Why did my PCT fail me? Lost 90% gains.

[DenDestroys]

I started my cycle at 192, and went up to 207. My gains on bench went up from repping 225 to 275. Dumbbell rows went up to 140's. Simply put: this cycle was awesome.

H-Drol: 50/75/100/125/150/150
Cycle Assist: Entire duration

My PCT was well planned out and I ran:

Formex 50/50/25/25
Nolvadex 20/20/10/10
P.C.T Assist 0/0/6/6/6/6

First week into PCT my gains on bench dropped 10 pounds, and 10 pounds each week thereafter. I'm holding onto 10-15% of what I gained. I even boosted my calories up another 500 calories at the start of PCT to really bust ass to keep my gains- yeah right. I was completely unreponsive to the Formex, Nolva did a good job at keep any gyno away. I attribute the ZMA product to bringing my balls back to normal size. Throughout the whole PCT, I felt nothing from any of the products I was taking. I'm going for a bloodtest this week to see how my test levels and lipids look.

Any suggestions?

P.S.- I plan on running Superdrol in October, perhaps try Clomid this time?

 

[joeymutz]

ur PCT was fine it may have been your diet and training. Its also harder to keep the gains when your running short oral cycles. That's why people use real steroids. Right now i'm in week 12 of my primo cycle with some low dosed test and basically i stayed the same weight and leaned out a lot. that shows me i added some muscle and with primo you keep the gains because they come on very slow but your body adapts to the new muscle.

yes use clomid next time 50,50,25,25 nolvadex doesn't restart your hpta but clomid does.

my PCT will be clomid 100mg for 3 days then 50,50,25,25,12.5 then a run with get diesel's new product dtp. If i'm not fully recovered by then, then i don't know what will.

you may want to try PP's sustain alpha i bet that will get your levels up if they come back low

 

[MrBigPR]

Diet and training are a big thing In PCT. Lots of people cut their calories, you need to maintain it as if on cycle.

Clomid is better for shutdown and prolactin issues with SD

 

[bigpapa]

diet and training...train and eat the same way u did on cycle

 

[DenDestroys]

I did keep the calories up and trained exactly as I did on cycle. The funny thing is, I stayed right around the same weight while I was losing strength; I would've figured my weight to be dropping as strength did.

As mentioned before, longer cycles tend to cement gains more as your muscles get used to the changed more. Would it be beneficial to incorporate test into my superdrol cycle, so it would be kicking in right around the time I'm done with the superdrol and run that for about 8 weeks? I would only do this if it would help solidfy gains more.

 

[joeymutz]

The problem is with a lot of these compounds is you may keep your weight gain but your body loses some muscle in exchange for fat and yes your strength decreses but that is going to happen no matter what.

I would not suggest running SD. test is a good idea but i would run it at a moderate dose for a longer period of time like 16 weeks. Maybe add in something more androgenic also. A test and primo cycle would be a great cycle. I would only run shcering primo though and at a dose of 400mg/week and test at about 250mg/week if your looking for slow, keepable gains. This stack will transform your body. Be careful though if you do use primo because 90% out there are fakes. you can also run anavar or winny. my choice would be the var, it has more positives than negatives and has collagen synthesis and also repairs tendons as winny will make our tendons brittle but var is expensive.

 

[DenDestroys]

The problem is with a lot of these compounds is you may keep your weight gain but your body loses some muscle in exchange for fat and yes your strength decreses but that is going to happen no matter what.

I would not suggest running SD. test is a good idea but i would run it at a moderate dose for a longer period of time like 16 weeks. Maybe add in something more androgenic also. A test and primo cycle would be a great cycle. I would only run shcering primo though and at a dose of 400mg/week and test at about 250mg/week if your looking for slow, keepable gains. This stack will transform your body. Be careful though if you do use primo because 90% out there are fakes. you can also run anavar or winny. my choice would be the var, it has more positives than negatives and has collagen synthesis and also repairs tendons as winny will make our tendons brittle but var is expensive.

I can't get ahold of any primo, but winny and anavar are a go ahead. I have a big stock of: Epistane, H-Drol, S-Drol, Fura, and X-Mass. Is it possible to get any use out of these with a run with test, for longer more manageable gains. I would rather not use them, than use them if I can't keep any of the gains.

EDIT: just did the figures and anavar 50mg+ ED is far too expensive for me. test p and winny be good for a nice recomp? By the way, what test are you using with the primo?

 

[joeymutz]

I can't get ahold of any primo, but winny and anavar are a go ahead. I have a big stock of: Epistane, H-Drol, S-Drol, Fura, and X-Mass. Is it possible to get any use out of these with a run with test, for longer more manageable gains. I would rather not use them, than use them if I can't keep any of the gains.

EDIT: just did the figures and anavar 50mg+ ED is far too expensive for me. test p and winny be good for a nice recomp? By the way, what test are you using with the primo?

you can use those to kick start you cycle. I like the test winny idea for nice lean gains and some fat loss. The test i'm running now is transdermal test at 250mg/week. Primo i am pinning 400mg/week and seeing great results. Weight hasn't gone up much but without doing cardio and just having a good diet my body has transformed drastically. I am very happy with the results thus far. I have about 1-2 weeks left of primo then I'm going to add in sustanon at 250mg/week for 6 weeks to see how i react to pinning test.

I'm new to using real AAS but have a vast knowledge of it, I like Seth Roberts idea of moderate dose cycles for longer periods with running HCG throughout of course. MY cycle will wind up lasting 20 weeks total, and this s=is my first one. Most people advise to use 500mg test your first cycle but i see a lot of people lose over half their gains doing this so i'm trying a different method i leaned out a good amount from the primo and cant imagine losing any muscle when i come off with a proper PCT. Mine is going to be clomid 100mg first 3 days, then, 50,50,25,25 then i bought a bottle of DTP. so after that bottle is done I'm hoping for my test levels to be at least 600. then i can take a nice break and get everything ready for my next cycle next April.

 

[DenDestroys]

you can use those to kick start you cycle. I like the test winny idea for nice lean gains and some fat loss. The test i'm running now is transdermal test at 250mg/week. Primo i am pinning 400mg/week and seeing great results. Weight hasn't gone up much but without doing cardio and just having a good diet my body has transformed drastically. I am very happy with the results thus far. I have about 1-2 weeks left of primo then I'm going to add in sustanon at 250mg/week for 6 weeks to see how i react to pinning test.

I'm new to using real AAS but have a vast knowledge of it, I like Seth Roberts idea of moderate dose cycles for longer periods with running HCG throughout of course. MY cycle will wind up lasting 20 weeks total, and this s=is my first one. Most people advise to use 500mg test your first cycle but i see a lot of people lose over half their gains doing this so i'm trying a different method i leaned out a good amount from the primo and cant imagine losing any muscle when i come off with a proper PCT. Mine is going to be clomid 100mg first 3 days, then, 50,50,25,25 then i bought a bottle of DTP. so after that bottle is done I'm hoping for my test levels to be at least 600. then i can take a nice break and get everything ready for my next cycle next April.

Sounds awesome man. Keep us posted how that cycle works out for you. I like the idea of longer cycles ran with hcg ran alongside it. I'm guessing a cycle like that is 400+ so I'll be waiting 'til next summer when I can run/afford some injectibles. I stockpiled on PHs in case of ban, so now I'm sitting on 200 dollars worth of them that may never get all used, especially the superdrol clones.

By the way, being this is your first injectible cycle, have you ever had a successful run with a PH and maintained the gains?

 

[Determined 09]

Sounds awesome man. Keep us posted how that cycle works out for you. I like the idea of longer cycles ran with hcg ran alongside it. I'm guessing a cycle like that is 400+ so I'll be waiting 'til next summer when I can run/afford some injectibles. I stockpiled on PHs in case of ban, so now I'm sitting on 200 dollars worth of them that may never get all used, especially the superdrol clones.

By the way, being this is your first injectible cycle, have you ever had a successful run with a PH and maintained the gains?

Hey man not to hijack your thread but I'm about to run the H-Drol for only 4 weeks at 50mg. I'm 6ft 200. Should I go 5 weeks and up the dose? Please help! If so what dosage should I go too

Also CEL told me to use PCT Assist from day one of PCT maybe that's why you lost it all the first couple weeks?? Just a idea

 

[Bench Champ]

Strength is almost always going to go down post cycle regardless of what you do. Many of the strength gains that you get through steroids is via increased nerological drive, efficiency etc etc. No way around it. The strength will come back on the next cycle and then some. If your bodyweight stayed up dont sweat it.

Do you take an ECA stack or anything similar pre workout. That will help with strength a lot.

 

[crazyfool405]

strength will slowly get back up there maybe not 100% to what it was remember you had synthetic hormone in your body ones homeostasis occurs your strength should start climbing back up... try a nutrient shuttler

ECA sucked for my strength clen is much better

 

[neverstop]

i've successfully run oral cycles a few times, but the gains are MUCH better when you run longer cycles. of course PCT is much much harder though too. so its a balancing act, HCG must be run during any cycle longer than 5 weeks in my opinion. but you should be keeping >50% of your gains from a 6 week cycle or your doing something wrong.
i also think PCT with nolva is not the best. clomid or torem is MUCH MUCH better.

i would wait for your blood tests to make sure you're ok, wait a 2 months then do the superdrol at 20mg for 4 weeks and test cyp at 500mg/week for 10 weeks, then wait ~2 weeks after your last shot, while increasing the HCG, wait 3-4 days after your last HCG shot and start PCT.

my first real cycle was something similar but with deca instead of superdrol and it absolutely transformed my body. i kept ~14lbs and dropped bf a bit.

it usually takes a few cycles to figure out how your body like them to be run. don't be too alarmed, that is normal even though you will rarely hear from someone about how they lost 90% of their gains on this board. the fact that you are here figuring it out shows you are smarter than 99% of lifters out there. you'll get it figured out, just takes some time. it took me 2 cycles of M1T that were a total waste were i lost 100%+ of my gains to figure out how to do it properly.

i also usually start some new trendy creatine product and some No-Xplode or whatever, along with a natural test booster during PCT. this generally helps with strenght a little and mostly just keeps me interested and working hard, the psychology of PCT is the hardest part for me. losing weight and strenght is freakin depressing...haha.

 

[neverstop]

also, running test with oral cycles makes them SOOO MUCH BETTER. its not even comparable for me, i feel 100x better. the sense of "alpha male" when on 250Mg+ of test is amazing. when i do short 4 week oral cycles i just pin 1000mg of test cyp in one shot at the very beginning, and i find it helps with gains and helps with everything actually. just watch out for gyno and use Arimidex and you'll love it.

will be looking forward to seeing what your blood work looks like. failed PCT is a bia tch. dont' ask me how i know....

i'll be running a 10 week 500mg/week test cycle with some orals in September, here is the beginning of my log. its a bit more intense than what i would recommend for somebody who is new to steroids but feel free to check it out and we'll see how it works.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/133311-neverstops-lets-ruin.html#post2093518

 

[DenDestroys]

also, running test with oral cycles makes them SOOO MUCH BETTER. its not even comparable for me, i feel 100x better. the sense of "alpha male" when on 250Mg+ of test is amazing. when i do short 4 week oral cycles i just pin 1000mg of test cyp in one shot at the very beginning, and i find it helps with gains and helps with everything actually. just watch out for gyno and use Arimidex and you'll love it.

will be looking forward to seeing what your blood work looks like. failed PCT is a bia tch. dont' ask me how i know....

i'll be running a 10 week 500mg/week test cycle with some orals in September, here is the beginning of my log. its a bit more intense than what i would recommend for somebody who is new to steroids but feel free to check it out and we'll see how it works.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/133311-neverstops-lets-ruin.html#post2093518

Yup, I definitley would love to run some test after a jumpstart for 10 weeks or so. I may give orals alone one more chance this winter due to financial reasons, and because I already have the Prohormones, and for sure I will be using clomid this next time (too bad I stocked up on nolva). If I find out this next time around I lose my gains as quickly as I did on H-Drol, then no question about it I'm using test in my cycles from now on.

I had a blood test while on PCT, and my test levels showed 953, and precycle I was 525, I'm going to get another blood test here next week, officially 2 weeks after I took my last test booster capsule.

BenchChamp, I didn't use a preworkout stim, and I noticed off the bat my first week in PCT I didn't feel that drive like I did the week prior. I was afraid staying at the same weight while strength dramatically decreased, I would be converting too much of that freshly gained muscle into fat.



Crazyfool, I find myself out of breath more quickly with clen, while ECA has me a bit more driven. Must be user dependent. After I started losing strength on cycle, and staying around the same weight, I was afraid I was gonna be trading too much of these gains off for fat, so I decided to start cutting 3rd week into PCT. Not that it mattered, most strength gains disappeared by then.

Determined, 4 weeks is not long enough, especially at 50mgs. The basic setup run for H-Drol is 5 weeks at 50/50/75/75/75 - that's 2 bottles worth, though. A lot report they don't feel it kicking in until the 3rd or 4th week; I could notice my strength increasing in the 2nd week. I don't know if including PCT Assist week 1 would've made a difference or not - I definitely won't be running this same setup again.

 

[neverstop]

you should wait awhile longer after PCT to do your blood tests. all the supps you take in PCT will skew the results. nolva in particular will mess the results up so those test blood levels are not useful if you were on nolva when they were done. ideally you want to wait till you've been on NOTHING for at least 1 week or so.

test is super cheap too, probably cheaper than Hdrol, and you need nolva anyway in case of gyno, so that is not a waste also to have. i don't think that the test really helps you keep your gains, i think its more that you can run test for 5+ weeks very easily and that the longer cycles help you keep your gains. its great to run the orals first, since on superdrol you can put on 15+lbs in 4 weeks easy, then the 500mg of test allow you to basically keep that and maybe put on a few more. i also usually take 1000mg for the first shot and then 750mg for the first 2 weeks to get my test levels up quickly, then i taper off throughout the cycle.

www.roidcalc.com

if you can keep 5-8lbs off a 4 week oral cycle of something as weak as Hdrol after PCT than i would 100% say that was a success, remember that you can then take off 6-8 weeks and run another cycle, so you could do 4 cycles a year easily, where as a 10-12 week injectable cycle, you really need at least 3-4 months off between them ideally, so you an only run like 2-3 or those a year, so over the course of a year they probably aren't as different as you think.

 

[neverstop]

how did you feel on that high dose of Hdrol too man? maybe take a look at my cycle log when you get a chance, a may up my hdrol dose too 10+mg+ also.

where/how did you get your blood tests done too? i'm looking for a cheap/easy place to do this now.

 

[crazyfool405]

May wanna delete ur pricing on the test. We really shouldn't be mentioning on the forum. However domestic sources are usually 2x what u pay overseas from what I've seen and used

 

[DenDestroys]

how did you feel on that high dose of Hdrol too man? maybe take a look at my cycle log when you get a chance, a may up my hdrol dose too 10+mg+ also.

where/how did you get your blood tests done too? i'm looking for a cheap/easy place to do this now.

I just asked my primary physician if I could have one taken, and he put on the paper when i took it to the hospital "For Erectile Dysfunction" lol. But when they got the results back, he said my test levels were too high, and whatever test booster I was on I should quit taking it, then he wants to follow me up in a couple weeks after I am off of it and test them again, and this way I get a precise reading. But I could see how he's going to get skeptical of me doing this a few times a year, so in the scenario that he asks me why I want to have them done so often, I don't know how I'd reply. But you bring a good point up, I was talking to a bro at the gym yesterday and he said he has his checked twice a month, so I'll ask him how he usually brings up the bloodwork with his doc.

Heading over to your log, peace.

 

[DenDestroys]

May wanna delete ur pricing on the test. We really shouldn't be mentioning on the forum. However domestic sources are usually 2x what u pay overseas from what I've seen and used

Man, I feel bad you're finding your domestic for twice the standard. From my readings, I just understand overseas has more pharm grade stuff, while domestic is more often UG where quality is unsure.

 

[neverstop]

May wanna delete ur pricing on the test. We really shouldn't be mentioning on the forum. However domestic sources are usually 2x what u pay overseas from what I've seen and used

good point, although i was just speculating on street prices. test is usually quite cheap even when not gotten over seas.

 

[neverstop]

I just asked my primary physician if I could have one taken, and he put on the paper when i took it to the hospital "For Erectile Dysfunction" lol. But when they got the results back, he said my test levels were too high, and whatever test booster I was on I should quit taking it, then he wants to follow me up in a couple weeks after I am off of it and test them again, and this way I get a precise reading. But I could see how he's going to get skeptical of me doing this a few times a year, so in the scenario that he asks me why I want to have them done so often, I don't know how I'd reply. But you bring a good point up, I was talking to a bro at the gym yesterday and he said he has his checked twice a month, so I'll ask him how he usually brings up the bloodwork with his doc.

Heading over to your log, peace.

cool, i may do the same to get one free test out of my health insurance here soon. hahah. but ultimately most of us here end up just paying out of pocket for our tests. its really a small price to pay when compared to the consequences. will be looking forward to seeing what your eventual results are though.