SERMs and potential blod clots and stroke.
- 01-28-2011, 01:25 PM
SERMs and potential blod clots and stroke.
I'm going to bring up an interesting question that's been spinning around in my head ever since i went to a urologist to check if the soldiers are still fit for duty.
After speaking with the doc he says the constant cycling of on and off and your testes rebounding so often is detrimental to the long term of your sperm count. eventually leading to possible infertility. He said quote,"they will rebound only so many times". He pointed me to the method of HRT which seems to be a bit safer. He also seemed to be a strong proponent of testosterone gels for delivery rather than injections.
Additionally he almost feinted when i told him i used SERMs after a cycle. He said that there's a rather fatal side effect with blood clots and strokes. This isn't talked about much on the boards or... well anywhere for that matter. I had to specifically look up this problem and it seems that the people who use it for what the drug is intended (fertility) are having issues with this.
So on to my question... there has to be a safer way. I've used DIM coming off mdrol before with moderate success. is there a way to cover MOST of the bases without resorting to dangerous substances like SERMs?
- 01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
That's why I try to always recommend a low dose SERM, just to try and negate some of the toxicity levels of SERMs.
The low dose SERM needs to be accompanied by an OTC PCT. I know Primordial makes quality supplements and I have the most experience with their line. The Testosterone Replacement Stack is going to work great with a low dose SERM.
If you want to only run the TRS, then it will suffice for shorter cycle. Anything over 6 weeks it may not be as effective unless you run it longer. 8 weeks instead of 4, but you'd need two of them. And that's just flat out too expensive.Celtic Labs Rep
- 01-28-2011, 02:12 PM
01-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Says here that AI's aren't anywhere near as bad. that in conjuction with a smart use of hcg would be a good way to go.
I'm thinking of running a nice long 12 weeker here soon and i'll be a little smarter about my PCT. to hell with these SERMs man... why does everybody recommend using them if they're this bad?
01-28-2011, 02:33 PM
01-28-2011, 02:46 PM
Personally, on a 12 week cycle, I would still use a SERM, but I would do it in a lower dosage than necessary since I would be running the TRS.
01-28-2011, 02:47 PM
I'm glad PP is out to help. you guys have a lot of real information and scientific facts to back your **** rather than all this bro-science everybody on the boards uses.
paying three times the price for a proper PCT is a little tough to swallow BUT when it comes down to if i'm going to get a blood clot and die or not, the choice really isn't much of a choice anymore, is it?
*lol'ing at the fact my PCT is going to cost more than my gear.
Last edited by tbonesteakboy; 01-28-2011 at 02:50 PM. Reason: lulz
01-28-2011, 02:54 PM
Serms is way too pushed imo. I will admit, im toying with the idea of using a serm, but the idea of being able to do it naturally interests me more. I think for my next prohormone run ill only be using ( for PCT )the Testosterone Recovery Stack and TCF-1. I have a lot of confidence in this combo right here. If it does not bring me back to 100% fast enough, ill consider more to adding a serm.
( at heart )
01-28-2011, 02:57 PM
Is a month on a SERM really that toxic? I thought these issues only came up in patients that were on long term SERM use.
01-28-2011, 02:57 PM
or you could just not use steroids, then you'd have nothing to worry about.
wich is alot better than wondering if that hundred so dollars you spent for pct products is worth it, or even if it'll work.
trs isn't made for stronger cycles, maybe turinabol, or 1-t, or their new andro series, but something like superdrol, no way.
01-28-2011, 03:18 PM
no way dude i'm DONE with PH's. my LDL is messed up hardcore right now. It's only straight up test inj for me in the future.
01-28-2011, 03:21 PM
What will you use for PCT after a test cycle?
01-28-2011, 03:27 PM
that's what i was hoping to find out here... maybe raloxifene + TRS.
01-28-2011, 03:39 PM
ralax and torem are supposed to have LOW toxicity levels
01-28-2011, 03:56 PM
Someone should run Clomid and/or Nolva for 4 weeks and get bloods done. I don't think short term use is detrimental..
01-28-2011, 08:45 PM
ralox has some pretty big numbers for thrombosis within the first 6 MONTHS of treatment. obviously there's no studies out there that include 4 weeks of treatment...
anyway, i'm thinking by controlling estrogen DURING and using hcg properlly, then low dosing a SERM and going a little more natural for my PCT i may mitigate SOME of these risks. I'm not a big fan of getting blood work done, but for the sake of science i would love to get some numbers to everybody during 4 weeks of low dosing raloxifene, though i don't think there's any blood work that will show a thrombosis or embolism is on the way. correct me if i'm wrong here...
01-28-2011, 08:52 PM
Let's take a step back and understand why i'm on here. I want to know a safer (not totally safe and idiot proof) way of getting my goals with what i have available to me.
01-29-2011, 11:19 AM
Any strong PH/DS or any AAS cycle needs a SERM. Perhaps not at the absurd doses that some AAS users tend to dose tham at, but at reasonable dosing, they are proven to be safe and effective.
I too find it quite hypocritical of steroid users who introduce an exogenous substance that trashes lipid profiles, stresses the liver, kidneys and prostate, and shuts down endogenous testosterone production, but then blame the SERM to be "bad guy" of the cycle. WTF!?!?
Generally speaking, SERMs have excellent safety and efficacy records. Of course they have their side effects; but most of the more life threatening sides come at high doses over extended periods of time; certainly not at the doses and time frames that most AAS users use them.
OP, just as an FYI, Raloxifene is also a SERM and most AI's are pretty damaging to lipid profiles. Something to keep in mind. Nolvadex, Clomid, and Fareston are all very proven, reliable, and safe methods of recovery. I don't buy into the propoganda proposed by many OTC supplement manufacturers. OTC products have their place too, but should be used for very light cycles, as monotherapy, or in conjunction with a SERM during a PCT for stronger PH/DS/AAS cycles.
01-29-2011, 11:51 AM
I know ralox is a serm... I think I said that. I know serms aren't the only bad guy here. Wait wait hold on here im trying to get a safer alternative not a flame on what everybody else is saying. I think you're biased on years of broscience and wont take a forward approach on something new. And what do you mean proven? You're saying that everybody on the boards is doing it. Look my first post was about a doctor warning me... so unless you cough up a doctorite im going to believe they aren't as safe as people are lead to believe. Additionally Eric from PP has some pretty convincing evidence.
Im not entirely sure you read everything here or you're taking things out of context maybe.
I had to churn this out on my droid so excuse the grammar and spelling.
01-29-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm interested in triptorelin which is an GnRH agonist. Theres only minimal research on it's use, but from what i've seen and heard it looks promising
01-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Honestly, if you want to use a SERM, just use toremifene. It's not going to lower IGF-1 or GH. It's purported to have lower toxicity than other SERMs.
If you want to reduce toxicity even more, run it low dose with the TRS. If you have a vendetta against OTC PCT, don't talk trash on the TRS. Unless you've used it and gotten bloodwork showing it is bad, don't lump it in with other **** like novedex.
Novedex is why OTC PCT has a bad name. Yes, that stuff IS garbage and enough testimonials from people can pretty much seal that one.
Celtic Labs Rep
01-29-2011, 05:38 PM
I've been building my body since 1985 ...
Did it totally naturally up until this year when I ran an Epistane cycle followed by Torem PCT.
But ... during all the years I was natural - I had plenty of buddies who did steroids.
Not an expert - and with the new "designer steroids" that are less suppressive - maybe OTC PCT is the way to go ... I dunno.
But I can tell you straight up - people went to SERMS because body builders were getting gyno and losing their gains after quitting the juice.
And the SERMS work. I've never known anyone who had a blood clot, or a stroke, or had their livers explode on a SERM.
If you go OTC - I won't criticize you. For me actually - I'm scared of Clomid and Nolva, due to other sides I've heard attached to them. Others love Clomid and Nolva. For me - I like Torem (thinking about buying the pills next go-round).
Different people have different views - that's fine. Some like SERMS, some don't - to each his own.
Back in 1984, my buddies didn't use anything for PCT. They accepted the fact that they'd lose a percentage of their gains - that kind of sucked.
01-29-2011, 06:30 PM
01-29-2011, 07:00 PM
01-29-2011, 10:10 PM
Had bloods done 30 days after mdrol PULSE with otc pct and test levels were fine... more than fine actually. But the LDL levels were waaaay high. All I used for pct was DIM and terrestris. But we all know methyls do this. Sadly my doc didn't mark estradiol in my test so who knows how that was. I had itchy nips the whole way throght the pulse.
Hey if I get bloods done after my 12 weeks of test and PCT with ralox + trs maybe that will change some minds. I will modify the dosage of ralox if I can get some advice on how I should do it. That's cool if PP wants to shed some light on the subject. Or if anybody else is in the know.
Thanks for confirming big, no test for thombosis. Guess the only test is having one... and if anybody is confused(thrombosis or deep vein thrombosis(DVT) = blood clot) another possible side effect is pulmonary embolism whish is a clot in the lung)
01-29-2011, 10:52 PM
01-29-2011, 11:06 PM
01-29-2011, 11:26 PM
01-30-2011, 10:09 AM
Additionally, my PCTs have always been supported by pre, intra, and post cycle blood work, further supporting that SERMs are safe and effective. I can’t say this to be true for many other people on the forum offering up their “awesome knowledge”. I am always responsible with my cycles and can damn well afford a robust cycle, PCT, and the relevant blood work.
My suggestion; do your own research! I have done hundreds of hours of my own reasearch (outside body building and steroid forums) that support that SERMs are safe and highly effective when dosed properly. Then again, each person needs to gain their own personal level of comfort with any substance prior to using it.
Good luck with finding your safe alternative. Let me know when you come up with the next miracle PCT. Perhaps you can stuff in some LiquaVade. Until then, I will stick to my trusty Clomid. Aahh, Clomid…works EVERY TIME!
01-30-2011, 02:58 PM
Lol rage post.
Anyway let's stay on track. The topic is potential risk with current SERMs and clotting. So far none of us have heard of this happening in the BB community but is there any risk possible? Eric from PP has some interesting information available. If anybody can provide some scientific evidence in the way of medical documentation to back this up...
Its already well known that most all SERMs cause clotting and other issues but the evidence is presented in longer term patients.
My original question was how we can mitigate potential risks with some other options. Im willing to try these other options and provide bloodwork for effectiveness, but cannot provide proof that the new method will prevent or reduce risk of clotting. (If method includes any use of a SERM)
01-30-2011, 03:29 PM
This is silly. SERMs like estrogen can cause blood clots etc but it is a very rare side effect. Its extremely beneficial effect on HDL cholesterol levels pretty much offsets vascular / heart risks especially for people that use it after AAS. Check out your lipid profile after say a superdrol cycle - if your doctor was so concerned about using SERMs he would probably have killed himself to see almost double digit LDL/HDL ratios. If you are so concerned about your risk for deep vein thrombosis after a month on a SERM then maybe use asprin (you shouldn't have to). Women with breast cancer take tamoxifen for upto 5 years with minimal side effects. They only stop after 5 years because of increased uterine cancer risk (raloxifen was developed for this reason).
If I had to design the perfect drug to fix the damage done by AAS it would be tamoxifen. It acts as a antagonist of ER in the brain restoring the HPTA axis rapidly, acts as an agonist in the liver helping with cholesterol, antagonist in the breast preventing gyno etc. As mentioned before AAS use is many times more dangerous than SERMs. SERMs are the theoretically perfect PCT drug with a proven safety and efficacy record. That being said, I think that they are still powerful drugs and need to used sparingly and in a well researched manner.
01-30-2011, 03:33 PM
I don't have a problem with the point of your thread in trying to find a safer alternative. I am growing tired of the over-hyped dangers people claim with respect to using tried and true therpaies that inlcude SERMs. This lends iteself to scaring newbies and misrepresentation of the real risks of SERMs, which results in someone sticking to an OTC PCT for Superdrol or DMZ and never recovering and growing a set of fun bags. Then they will go to their doctor, complain about their symnptoms, doc will blame it on the steroids, report it to the FDA, and the FDA then will get involved and start banning substances that so many other people use responsibly. This is a sad reality and that book has already been written a few times now.
Instead, why don't we try to mitigate the real risk and provide meaningful information that is not misleading of the risks of using a SERM during PCT (of which is very short in duration, greatly reducing the risk of potential side effects). These scare tactics used by many of the OTC PCT manufacturers to discuss the dangers of SERMs is misleading in many ways and is really a marketing tactic used to generate revenues. To say otherwise would just prove to someone to be naive.
Again, I find it to be the epitome of hypocritical when steroid users claim they won't use a SERM for PCT because of the risk of side effects. So how does this make sense?? It doesn't...bottom line.
01-31-2011, 03:26 PM
People who use OTC PCT often just use the wrong kinds which causes everyone to think OTC is not going to work. Yes, if you use a 30 or 40 bottle of some random OTC PCT, it won't do much. IMO, nothing is going to be more effective than the TRS. It covers all the bases in a very straightforward way. No proprietary blends, no hidden ingredients. It's all up front and quality.
Also, the older one gets the harder it is to recover. Then they might NEED a pharmacological PCT.
I'm not trying to demonize SERMs. I usually recommend them for 6 week or longer cycles. Just to be on the face side HPTA wise. If people don't want adverse side effects, they probably shouldn't screw with their hormones anyway.
Celtic Labs Rep
01-31-2011, 04:01 PM
I think one key point that folks are missing here ... is that - these studies include populations of cancer patients - who may not be in the best of physical condition when the drug is administered anyway.
Anyone seen a study on healthy individuals and their reactions to the SERMS?
02-01-2011, 10:21 AM
02-01-2011, 10:52 AM
I am not suggesting that Eric is wrong for taking this approach. He has a vested interest and passion for his products and the position he takes is usually supported by a plethera of evidence. I can't blame the guy for that. However, I still maintain that people shouldn't take everything in those articles at face value, or as objective evidence, and that there could be potential for bias, considering he makes his living selling OTC PCT products, as well as other supplements.
People should consider Eric's articles as good information, however, they should also look outside of the Primordial Performance library when assessing whether or not to use a SERM.
02-01-2011, 11:09 AM
02-01-2011, 11:56 AM
I think the risk of a possibly fatal side effect can be lessened by a smarter PCT. Now this makes the argument of "if you don't like side effects from substance z then don't do substance y" a moot point. Its not hypocritical to say you don't want to DIE from your pct.
Im wondering if the lessened dosage in conjuction with other methods actually lessens risk? I mean to say is clotting dosage dependant or length of time dependant? Also, is there less risk of cycling the drug? I have read some information from a clinical trial that HRT patients have exhibited clotting past the 5 year mark.
As a side note... can I use ralox or torem like tamox for intra-cycle gyno flare ups?
02-01-2011, 12:13 PM
02-01-2011, 12:21 PM
So, how is it not hypocritical of one to accept the risks associated with using a steroid, yet they are not willing to accept the risk of using a SERM to mitigate the risks associated with of discontinuing the use of said steroid? So, let me get this right...people are willing to DIE from using a steroid, yet they are NOT willing to DIE from their PCT (which carries far less risk than the steroid itself)?
I do beleive Torem can be used in a similar manner. Personally, I prefer Clomid, but I beleive lots of Nolvadex users are transitioning to Fareston/Torem as their preferred SERM. I've rad nothing but good things about it.
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