel recovered, let time take care of homeostasis; Because the body will heal itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    If the AI is moderately dosed, I can assure you, it's not going to cause bones to deteriorate to any degree.


    For the same reason, you would suggest a SERM. You can never have a "perfect recovery combination." Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree. On one hand you need something powerfull enough to jumpstart your HPTA ,but on the other, you can't use a natural substance (something like DAA) by itself after a superdrol cycle because you won't recover fully.

    That's why you must use an AI and a SERM at a moderate dose, and once you feel recovered, let time take care of homeostasis; Because the body will heal itself.
    If people want to use an AI, that's fine. I won't usually recommend it. And if it's formestane, gtfo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    If you don't think SERMs have negative side effects upon hormone profiles, you've never used one. SERMs act much like an AI, except they don't block aromatase. They block the ERalpha and ERbeta receptors. They can have some very unpredictable estrogenic activity that interferes with testosterone's effects and manipulates cholesterol values, lipids, lipoproteins, and blood concentrations of each. Each of which are negatively affected by the SERM.


    Link?
    This is not true - SERMs have an extremely beneficial effect on blood cholesterol levels because of their agonist action in the liver. Their agonist/antagonist action is various cell types is well known and definitely not unpredictable. Their only real negative side effect for men would be slightly increased risk of blood clots *if used longterm* (agonist in bone marrow), blurred vision (agonist in ocular cells) and aromatase upregulation. Using an AI along with a SERM should tackle the aromatase upregulation if tappered off correctly but for most people would probably just complicate things.
    AI only PCT is dangerous because it will mess up your already messed up cholesterol levels even more. Also if tapered off improperly even in conjunction with a SERM, it can lead to long lasting aromatase upregulation (estrogen rebound) which is something I'm facing now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmonkey View Post
    This is not true - SERMs have an extremely beneficial effect on blood cholesterol levels because of their agonist action in the liver. Their agonist/antagonist action is various cell types is well known and definitely not unpredictable. Their only real negative side effect for men would be slightly increased risk of blood clots *if used longterm* (agonist in bone marrow), blurred vision (agonist in ocular cells) and aromatase upregulation. Using an AI along with a SERM should tackle the aromatase upregulation if tappered off correctly but for most people would probably just complicate things.
    AI only PCT is dangerous because it will mess up your already messed up cholesterol levels even more. Also if tapered off improperly even in conjunction with a SERM, it can lead to long lasting aromatase upregulation (estrogen rebound) which is something I'm facing now.
    You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.

    But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..

    Effects of tamoxifen on lipid profile and coagulation parameters in male patients with pubertal gynecomastia.

    Novoa FJ, Boronat M, Carrillo A, Tapia M, Diaz-Cremades J, Chirino R.

    Department of Endocrinology, Hospital Universitario Insular, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. jnovoa@cicei.ulpgc.es

    BACKGROUND/AIM: The estrogenic actions of tamoxifen on lipid profiles and hemostasis have been extensively demonstrated in women. Due to limited experience with this drug in males, it is uncertain whether these effects are also present in men. The aim of our study was to assess the response of blood lipids, lipoproteins, and coagulation parameters in a group of men taking tamoxifen. METHODS: We studied 15 healthy boys with pubertal gynecomastia who were given 10 mg tamoxifen per day. Total testosterone, sex-hormone-binding globulin, estradiol, serum lipids, apolipoprotein B, apolipoprotein A-I, lipoprotein(a), fibrinogen, antithrombin III, von Willebrand factor, and markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis were determined at baseline and 1 and 3 months after beginning of the tamoxifen treatment. RESULTS: Total cholesterol and lipoprotein(a) showed moderate but significant decreases from baseline. Low-density lipoprotein and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations as well as triglyceride and apolipoprotein B levels became lower, but these changes were not statistically significant. Among clotting parameters, antithrombin III was reduced, and von Willebrand factor increased significantly. Markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis remained unchanged throughout the period of therapy. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of tamoxifen on blood lipids and hemostasis we found in this group of healthy young men were qualitatively similar, but lesser than those previously described in women.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.

    But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..
    And SERMS are selective, meaning they are agonists and antagonists depending on the ER receptor location it's acting upon.

    Granted the sides from a SERM are more harmful on women, but the sides are still present in men. And the SERMs that didn't make it past testing phase were likely very damaging to both men and women
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    Not to mention tamoxifene's er activity can cause tumors to form in the liver.

    Bottom line is, what I said above.."Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree"

    Also the other bottom line is..Many of you guys don't realize that Estrogen receptors, progesterone receptors, and androgen receptors, are present ALL THROUGHOUT THE BODY, even the liver. You'll even find er's in the prostate. Slash the idea in your brain that an androgen receptor is only present in the HPTA, or that an estrogen receptor is only present in breast tissues because that's what I used to think; and it is wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bry17 View Post
    You know, honestly, it depends on the mechanism that each serm or AI goes through. Letrozole has been studied to be on the safest side of the AI spectrum, while arimidex is on the harsher end. Just as Tamoxifene is on the safer side of the spectrum, whereas others such as raloxifene are on the more damaging side.

    But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..
    I think your scale is backwards... Letro has some of the most sides (lipids, gh/igf-1 level drops) while aromasin has the fewest.

    On the same note, tamox and clomid cause many more side effects than torem (and ralox I think).
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    I think your scale is backwards... Letro has some of the most sides (lipids, gh/igf-1 level drops) while aromasin has the fewest.

    On the same note, tamox and clomid cause many more side effects than torem (and ralox I think).
    Not according to this

    The boys in the T-treated group (12 boys) received T enanthate (1 mg/kg, im, every 4 wk, six times). The T- plus-letrozole-treated group (13 boys) received T enanthate (as above) and, in addition, an aromatase inhibitor, letrozole 2.5 mg, orally, once a day for 12 months

    Safety

    The concentrations of total cholesterol, low and high density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, transaminases, the leukocyte count, and the bone density were determined during the follow-up. In these safety parameters, no changes sufficient to indicate discontinuation of the treatment were observed in any of the boys. Letrozole was well tolerated; no side-effects were observed.
    Really guys, I know some of you may think i'm talking out my cornhole, but I'm not, I've researched this stuff pretty extensively, especially SARMs
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    I'm not sure where this is going. It should be clear that a SERM is better than an AI for PCT because instead of leaving an estrogen defecit in the system it acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist in pretty much the exact way you want it to (anagonist in breast and brain, agonist in liver and bone). With an AI you will lose the beneficial effects of estrogen/SERMs especially on liver and bone tissue. Only reason why I'd ever think of using one would be if aromatization or increased aromatase activity was a concern.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmonkey View Post
    I'm not sure where this is going. It should be clear that a SERM is better than an AI for PCT because instead of leaving an estrogen defecit in the system it acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist in pretty much the exact way you want it to (anagonist in breast and brain, agonist in liver and bone). With an AI you will lose the beneficial effects of estrogen/SERMs especially on liver and bone tissue. Only reason why I'd ever think of using one would be if aromatization or increased aromatase activity was a concern.
    OF course it is, that's NOT what I was discussing. A SERM is far more powerfull than an AI , that's a no-brainer. You clearly didn't read our discussion. I was arguing that a SERM is not side effect free and can't be part of a "perfect PCT" and that an AI should not be discluded in PCT like BBG suggested. That goes against all published science. SERMs and AI's target the only two pathways of which estrogen works, and gives you a great jumpstart into recovery when used together.
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    This topic has been argued over and over again for years. It always gets rehashed in some way, usually by those who "research" and become overnight experts. Bottom line research it for yourself and decide, I have seen good arguments from both sides, however no AI in PCT is always the best option imo, especially now with better OTC's that can be added to a PCT in conjunction with a SERM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeatus101 View Post
    Rosie,ive heard people say that just use some ERASE as a PCT,do you think thats alright?
    Definitely not - Erase standalone is not adequate enough for PCT. I told you what your PCT required in post #2.

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    damn, i missed this, sucks for me.

    ill agree with the last poster, serm + ai, or serm solo is debatable, it comes down to personal preference really...imo if e2 is controlled on cycle with an ai, there is no point in pct, aromasin would be the optimal choice being a suicide inhibiter....i hate arimidex, for alot of reasons, ill always say aromasin

    the point made about a pct with just an ai is plain retarded, and if anyone needs articles, or docs from pubmed, they lack any cycling experience seeing they cannot grasp the concept of post cycle therapy

    yes serms have their sides, pretty much anything from aspirin to tren ace will come with some degree of side effects, but weighing minor liver damage from a serm (which is insane considering all the methyl ph cycles guys do, but are afraid of a serm), vs hpta shutdown, for me personally its a no brainer

    toremifene actually is far superior than clomid and nolvadex, effects and sides....it hasnt been around long enuff for the clinical research to back this, however many will agree this is the serm of choice

    torem + exemestane
    torem + solo
    torem + otc pct adjuvants (example trs, erase, bioforge, and so on)

    these should be the only 3 pct protocols one needs if you want to factor effectiveness, and minimize side effects

    personally, torem solo has been more than enuff, and im talking 14wk inj cycles, not some 4wk alpha one job, or beastdrol
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    If you want to hold those gains and really really come back downstairs:

    Clomid 50/50/50/50
    HCGenerate 5/5/5/5
    ERASE 2/2/2/1/1/1
    creatine mono 15g a day for 50days

    Nothing PP or CEL makes will come close to that. Not the recovery stack or anything similar. The clomid and HCGen are kinda costly but you spent quite a bit on the cycle so why cheap out in PCT???


    That is a very good combo, hard to say its the best....
  

  
 

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