2 Year Shut Down - Torem showed hope for 3 days (help!)
- 01-16-2011, 02:30 AM
2 Year Shut Down - Torem showed hope for 3 days (help!)
Iíll try to make this short.
After a PCT went wrong Iíve been shut down for two years. These have been the worst years of my life and I tried everything except going back to research chemicals. I tried exercise, good diet, a brief trt with an urologist that only made things worst. My sex life completely disappeared.
So, last week I decided to give research chemicals another shot. A friend recommended toremifene and aromasin in the following dosage:
TOREM - 120 (3 days) 90/90/60/30
AROMASIN Ė 12.5 EOD
Other OTC things Iím taking are macca, tribulus, l-carnitine, multivitamins and ZMA.
So I take 120mg of Torem the first day (no aromasin that day) around 6pm and behold, a few hours later I get the best hard on I ever got in two years. I thought ďIím cured, my **** is back, Torem is the ****Ē and proceeded to masturbate about 6 times. I know Iím not supposed to masturbate during PCT but you have to understand where Iím coming from.
Next day things change and Iím back to my no-libido self, I get worried. Then I repeat the dosage that night, my balls start to hurt and my **** comes back with another decent erection. This happened for the first 3 days, night good - day bad. After day 4, my nipples and my balls started hurting like crazy and then Iím back to my old self. No libido, no decent erections and to make things worst my sperm turns all clear and liquidy. Today Iím on day 5 (90mg) and still the same problems.
So what happened on those first 3 days that is not happening now??? Was it the 120mg??? Isnít that supposed to be too much? Should I remove the aromasin or increase its dosage? What should I do different considering that Iím not coming from a cycle but from a 2 year shut down? Iím I worrying too soon and should wait?
Please, I could use some help around here. These 2 years have been terrible and those first 3 days with Torem gave me hope.
One other thing is that I should receive Sustain Alpha next week together with testojack200, fenugreek and ICariin. Should I take those, will they help?????
- 01-16-2011, 02:47 AM
01-16-2011, 03:08 AM
Although you are right about the bloodwork, however, I already visited a doctor once who gave me Test cyp and just gave me gyno. Right now I can't afford a doctor.
The Torem definitely triggered something those first 3 days that was working really well and that's the basis of my post.
01-16-2011, 03:24 AM
if you cant afford 188 dollar insurance plus another 50 60 for an office visit you shouldnt be ordering research chems someone might have made in their sink.
but if youve been shut down for 2 years, hcg clomid/nolva with an ai should help...
@what dosage im not sure about hcg (i posted something someone in a simmilar situation had used)
hcg-1000 iu 2x a week
aromasin-12.5 eod like you have
have you tried d-aspartic-acid? im sure it could help.
but for serious, get bloodwork man
01-16-2011, 06:14 AM
I agree. Pharm tabs are so easy to get, I don't know why ppl still order research chemicals. They're just as illegal unless you have an actual research lab.
And WHY in the world haven't you seen a doctor yet?... get some insurance if you don't have any, and go see an endocrinologist or someone....
01-16-2011, 02:31 PM
I don't think HCG is going to fix your problem (it will help temporarily, but not permanently). Also, Aromasin can very well affect your sex drive. If it were me (and definitely get a second opinion on this), I would drop the Aromasin, and use the Torem @ 120-90-60-30 (you're estrogen is probably low right now, so we need to get that back up to normal levels, as well as your testosterone). If you can get clomid, it may be better as far as rebooting your testosterone production than toremifene, but I'm not sure about that. Libido is a function of multiple hormonal ratios, and if they are out of balance, your libido can be affected. Further on down the PCT, if you start getting estro sides, you can throw in a mild AI at a low enough dose to control those sides, and then taper down as you get closer to the end of your PCT (Formestane works very well for me). I definitely recommend blood work though, so that we know where you stand hormonally. It really does make a difference, and without that, we're all just speculating. I'd like to refer you to this sticky in the anabolics section about getting cheap bloodwork (which has worked great for me): Cheap Bloodwork - How to Get It WITHOUT Insurance. Do this, and report back with the results.
01-16-2011, 02:35 PM
01-17-2011, 09:09 AM
01-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Too true! I was just saying that no matter WHAT route we take, there are no assurances. I just wish there was a way to test my research chems to see if they are bunk or dosed properly.
01-20-2011, 03:25 PM
I would stay on the Torem at 90 for a couple more weeks, and drop the aromasin.
SERMS have long half lives, and build up...stay the course.
Consider adding 3g of DAA for 2-3 weeks as well.
01-20-2011, 03:38 PM
01-20-2011, 03:41 PM
Clomid or Torem are good choices for SERMs to restart things (potentially). Personally, in order of preference, I like Clomid, then Toremifene, then Nolvadex for the job, but any of them might work.
If using a SERM and DAA doesn't get you going again, stop self-diagnosing yourself and see a professional. TRT is an option, but should be last resort.
02-03-2011, 12:28 PM
TEST RESULTS ARE IN.
Just so you know I'm on my 4th week of Torem taking 60 e/d. Not taking anything else other than natural supplements and sustain alpha. My libido still down and no decent erections.
I'm 30 years old. 5'9". 196lbs.
(test) (results) (units) (interval)
Testosterone, Serum 633 ng/dL 249-836
Testosterone,Free 18.29 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.89 % 1.50-4.20
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) 431 ng/dL 31-701
LH,s 11.5 high mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, serum 6.9 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Prolactin 9.0 ng/mL 4.0-15.2
Estradiol 33.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6
Cholesterol, Total 189 mg/dL 100-199
Triglycerides 143 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 46 mg/dL >39
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 29 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 114 High mg/dL 0-99
CBC WITH DIFFERENTIAL/PLATELET
WBC 5.9 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.65 High x10E6/uL 4.10-5.60
Hemoglobin 15.9 g/dL 12.5-17.0
Hematocrit 47.4 % 36.0-50.0
MCV 84 fL 80-98
MCH 28.1 pg 27.0-34.0
MCHC 33.5 g/dL 32.0-36.0
RDW 13.4 % 11.7-15.0
Platelets 244 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 52 % 40-74
Lymphs 33 % 14-46
Monocytes 11 % 4-13
Eos 4 % 0-7
Basos 0 % 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.1 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.9 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.6 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-1
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1
COMP. METABOLIC PANEL
Glucose, Serum 93 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 20 mg/dL 6-20
Creatinine, Serum 1.05 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
eGFR >59 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 8-19
Sodium, Serum 140 mmol/L 135-145
Potassium, Serum 4.5 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 25 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.0 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 7.1 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.6 g/dL 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 87 IU/L 25-150
AST (SGOT) 25 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 33 IU/L 0-55
Unfortunately I couldn't get the GnRH test.
Your help will be extremely appreciated. Thank You
02-03-2011, 12:55 PM
I don't really see anything off with those results (I'd work on my Lipids though). Can you restate your LH though. I noticed it is off the scale on the high side by what you wrote, but you didn't state it was high like you did with your LDL, so I was just checking. If those values are correct, it certainly appears your body is trying to make as much testosterone as possible. So, as far as the HPT Axis is concerned, at least they're working. It seems it's just taking a while, but I would stay on the Torem, and get labs again in a few weeks, and see what your test/estradiol does. If they stay about the same, then I'd consider tapering off the Toremifene over the next 4 weeks, to allow your estradiol to slowly drop down to normal (make sure to check labs 2 weeks in on the down-taper to watch your hormones-test should fall a little, as well as estradiol). You may want to have an AI on hand, just in case. Either way, this problem is pretty perplexing, and most of what I say is merely what I would do. I am in no way qualified to make suggestions of this ilk, and I would make sure to get other people's opinions before doing anything, as I am fairly new to this game as well. Good luck, and please keep us informed, as this seems to be a very good learning experience for all of us!
02-03-2011, 01:00 PM
Sorry, it was marked as high
LH 11.5 High mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
Would you consider adding DAA? What can I do about my lipids?
02-03-2011, 01:09 PM
02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
02-03-2011, 01:55 PM
Ok, this is what I'm putting in my body.
The TOREM, right now 4th week at 60 ed. Next week will be my final at 30 ed. Should I taper down further?
-Sustain Alpha (for a week now)
-ZMA before bed
-C vitamin for cortisol control 2g ed.
I have the aromasin on hand but haven't used it other than the first week. I have some fat content around my nipple area, how can I effectively tell if gyno occurs under that fat?
02-03-2011, 02:20 PM
Well, you could taper off now, I suppose. I personally prefer formestane as my AI of choice, as I have bloodwork showing it dropping my estradiol in half over 1 week. I've never tried aromasin, so I can't comment on how quickly it takes effect, but I know formestane is very quick. I don't really see a problem with any of the supps you're taking right now, but I would say, stop taking anything for libido problems. That way you'll know when you're better! Just watch your estradiol, and I would highly recommend another blood test in the near future (2 weeks or so), and compare results.
02-11-2011, 09:33 PM
02-12-2011, 03:38 AM
02-12-2011, 04:48 AM
The Toremifene has obviously worked for me here as you can see in the lab results. One year ago my test was in 286 and now is 633.
The bloodwork looks promising the problem is that I still have libido problems...
02-12-2011, 07:49 AM
02-12-2011, 08:55 AM
Glad to hear op. How long did you run it for before deciding to try coming off? Or do you stay on it? lol
02-12-2011, 01:39 PM
If the libido and ED problems still persist I will have to go to the doctor and check for other problems.
02-12-2011, 01:53 PM
Torem is awesome stuff ... I'm thinking about doing one cycle a year of just that. But ... I'm still having a problem believing that it increased your test levels that much.
But whatever - good news is good news!
I don't know how you have low libido ... well you could try some Formestane or maybe some Erase ... but ...
02-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Actually, estrogen is an important component in libido as well. There is a optimal ratio of hormones that will provide the strongest libido (that ratio may differ on an individual basis). When I use formestane (which works VERY well), my libido crashes, even at 4 pumps per day (2 am/2 pm). Within a week (usually 2 days), my libido comes ROARING back! Could be due to some SHBG modulating effects, or perhaps DHT inhibition, but either way, it happens! So, I suggest just getting your hormones back into homeostasis, and once you stop using everything, your libido should return. I am glad to see the O.P. doing regular blood tests though, as that helps to remove the guesswork from the equation.
02-12-2011, 02:12 PM
Your bloodwork looks fine, your torem is definately legit considering the high LH... I would drop the torem and continue a low dose of aromasin for a couple weeks to make sure estrogen doesn't spike.
Libido is dependent on many things, not just testosterone and other hormones. Dopamine and various neurotransmitters prob have a larger effect actually. Look into some supplements that help stimulate dopamine secretion possibly. Stress and other lifestyle factors play a major role too. Are you sleeping enough, diets in check, stressed at work etc...
Also, it can be mental as well... if your freaked out every time you don't wake up with morning wood, then you could be psyching yourself out.
Come off the SERM and get more blood work in a month to see where you testosterone levels out at, b/c it will prob drop some after stopping torem.
02-12-2011, 02:39 PM
02-12-2011, 02:47 PM
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