Best PCT combination?
- 02-01-2011, 01:18 PM
- 02-01-2011, 02:31 PM
* Testosterone Boosters (one product that increase Free Testosterone and Total Testosterone or a stack covering both areas)
* Luteinizing Hormone Releaser
* Cortisol Controller
* Estrogen Antagonists/Aromatase Inhibitor
Clomid and Nolvadex covers your Estrgen Antagonist/Aromatase Inhibitor. Note that one should never use just a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) like Clomid or Nolva for PCT because they do not address all the key issues required during PCT regarding the restarting of the HPTA, including but not limited to high cytokine levels, low testicular L-Carnitine levels, low leptin levels, low levels of certain minerals in the testes, etc. Not only that, they cause depression, and can also cause rebound gyno in a lot of users.
- 02-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Rosie, I'm finishing up gathering for my pct, is the testosterone recovery stack, some Arimidex and toremifene good enough for pct, or do I need more? ( it was/is a test e cycle at 12 weeks, 400 a week)
02-01-2011, 02:45 PM
02-01-2011, 03:05 PM
i got gyno of 3weeks on dbol, its a lump about the size of a penny under my right nipple, i went to the doctors he sent me to the hospital to see a speicalist at the hospital he had a feel of it and said it should just go with in time, im no doctor but i cant see the lump jst going away. he put a huge needle in me which was the most painful thing ive done in my life and said he will have results for me in 2 weeks. Has any1 ever had theres just go away????? ( or smaller ) thanks,
02-01-2011, 03:10 PM
Anabolic Designs RepresenativePerform and Transformhttp://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/171721-boagrius-logging-pes.html
02-01-2011, 09:03 PM
02-02-2011, 07:47 AM
As far as using a SERM, if your cycle was less than six weeks, then you don't really need to use one, so if you can't get one and your cycle was less than that, you'll be ok.
02-02-2011, 10:13 AM
02-02-2011, 05:36 PM
02-03-2011, 12:13 AM
02-03-2011, 08:01 AM
02-03-2011, 07:58 PM
02-03-2011, 10:21 PM
02-03-2011, 10:29 PM
02-04-2011, 12:35 AM
02-04-2011, 12:53 AM
AI's can do damage to lipid profiles and bone denisty/bone mineral density. Having less estrogen also causes libido loss. SERMs block estrogen where it needs to be blocked so as to avoid most of the bad side effects of lowering estrogen.
PCT is a time when hormones need to be brought back to baseline.
Celtic Labs Rep
02-04-2011, 01:06 AM
Link?AI's can do damage to bone denisty/bone mineral density.
02-04-2011, 01:15 AM
SERMs selectively activate/occupy certain receptors in certain parts of the body. They don't occupy bone estrogen receptors, they do occupy estrogen receptors in the breast tissue. This is why breast cancer patients don't have brittle bones when mega dosing SERMs.
Why would you suggest someone stack an AI with a SERM if the SERM is already so horribly devastating their body?
Celtic Labs Rep
02-04-2011, 01:26 AM
For the same reason, you would suggest a SERM. You can never have a "perfect recovery combination." Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree. On one hand you need something powerfull enough to jumpstart your HPTA ,but on the other, you can't use a natural substance (something like DAA) by itself after a superdrol cycle because you won't recover fully.Why would you suggest someone stack an AI with a SERM if the SERM is already so horribly devastating their body?
That's why you must use an AI and a SERM at a moderate dose, and once you feel recovered, let time take care of homeostasis; Because the body will heal itself.
02-04-2011, 01:36 AM
02-04-2011, 05:36 PM
AI only PCT is dangerous because it will mess up your already messed up cholesterol levels even more. Also if tapered off improperly even in conjunction with a SERM, it can lead to long lasting aromatase upregulation (estrogen rebound) which is something I'm facing now.
02-04-2011, 05:49 PM
But even tamoxifene has it's negative effects, even if not significantly dangerous..
Effects of tamoxifen on lipid profile and coagulation parameters in male patients with pubertal gynecomastia.
Novoa FJ, Boronat M, Carrillo A, Tapia M, Diaz-Cremades J, Chirino R.
Department of Endocrinology, Hospital Universitario Insular, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. firstname.lastname@example.org
BACKGROUND/AIM: The estrogenic actions of tamoxifen on lipid profiles and hemostasis have been extensively demonstrated in women. Due to limited experience with this drug in males, it is uncertain whether these effects are also present in men. The aim of our study was to assess the response of blood lipids, lipoproteins, and coagulation parameters in a group of men taking tamoxifen. METHODS: We studied 15 healthy boys with pubertal gynecomastia who were given 10 mg tamoxifen per day. Total testosterone, sex-hormone-binding globulin, estradiol, serum lipids, apolipoprotein B, apolipoprotein A-I, lipoprotein(a), fibrinogen, antithrombin III, von Willebrand factor, and markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis were determined at baseline and 1 and 3 months after beginning of the tamoxifen treatment. RESULTS: Total cholesterol and lipoprotein(a) showed moderate but significant decreases from baseline. Low-density lipoprotein and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations as well as triglyceride and apolipoprotein B levels became lower, but these changes were not statistically significant. Among clotting parameters, antithrombin III was reduced, and von Willebrand factor increased significantly. Markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis remained unchanged throughout the period of therapy. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of tamoxifen on blood lipids and hemostasis we found in this group of healthy young men were qualitatively similar, but lesser than those previously described in women.
02-04-2011, 05:50 PM
Granted the sides from a SERM are more harmful on women, but the sides are still present in men. And the SERMs that didn't make it past testing phase were likely very damaging to both men and women
02-04-2011, 06:06 PM
Not to mention tamoxifene's er activity can cause tumors to form in the liver.
Bottom line is, what I said above.."Exogeneous substances blocking and inhibiting natural hormones (such as SERM, AI, Dopamine inhibitors, etc. etc) and manipulating them to bring about desired effects will always have a negative effect to some degree"
Also the other bottom line is..Many of you guys don't realize that Estrogen receptors, progesterone receptors, and androgen receptors, are present ALL THROUGHOUT THE BODY, even the liver. You'll even find er's in the prostate. Slash the idea in your brain that an androgen receptor is only present in the HPTA, or that an estrogen receptor is only present in breast tissues because that's what I used to think; and it is wrong
02-04-2011, 06:17 PM
02-04-2011, 06:22 PM
Really guys, I know some of you may think i'm talking out my cornhole, but I'm not, I've researched this stuff pretty extensively, especially SARMsThe boys in the T-treated group (12 boys) received T enanthate (1 mg/kg, im, every 4 wk, six times). The T- plus-letrozole-treated group (13 boys) received T enanthate (as above) and, in addition, an aromatase inhibitor, letrozole 2.5 mg, orally, once a day for 12 months
The concentrations of total cholesterol, low and high density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides, transaminases, the leukocyte count, and the bone density were determined during the follow-up. In these safety parameters, no changes sufficient to indicate discontinuation of the treatment were observed in any of the boys. Letrozole was well tolerated; no side-effects were observed.
02-04-2011, 06:44 PM
I'm not sure where this is going. It should be clear that a SERM is better than an AI for PCT because instead of leaving an estrogen defecit in the system it acts as a mixed agonist/antagonist in pretty much the exact way you want it to (anagonist in breast and brain, agonist in liver and bone). With an AI you will lose the beneficial effects of estrogen/SERMs especially on liver and bone tissue. Only reason why I'd ever think of using one would be if aromatization or increased aromatase activity was a concern.
02-04-2011, 06:52 PM
02-04-2011, 07:12 PM
This topic has been argued over and over again for years. It always gets rehashed in some way, usually by those who "research" and become overnight experts. Bottom line research it for yourself and decide, I have seen good arguments from both sides, however no AI in PCT is always the best option imo, especially now with better OTC's that can be added to a PCT in conjunction with a SERM.
02-04-2011, 08:59 PM
02-04-2011, 09:15 PM
damn, i missed this, sucks for me.
ill agree with the last poster, serm + ai, or serm solo is debatable, it comes down to personal preference really...imo if e2 is controlled on cycle with an ai, there is no point in pct, aromasin would be the optimal choice being a suicide inhibiter....i hate arimidex, for alot of reasons, ill always say aromasin
the point made about a pct with just an ai is plain retarded, and if anyone needs articles, or docs from pubmed, they lack any cycling experience seeing they cannot grasp the concept of post cycle therapy
yes serms have their sides, pretty much anything from aspirin to tren ace will come with some degree of side effects, but weighing minor liver damage from a serm (which is insane considering all the methyl ph cycles guys do, but are afraid of a serm), vs hpta shutdown, for me personally its a no brainer
toremifene actually is far superior than clomid and nolvadex, effects and sides....it hasnt been around long enuff for the clinical research to back this, however many will agree this is the serm of choice
torem + exemestane
torem + solo
torem + otc pct adjuvants (example trs, erase, bioforge, and so on)
these should be the only 3 pct protocols one needs if you want to factor effectiveness, and minimize side effects
personally, torem solo has been more than enuff, and im talking 14wk inj cycles, not some 4wk alpha one job, or beastdrol
02-04-2011, 09:18 PM
If you want to hold those gains and really really come back downstairs:
creatine mono 15g a day for 50days
Nothing PP or CEL makes will come close to that. Not the recovery stack or anything similar. The clomid and HCGen are kinda costly but you spent quite a bit on the cycle so why cheap out in PCT???
That is a very good combo, hard to say its the best....
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