tren/epi pct didnt help
- 11-30-2009, 12:55 AM
tren/epi pct didnt help
hey guys so about 3 months ago i ran a 5 week tren/epi cycle with no support supps or liver. it was an oral cycle. i did a pct of post cycle support by AI and i dont think i am anywhere near recovered i have some strange symptoms and would like to know your opinion.
heres some lab results.
total T 329 280-900
free T 4.4 9.3-26.5
24 hour cortisol was normal
prolactin 4.3 4.0-15.2
estradiol 21.2 7.6-42.6
SHBG 38 11-54
LH 1.4 1.3-9.2
FSH 1.8 1.6-8.6
i though this was vry strange that my numbers got soo low after pct
my symtoms are
lack of concentration
lack of motor skills
lump in left nipple (got this on cycle)
im wondering what my next step would be i was told the PCS was close to a serm so i thought a 5 week cycle wouldnt kill my HTPA.
i still feel very shutdown after pct which is odd for me.
would somthing like HCG help my free T its out of range for a 60 Year old
and would clomid do anything after this much time? i rele need some help here
also to add i did some drinking on cycle i know im an idiot but its an important peice i think so
any info would help
- 11-30-2009, 04:49 PM
- 11-30-2009, 05:46 PM
im suprised u arent more shut down . ur pct was half assed to say the least. ur total t is higher than i would expect for running that cycle with only PCS for PCT. so consider urself lucky. but if ur experiencing what seems like onset of gyno id get some clomid and dose it low like 50mg for 4 weeks with either an ai or a low dose of nolva like 10mg until the puffiness in the nip goes away. throw in a natty t booster or get some sustain alpha like today while its on sale and u should be good in a month or two
11-30-2009, 06:03 PM
what were your blood results like pre-cycle?
11-30-2009, 07:28 PM
OK first off please post your cycle that you ran? With out that how can people see exactly what you Should have used for a pct.
I would have suggested you ran a serm as well.
11-30-2009, 08:44 PM
i ran a product similar to the compound in spawn 35mg epi 80mg tren i think it was
i ran for 5 weeks.
i didnt have a serm i wish i did. and its hard to get blood tested for me so i dont have any from pre cycle.
are these normal symptoms for someone who is shutdown? like i said ive never been through this and was wondering if anyone else has.
and will a serm 3 months later still be effective?
12-02-2009, 01:03 AM
run clomid for a pct length 4 weeks, since its so far passed the actual PCT ur gonna need to run it at like 50/40/30/20. Once u feel like ur HPTA is back on a bit then ur gonna need to take care of ur gyno. Depending on how hard/big ur nip is ur prob gonna need to taper Letro to get rid of it, after u taper letro u gonna need to do a 2 week pct of nolva.
Go buy clomid, letro and nolva now and start researching. U got a lot of work ahead of u. Oh and u should probably say goodbye to drinkig until u figure this **** out.
12-02-2009, 08:26 PM
12-04-2009, 04:26 AM
thanks for the info its hard to believe ive been shutdown this hard for three months
i would suspect with the low LH FSH and T that i would be secondary hypogonadism if any. does that sound right? im hoping my doc will throw me a bone and gve me clomid if not ill have to go the internet way. im hoping the clear up the mental side effects first before i worry about the gyno its not very big
12-04-2009, 04:40 PM
You would think you would recover after 3 months but not sure.... have you lost muscle/gained fat? how is strength and energy in the gym?
your free test is non-existant which is more important that total T
Any serm should boost your test above baseline within a few weeks, I would personally just use nolva since in my experience it has the best effect on reducing gyno...
12-04-2009, 06:29 PM
12-04-2009, 06:31 PM
ya i lost about 15 lbs i gained on cycle due to feeling so bad also i havnt been in the gym for a few weeks now so i would imagine i lost strength also i have 0 energy and motivation. i would also think my total T is low for my age being an active guy.
ive never ran a serm so im wondering what will raise my T and LH/FSH and KEEP THEM UP. i rele want my HTPA to recover
if thats the problem?
12-04-2009, 06:34 PM
true to the above but they are low i realize that i cant compare them to anything but with all the sudden sides ive experianced i can tell somthing is off. could anyone recomend a decent site to get clomid or is that not allowed on the forum i just dont know where to start.
ty for all the help
12-04-2009, 06:42 PM
yeah dude PCS is an okay supp but you are suppossed to take that like 3 weeks into PCT cuz it doesnt do much. you can run clomid and nolva at a low does for 3 weeks or soemthing then followed by an OTC AI and testbooster for 4 weeks. look into sustain alpha,bio forge,activate xtreme for testboosters and for a AI look into novadex xt or 6oxo
novadex xt 0/0/2/2/2/1
activate xtreme 0/0/0/4/4/4/4
i dont know the doses on sustain or bioforge or there ingrediants so i couldnt show you i jsut know they have been working very well. also i dont know if you should get hCG and do a couple injections then wait a week then do this set up. keep posting and asking around because hcg can have negative effect on your LH but its good to use but i think you may jsut want to wait a few days till you use clomid so it will respong better, ive read that before.
12-04-2009, 07:19 PM
realistically, even if you do nothing, odds are good that your levels will eventually return. It will take a while but should happen, in medical studies if I recall the % correctly something like over 90% of men hit over 80% of their pre-androgen levels by 6 months..
Can't talk about sources for clomid as it is a prescription drug or research chemical not an over the counter product.
Short term i'd think a (primal male or T-force) / activate xtreme combination would likely be best for making you feel good, and not interfere with natural recovery. the primal male/tforce you wouldn't want to run longer than 8 weeks, but the activate xtreme could be run longer.
12-04-2009, 11:22 PM
i think sustain alpha or bioforge is better or atleast more popular. look into al lthe products we have listen and decide. they will definatly make you feel better and help keep gains and have your everyday life easier. you need to heal and maybe see an endo.
12-05-2009, 12:59 AM
ya i rele hope somthing works my quality of life is **** right now.
i need to clear this mental fog and fatigue and get back in the gym
... and get my **** workin and get back in the bed
12-05-2009, 01:11 AM
so if you cant get a doctor to help you get some serms and run them maybe for liek 3-4weeks at low dose. try and get hcg and ask someone when to do that. get those natural boosters too. also start eating 4-5 eggs every morning(yokes as well) and take ZMA at night along with fishoils (EFA 3,6,9) in the morning. every little bit counts. lift heavy in the gym with big muscle groups. also update us on what route you are gonig to take weather its doctor or self medicate.
12-05-2009, 02:32 AM
i am seeing another endo within the week. if he offers no help (suspecting he wont)
im gonna get my hands on some sustain alpha or primal male to get my LH up and get some output from the testis. untill i can get get some clomid to run.
also was jw i tried some tongkat ali at somthing low like a 50:1 extract and felt no benifits from it. would i suspect the same from another test booster or is tongkat ali crap? i just hope im not past the point of boosting my levels
12-05-2009, 05:05 AM
6-8 weeks of clomi @ 50mg day ED is what what doctor said he prescribes. I would also add in a natty test booster like Sustain alpha + Toco 8 man
btw tren is a libido killer.. and i mean killer. increases progesterone which is the chemical men produce after ejaculation. so ED and many other problems are a direct result of tren and its affinity on the PR receptor.
12-05-2009, 01:06 PM
I was in a similar situation after i ran SD back in 05 for my first cycle and used a sh*t OTC pct... Your T is pretty much undoubtedly lower than it was pre-cycle
all your symptoms point to low levels of androgens
if your doc won't help you, do a google search for "legit research chem sites" and read through some of the threads for info...
12-05-2009, 03:39 PM
ive heard 6-8 weeks of clomid is bad for you. make sure your testbooster has stining nettle extract. its great for freeing up test and is the main ingrident in mass fx,tbol, activate xtreme.
12-05-2009, 04:54 PM
12-05-2009, 05:39 PM
yeah im sure its ok for health but i heard it can have negative feed back on LH and such. im sure with his levels being so low it wouldnt hurt tho. ask about lowering dose to 25 after 4 weeks or dosing everyother day or something near the end.
12-06-2009, 12:21 AM
thanks guys what would be a decent protocol for clomid?
should i do like 50mg the first week to kickstart it and then 25mg for the next 3 weeks? or would a 4 week cycle be too short.
and should i run primal male up untill i can get clomid and then stop. or stay with it through the clomid.
thanks for you help
12-06-2009, 12:49 AM
You could try running something like
Nolva, 20mgs/day for 6 weeks,
HCG 500ius/day for 3 weeks,
20mgs of Aromasin/day for 6 weeks, and
1000 ius vitamin E/day for 3 weeks.
I've read this is supposed to be an outstanding PCT and would definitely get you going again. But judging by your experience from you posts you probably have no idea what any of this stuff is.
It's hard to concentrate when I can hear your thoughts.
12-06-2009, 04:20 PM
id run clomid 50/50/25/25
and sustainb alpha looks better than primal male dude or get bio forge. try and get hcg aswell and ive seen people low dose nolva and armosin like the guy above me. its all on what you can get and afford. start your over the counter after 3 weeks on clomid. and run for 4 weeks. and get tbol from thermlife to raise that free test.
12-06-2009, 07:42 PM
saw the endo he confirmed secondary hypogonadism. but said my levels should come back on their own over time even tho they are pretty low he wanted to restest.
i was going to order some clomid and sustain alpha and try that. thank you for the help and ill let you know the progress.
12-06-2009, 10:21 PM
and should i run 50mg ed or eod?
and one more dumb question i guess. after and during the cycle my balls were (gone)
but quickly grew back to normal size yet the tests and i show that im shutdown. is that normal for anyone?
12-07-2009, 08:11 AM
yes that is fairly normal. remember testicle size is more driven by LH levels than systemic T levels. LH causes localized production of test in your testicles which makes them larger, but your overall testosterone level is more dictated by hypothalus + pituitary function than testicle size.
Plus like everything else dealing with those glands its very individual, I get little to no shrinkage
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