Toremifene side effects

zacklewis

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Hello,

I am scheduled to use toremifene (came this morning actually) on PCT and despite reading about the side effects I am interested to know how men on this forum have reacted to it and if there are any particularly common unpleasant ones? I'm going to be using it after a relatively strong epistane cycle 30/40/40/40 and am planning to run it 120/90/60/30.
 
delsolrob

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Torem is the SERM of choice because of low sides...I haven't seen any adverse sides from Torem! (except random wood)
 
lennoxchi

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ah, yes the random wood is the (best/worst) side from Torm. i have used Torm. many times and i have to mention, other than the taste (research chem) it's great. boys came back in record time and no vision problems or headaches that i sometimes hear about w/ Nolva and clomid.
 
zacklewis

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Well I've ran 2 doses of 60 mg pharmaceutical pills 10 hours apart to test, no sides so far.
 
celc5

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IMO your cycle was mild and you're probably not completely shut down. In my experience, torem had no positive effect on libido following mild cycle, such as yours, and had some mild effects on mood for the first few days. Libido was shaky at time, more like a bit up and down at times.

After a crushing shutdown cycle, torem had a negative impact on libido and stronger mood sides intitially. Libido returned toward the end of pct, keeping in mind the stronger nature of the chosen on cycle compounds. Mood effects only lasted a few days, and leveled off shortly thereafter. I did notice a quick recovery of testicular mass after the stronger cycle, to which I suspect Torem played at least some role.
 
crazyfool405

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no need for 120mg of torem.

90/60/60/30 is sufficient.
 
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Torem has a worse incidence of side effects like liver damage, cardiomyopathy, vision issues, among others, than tamoxifen. I have the study stuck in a post I did sometime this year, I'll try and find it. If you do some quick googling you should be able too find it.
 
monsterbox

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haha i thought toremifene was great because its NOT supposed to have the nolvadex risks
 
delsolrob

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haha i thought toremifene was great because its NOT supposed to have the nolvadex risks
That was my thoughts as well!

I'll be searching on this!
 
celc5

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In terms of estrogen protection, 60/45/30/15 worked just fine.

In terms of restoring testicular mass, 120(90)/90/60/30 was waaaay faster and more pronounced.
 
crazyfool405

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In terms of estrogen protection, 60/45/30/15 worked just fine.

In terms of restoring testicular mass, 120(90)/90/60/30 was waaaay faster and more pronounced.
in which study? i have only 1 study on torem that relates to testosterone.
 
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Torem has a worse incidence of side effects like liver damage, cardiomyopathy, vision issues, among others, than tamoxifen. I have the study stuck in a post I did sometime this year, I'll try and find it. If you do some quick googling you should be able too find it.
Then it is one study in opposition to many, many studies that point in the other direction. Not saying that you didn't find that one study, but I probably have 20 on my computer showing the opposite to be true so my guess is you're confusing the two.
 
zacklewis

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The main thing which concerns me about toremifene is the blood clots so running it at 120 isn't going to be considered now. 90? Possibly, but obviously one shouldn't make decisions like that lightly.
 
bigdude08

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IMO your cycle was mild and you're probably not completely shut down. In my experience, torem had no positive effect on libido following mild cycle, such as yours, and had some mild effects on mood for the first few days. Libido was shaky at time, more like a bit up and down at times.

After a crushing shutdown cycle, torem had a negative impact on libido and stronger mood sides intitially. Libido returned toward the end of pct, keeping in mind the stronger nature of the chosen on cycle compounds. Mood effects only lasted a few days, and leveled off shortly thereafter. I did notice a quick recovery of testicular mass after the stronger cycle, to which I suspect Torem played at least some role.
This is true. I used Torem after a mild EPI cycle, and noticed that 4 days in my balls got huge (seriously), but libido wasn't there until I quit taking Torem about 4 weeks later. I used 120/90/60/30. The 120 was for the first 4 days, then i switched over to 90. I read on various other threads where people dose it as high as 180 for the first couple of days to kick things off. I also at different points in the day would get a sharp pain in the groin for the duration of my torem usage,and about 2 weeks after PCT, Libido was back, and I was growing hair all over the place, more than before, sharp pain stopped, and testicular mass came down as well.
 
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Then it is one study in opposition to many, many studies that point in the other direction. Not saying that you didn't find that one study, but I probably have 20 on my computer showing the opposite to be true so my guess is you're confusing the two.
The one that i saw was using around 500 people, over the course of many months. It was 20mg nolva vs 60mg torem.

Do you have any human studies?
 
crazyfool405

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The one that i saw was using around 500 people, over the course of many months. It was 20mg nolva vs 60mg torem.

Do you have any human studies?
can you post the study please?

and if you have more then 1 on humans in relation to the HPTA that would be awesome as well i only have one, and thats it.l

thanks
 
crazyfool405

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The one that i saw was using around 500 people, over the course of many months. It was 20mg nolva vs 60mg torem.

Do you have any human studies?
can you post the study please?

and if you have more then 1 on humans in relation to the HPTA that would be awesome as well i only have one, and thats it.l

thanks
 
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can you post the study please?

and if you have more then 1 on humans in relation to the HPTA that would be awesome as well i only have one, and thats it.l

thanks
As soon as I find it I'll throw it up, I've been digging through old posts trying to find it, problem is I'm not subscribed to that particular thread any longer.

The only study I have refers too side effects, no mention that I remember of the HPTA.
 
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I found a summary of the study, and a few more, all put into one graph.

Its page 3.

http://www.rxlist.com/fareston-drug.htm

It shows torem having higher incidence of cardiac failure, cataracts, Corneal Keratopathy, glaucoma, Pulmonary Embolism, CVA/TIA(strokes), elevated SGOT, and alkaline phosphates. In north american test subjects.
 
crazyfool405

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i found this on another forum

Toremifene, a nonsteroidal triphenylethylene-derivative, is an estrogen agonist-antagonist.

Toremifene is structurally and pharmacologically related to tamoxifen, and the drugs also have been referred to as antiestrogens since they previously were thought to be devoid of clinically important estrogen agonist activity. However, like tamoxifen, toremifene exhibits both estrogen agonist and antagonist (antiestrogen) activity, and the pharmacologic profiles of the 2 drugs are similar. This estrogen agonist and antagonist activity also is shared by several agents with differing chemical structure and pharmacologic activity, such as raloxifene and clomiphene.

The degree of antiestrogenic and/or estrogenic effect of toremifene is influenced by factors such as duration of treatment, target organ, gender, and species; nonsteroidal triphenylethylene derivatives, such as toremifene, generally have a stronger antiestrogenic effect in humans and rats and a mainly estrogenic effect in mice. Toremifene acts as an estrogen antagonist on breast tissue. The antiestrogenic activity of toremifene is demonstrated by a decrease in the estradiol-induced cornification index, which has been observed in some postmenopausal women receiving the drug. Toremifene has weak estrogen-like effects in several sites, including endometrium, bone, and lipids. The estrogenic activity of toremifene has been demonstrated by decreases in serum gonadotropin (follicle-stimulating hormone [FSH] and luteinizing hormone [LH]) concentrations.

Toremifene differs from tamoxifen by chlorination of the ethyl side chain, which reduces its antiestrogenic potency and antitumor potency; further study is needed to establish the comparative risk of carcinogenicity (e.g., uterine cancer, hepatocellular cancer) associated with these agents.

•Effects on the Breast

The principal mechanism of toremifene in breast cancer is thought to involve its antiestrogenic effect through competitive binding of the drug to estrogen receptors in the cancer, thus blocking tumor growth stimulated by estrogen. In rats, toremifene has been shown to cause regression of dimethylbenzanthracene-induced mammary tumors. In addition, toremifene may inhibit tumor growth through other mechanisms, such as induction of apoptosis and regulation of oncogene expression and growth factors.

•Effects on Lipoproteins

Limited data indicate that toremifene, like tamoxifen, reduces serum concentrations of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein (LDL)-cholesterol. Although toremifene increased serum concentrations of high-density lipoprotein (HDL)-cholesterol in one study, no effect was observed in another study; HDL-cholesterol concentrations appear to be marginally affected by tamoxifen. Long-term studies are needed to determine the effects of toremifene on serum cholesterol concentrations and cardiovascular risk.

•Effects on Bone

The effect of toremifene on bone density and risk of osteoporosis or osteopenia has not been established.

•Effects on the Uterus

Like tamoxifen, toremifene has estrogenic effects on the uterus (i.e., increase in endometrial thickness), and endometrial cancer has been reported in patients receiving toremifene. (See Carcinogenicity: Uterine Cancer in Cautions: Mutagenicity and Carcinogenicity.)



Pharmacokinetics



•Absorption

Toremifene is well absorbed following oral administration. Absorption of the drug is not affected by food. Peak plasma concentrations of toremifene are achieved within 3 hours following oral administration of the drug. Toremifene undergoes enterohepatic circulation. (See Pharmacokinetics: Elimination.) Toremifene displays linear pharmacokinetics after single oral doses of 10–680 mg and dose proportionality after multiple doses of 10–400 mg. Steady-state concentrations of the drug are reached after 4–6 weeks of daily toremifene administration.


•Distribution

The apparent volume of distribution of toremifene is 580 L. The drug binds extensively (greater than 99.5%) to serum proteins, principally albumin. It is not known if toremifene is distributed into milk in humans; however, the drug is distributed into milk in rats. Toremifene has been shown to cross the placenta and accumulate in the fetus in rodents.


•Elimination

Plasma concentrations of toremifene appear to decline in a biphasic manner, with a mean distribution half-life of about 4 hours and a mean elimination half-life of about 5 days. The mean total clearance of toremifene is approximately 5 L/hour.

Toremifene is extensively metabolized in the liver. The drug is metabolized mainly by cytochrome P-450 isoenzyme 3A4 to N-demethyltoremifene, which is antiestrogenic but has weak antitumor potency in vivo. At steady state, serum concentrations of N-demethyltoremifene are 2–4 times higher than those of toremifene. The elimination half-lives of N-demethyltoremifene and (deaminohydroxy) toremifene (another major metabolite) are reported to be 6 and 4 days, respectively.

Toremifene is predominantly excreted in feces as metabolites, with about 10% of an administered dose excreted in urine during a 1-week period. Toremifene undergoes enterohepatic circulation, which contributes to its slow elimination.

The pharmacokinetics of toremifene citrate and N-demethyltoremifene are not altered in patients with renal impairment. The elimination of toremifene is affected by hepatic dysfunction; in 10 patients with hepatic impairment secondary to cirrhosis or fibrosis, the mean elimination half-life of toremifene was increased by less than twofold compared with that in individuals with normal hepatic function. No effect on the pharmacokinetics of N-demethyltoremifene was observed in patients with hepatic impairment.

Increases in the elimination half-life (7.2 versus 4.2 days) and the volume of distribution (627 versus 457 L) compared with values observed in healthy young males were reported in geriatric female patients receiving a single 120-mg dose of toremifene under fasting conditions; however, clearance and area under the plasma concentration-time curve were not altered.

The pharmacokinetics of toremifene have not been evaluated separately by race; 86% of the patients in the North American study were white.



Label Warnings



Lactation

Absolute Contraindication:

ANIMAL STUDIES SUGGEST EXCRETION OCCURS;POTENTIAL SERIOUS ADVER EFF ON INFANT

Pregnancy

Not Recommended



Adverse Effects



Most Frequent:

Drug-Induced Hepatiti, Nausea, Vasomotor Symptoms associated with Menopause

Less Frequent:

Bone Pain, Cataracts, Disorder of Cornea, Dizziness, Dry Eyes, Endometrial Hyperplasia, Glaucoma, Hypercalcemia, Visual Field Defect, Vomiting

Rare:

Acute ST Elevation Myocardial Infarction, Heart Failure, Pulmonary Thromboembolism, Thrombophlebitis, Thrombotic Disorder



Drug-Disease Contraindications



Most Significant

Lactating Mother, Pregnancy, Thromboembolic Disorder

Significant

Endometrial Hyperplasia, Hypercalcemia, Leukopenia, Thrombocytopenic Disorder
 
crazyfool405

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i didnt see any comparison between the 2. Plus the dosage was 400mg, am I not reading it correctly?
In phase II clinical trials of toremifene
in post-menopausal patients with hormone receptor-
positive, metastatic breast cancer and no prior
tamoxifen exposure, doses of 60 rag/day for 12
weeks or longer produced response rates of 48-
54%, with a toxicity profile comparable to tamoxifen
[7, 8]. At high doses, toremifene exhibited an
antitumor effect in mice with ER-negative uterine
sarcomas, and a cytolytic effect independent of anti-
estrogen action was postulated [2].
 
swankinrosco

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What's the verdict here, guys? I'm going to order a new SERM, should I get tamox or torem?
 
CopyCat

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I picked up Torem for my havoc run coming up.
 
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In phase II clinical trials of toremifene
in post-menopausal patients with hormone receptor-
positive, metastatic breast cancer and no prior
tamoxifen exposure, doses of 60 rag/day for 12
weeks or longer produced response rates of 48-
54%, with a toxicity profile comparable to tamoxifen
[7, 8]. At high doses, toremifene exhibited an
antitumor effect in mice with ER-negative uterine
sarcomas, and a cytolytic effect independent of anti-
estrogen action was postulated [2].
I saw that part, I thought you saw a part that went more in depth. But yes, tamox is comparable to torem. Thats not really any judgement for or against though.
 
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chart at thr bottome shows sides and ED and Libido are on the list.
Oh I know, Im just saying: that is only a study comparing different doses of the same drug, torem. Not a comparison between the 2.
 
crazyfool405

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Oh I know, Im just saying: that is only a study comparing different doses of the same drug, torem. Not a comparison between the 2.

simply put neither were made specifically for the release of LH and FSH like clomid was, end of story IMO. can they be used? yea, but are they as effective? probably not.
 
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simply put neither were made specifically for the release of LH and FSH like clomid was, end of story IMO. can they be used? yea, but are they as effective? probably not.
Theres no question the clomid is vastly superior to either of those, in kick starting you nuts back into production.

But as far as between tamox, and torem. I would go with tamox. Its great for estrogenic sides, its cheap, its effective. I personally use a combonation of the 2. Clomid first half of pct, nolva at the end. The beginning jumpstarts, the end takes care of any estrogen.
 
monsterbox

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Theres no question the clomid is vastly superior to either of those, in kick starting you nuts back into production.

But as far as between tamox, and torem. I would go with tamox. Its great for estrogenic sides, its cheap, its effective. I personally use a combonation of the 2. Clomid first half of pct, nolva at the end. The beginning jumpstarts, the end takes care of any estrogen.
have you tired tore? I've heard it makes your nuts come back REALLY fast...faster than clomid from user reports?
 
crazyfool405

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have you tired tore? I've heard it makes your nuts come back REALLY fast...faster than clomid from user reports?
torem isnt as good on lipid profiles which is nedded Post cycle as well. so tamox is better for that, and the sides are the same for the most part. and you need a much higher dose of torem. to = that of tamox
 
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have you tired tore? I've heard it makes your nuts come back REALLY fast...faster than clomid from user reports?
I have not personally used torem, I have not seen any evidence that it would give me an advantage over clomid/tamox


torem isnt as good on lipid profiles which is nedded Post cycle as well. so tamox is better for that, and the sides are the same for the most part. and you need a much higher dose of torem. to = that of tamox
For sure.
 
zacklewis

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I might give clomid a run sometime myself but spent a lot of money on the toremifene so that will have to do me first.
 
crazyfool405

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clomid and tamox if much more cost efficent then torem also.
 
celc5

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in which study? i have only 1 study on torem that relates to testosterone.
Sorry for the misleading post, but I was just sharing my personal experience with torem. Anecdotally, I had no estrogenic symptoms even with a low dose. I had impressively fast testicular mass recovery with the typical higher "broski" dose.

If I had a study that described Torem's effect on the hpta, I'd certainly share it. From what I understand, Clomid has the highest affinity for gonadotrope cells in the brain making it theoretically the most effective for hpta recovery. On the flip side, Nolva has a high effinity for estrogen receptors in breast tissue making it pretty effective for gyno prevention. Supposedly, Ralox and Torem are more similar to Nolva and therefore probably rank about the same as Nolva in terms of gyno prevention vs. hpta recovery. That being said, I'd guess that Nolva (and similar serms) still play SOME role in hpta recovery while Clomid may still have SOME role in gyno prevention.

Disclaimer: that above paragraph is PARROTED and not due to my own research or my own knowledge. It's just a summary of the info that I've gotten on various boards since my serm knowledge is relatively weak.
 
crazyfool405

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Sorry for the misleading post, but I was just sharing my personal experience with torem. Anecdotally, I had no estrogenic symptoms even with a low dose. I had impressively fast testicular mass recovery with the typical higher "broski" dose.

If I had a study that described Torem's effect on the hpta, I'd certainly share it. From what I understand, Clomid has the highest affinity for gonadotrope cells in the brain making it theoretically the most effective for hpta recovery. On the flip side, Nolva has a high effinity for estrogen receptors in breast tissue making it pretty effective for gyno prevention. Supposedly, Ralox and Torem are more similar to Nolva and therefore probably rank about the same as Nolva in terms of gyno prevention vs. hpta recovery. That being said, I'd guess that Nolva (and similar serms) still play SOME role in hpta recovery while Clomid may still have SOME role in gyno prevention.

Disclaimer: that above paragraph is PARROTED and not due to my own research or my own knowledge. It's just a summary of the info that I've gotten on various boards since my serm knowledge is relatively weak.
for the most part you are right

torem and nolva and raloxifen bind stronger to the ERa then clomid does.

Torem and nolva are superior to Raloxifen in terms of HPTA recovery. Raloxifen also has ridiculously crazy sides.

Clomid binds much weaker the the breast tissue but exerts a much better stimulation on the HPTA

torem tamox and ralox are better for gyno but not as good as clomid for HPTA recovery.
 
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for the most part you are right

torem and nolva and raloxifen bind stronger to the ERa then clomid does.

Torem and nolva are superior to Raloxifen in terms of HPTA recovery. Raloxifen also has ridiculously crazy sides.

Clomid binds much weaker the the breast tissue but exerts a much better stimulation on the HPTA

torem tamox and ralox are better for gyno but not as good as clomid for HPTA recovery.

Glad I found this thread - good info! So, if my biggest concern is gyno, then tamox would be the better choice. For little nuts, then clomid. If I had clomid on hand, and started noticing signs of gyno, how effective would it be in controlling the gyno? I've just read too many negatives about nolva, although I wouldn't rule it out completely. Also, are all liquid serms suspended in alchohol?
 
crazyfool405

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Glad I found this thread - good info! So, if my biggest concern is gyno, then tamox would be the better choice. For little nuts, then clomid. If I had clomid on hand, and started noticing signs of gyno, how effective would it be in controlling the gyno? I've just read too many negatives about nolva, although I wouldn't rule it out completely. Also, are all liquid serms suspended in alchohol?

clomid most likely wont do much if anything for gyno, Adex will though and is always my first choise. (got rid of my lump in about 1 week (1mg EOD))

yea most of the SERMs are suspended in ethanol
 
monsterbox

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clomid most likely wont do much if anything for gyno, Adex will though and is always my first choise. (got rid of my lump in about 1 week (1mg EOD))

yea most of the SERMs are suspended in ethanol

Adex over letro for gyno?

Does adex have the libido sides of letro?
 
celc5

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clomid most likely wont do much if anything for gyno, Adex will though and is always my first choise. (got rid of my lump in about 1 week (1mg EOD))

yea most of the SERMs are suspended in ethanol
I've heard of some actual estrogenic gyno-causing potential with Clomid. Do you have any comments to support or dispel that rumor? I've never personally used Clomid btw.
 
crazyfool405

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I've heard of some actual estrogenic gyno-causing potential with Clomid. Do you have any comments to support or dispel that rumor? I've never personally used Clomid btw.

yea use an AI with it like you should with every PCT.
 

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