Testing Toremifene against tamoxifene

[monsterbox]

Want to run a very serious bulking cycle in jan. but afraid to touch tamoxifene citrate as everytime I've used it I had extremely adverse libido loss as a side effect.

I've heard great things about toremifene even though its close to the same compound as nolva, people have reported only positive increase or neutral response in libido and stable mood vs tamoxifene.



So, I want to test this stuff out before purchasing everything else and running a cycle.

I ordered research chemical form of Toremifene Citrate. 1800mg - 30ml bottle.

I want to use the least amount possible but just enough to asses side effects so I can save it or ditch it for my cycle.

How much should I take and how long should I take it so that it will have built up enough to show its ass or beauty?

Should I run like 60mg for 3 days dosed at night? Will this give me an accurate Idea of what pct of 120/90/60/30 will be like on this sh*t?


I'm praying for a christmas wish that this sh*t won't affect me negatively like nolvadex....if it does I might just give up on steroids as I can't cope with any SERM based PCT.

 

[Problem]

Why don't you just get a hold of clomid?

 

[TripDog]

subbed for support.

 

[Grambo]

Toremifene blows Nolva and Clomid out of the water. I noticed no sides at all from it in several consecutive uses. I think 60 fro a few days should give you and idea if you have any adverse sides. Seriously, with this stuff I came off cycles and feel great and balls back to normal in a week or less. It is also less toxic than Nolva and no emotional sides that clomid can bring on.

Note: A side effect that can occur at high dosages, though never personally found out (Ran 3 times), is.....spontaneous ejaculation lol whatver that is.....

 

[monsterbox]

damn! sounds like a miracle drug if it works like that for me!

I've been DYING to try

Superdrol and Pheraplex but have been afraid to because I HATE NOLVADEX and Clomid make you menstrate.

 

[Grambo]

I hope it works for you, im sure it can handle some Super/Phera. Recovered me from 6weeks of Test P/Tren A/Anavar.....talk about shut down :lol:

 

[WeightShift]

Hey bro.

Torem is still relatively new as far as studies go, but so far its blowing nolva out of the water.

5x more potent androgenicity:estrogenicity than Nolva while maintaining the same beneficial properties of Nolva (increase bone density, lower LDL). As well, its been reported that Torem may effectively destroy gyno build up.

Good luck man, looking forward to see how things go.

 

[ABNRanger]

I have never used it, but will be after my epi cycle. I know that poopypants used it for his cycle, and he said it worked GREAT for him. In fact it even reversed his gyno.

 

[crazyfool405]

Hey bro.

Torem is still relatively new as far as studies go, but so far its blowing nolva out of the water.

5x more potent androgenicity:estrogenicity than Nolva while maintaining the same beneficial properties of Nolva (increase bone density, lower LDL). As well, its been reported that Torem may effectively destroy gyno build up.

Good luck man, looking forward to see how things go.

how will it effect the PR?

and how will this increase in androgenicy effect recovery?

I feel like its soo very new, there are studies on this and men, but not too many that i have found, Clomid is tried and true, and has numerous studies.

 

[Grambo]

It's not that new, I mean it is compared to clomid and Nolva, but I mean its been available for research since at leasr 2006. He said he had issues with both of the aformentioned products so he is in need of somethin new. Torem fits the bill and I hope it works because I enjoyed it.

 

[crazyfool405]

It's not that new, I mean it is compared to clomid and Nolva, but I mean its been available for research since at leasr 2006. He said he had issues with both of the aformentioned products so he is in need of somethin new. Torem fits the bill and I hope it works because I enjoyed it.

just nolva, not clomid

Torem increases test better then Ralox which counts that one out,

beat nolva because theres no liver toxicity associated with it.

So for now its between clomid and Torem.

i only found like 2 studies on it in men that it showed an increase in GnRH.

but it lowers Estradiol and that was noted in :

Hormonal effects of toremifene in breast cancer patients.
Számel I, Vincze B, Hindy I, Kerpel-Fronius S, Eckhardt S, Mäenpää J, Grönroos M, Kangas L, Sundquist H, Hajba A.

National Institute of Oncology, Budapest, Hungary.

The effect of toremifene treatment on the serum levels of sex steroids (estradiol, progesterone, testosterone), FSH, LH, prolactin, TSH, T3, T4 and SHBG was investigated. Basal prolactin level and the "prolactin reserve capacity" of the hypophysis was also studied by the TRH functional test. Steroid hormone receptors were detected in the patients where a tumor biopsy could be obtained. In a randomized trial patients were treated by 60 and 300 mg of toremifene per os, daily. Hormone levels were assayed prior to treatment and at the 2nd, 6th, 8th and 12th week of tormifene therapy. The hormonal effects of toremifene were the most marked at the 2nd and at the 8th week. Estradiol decreased continuously, SHBG increased slightly and the high initial value of basal prolactin level decreased. The TRH-induced prolactin release was suppressed by tormifene after an 8-week period. No clinical response-related tendency was found.

clomid has been found just as effective. however torem because it binds tighter then clomid and the same as nolva makes it better then nolva

i want to see a comparitive study on TOREM VS CLOMID

 

[crazyfool405]

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/onctools/labels.cfm?GN=toremifene

 

[WeightShift]

how will it effect the PR?

and how will this increase in androgenicy effect recovery?

I feel like its soo very new, there are studies on this and men, but not too many that i have found, Clomid is tried and true, and has numerous studies.

Thats a great question that I'll have to modestly defer for now. I'll sit down with my girlfriend tomorrow morning as she is a medical student and could tie these pathways together better than me.

If I had to theory craft though, I'd say it should be a synergistic process for quick equalization.

Mid PCT:
1) Torem fully suppresses estrogen receptors 2) Testosterone surges 3) Progesterone conversion is minimal due to absence or near absence of estrogen.

Late PCT:
1) Tapering off of Torem allows ER turnover. 2) Estrogen levels rise 3) Progesterone receptors are induced by estrogen. 4) Progesterone converts to androstenedione 5) Androstenedione further differentiates to estradiol and testosterone.

Forgive the liberties taken to simplify it. It doesn't seem dissimilar to any other SERM, but if you consider that Torem has produced undetectable estrogen levels in blood tests... estrogen rebound from torem would be especially potent due to the flooding of PR.

I'll try to get more detailed information for you.

 

[crazyfool405]

Thats a great question that I'll have to modestly defer for now. I'll sit down with my girlfriend tomorrow morning as she is a medical student and could tie these pathways together better than me.

If I had to theory craft though, I'd say it should be a synergistic process for quick equalization.

Mid PCT:
1) Torem fully suppresses estrogen receptors 2) Testosterone surges 3) Progesterone conversion is minimal due to absence or near absence of estrogen.

Late PCT:
1) Tapering off of Torem allows ER turnover. 2) Estrogen levels rise 3) Progesterone receptors are induced by estrogen. 4) Progesterone converts to androstenedione 5) Androstenedione further differentiates to estradiol and testosterone.

Forgive the liberties taken to simplify it. It doesn't seem dissimilar to any other SERM, but if you consider that Torem has produced undetectable estrogen levels in blood tests... estrogen rebound from torem would be especially potent due to the flooding of PR.

I'll try to get more detailed information for you.

and being that its basically tamoxifen, the IGF1 out put will be signifigantly lower,

from what i read it will signifigantly lower E2, but not that much, but the action seems similar to that of an AI as well (probably due to the chloro) but i dont know

 

[Kristofer68SS]

jumping in to learn more about L-tor.

 

[Aggravated]

It seems that a lot of the guys here really like Torem. It's worth it to test. People say it gets them started back up quicker than Nolva.

 

[WeightShift]

It seems that a lot of the guys here really like Torem. It's worth it to test. People say it gets them started back up quicker than Nolva.

That is because it is more potent and causes receptor inhibition on nearly 100% scale.

All signs SO FAR point to Torem being the next generation SERM, but as crazyfool has been trying to say, its still new (wasn't even approved until 99) and studies are likely being done by companies most likely to profit at this point.

However, when you combine testimony & these studies, there definitely seems to be incredible potential.

 

[crazyfool405]

That is because it is more potent and causes receptor inhibition on nearly 100% scale.

All signs SO FAR point to Torem being the next generation SERM, but as crazyfool has been trying to say, its still new (wasn't even approved until 99) and studies are likely being done by companies most likely to profit at this point.

However, when you combine testimony & these studies, there definitely seems to be incredible potential.

torem Clomid would be the best PCT out there if based on paper evidence bue to Torems ability to lower E2 and displace estrogen

 

[WeightShift]

torem Clomid would be the best PCT out there if based on paper evidence bue to Torems ability to lower E2 and displace estrogen

If you play that card though, you have to be fair and mention that Clomid reduces the responsiveness of LH to GnRH!

 

[monsterbox]

If you play that card though, you have to be fair and mention that Clomid reduces the responsiveness of LH to GnRH!

is this true? Like desensatizes the lydig cells like HCG?

 

[WeightShift]

is this true? Like desensatizes the lydig cells like HCG?

Well, its actually earlier in the process. The GnRH still releases LH, but not as readily as usual or in comparison to Nolva. This is why most women on clomid are supplemented by hCG.

 

[crazyfool405]

If you play that card though, you have to be fair and mention that Clomid reduces the responsiveness of LH to GnRH!

ehh, i dont know how likely that is when u involve an AI ... the synthetic estrogen is what does that to the pituitary. another reason why i use an AI in PCT

 

[crazyfool405]

is this true? Like desensatizes the lydig cells like HCG?

if u involve nolva (or any SERM really) or an AI, it doesnt sensitize it that much.

 

[monsterbox]

I've been thinking about doing this for PCT.

Torem 90/60/60/30
Reversitol (includes 6bromo/ATD) 0/0/3/2/2/2/1 (yes 5 weeks)

Im just delaying the AI for 2 week on the SERM. This way estrogen will have a chance to return and trigger testosterone back. Then Ill start controlling the estrogen itself with the AI at week 3 while tapering off the SERM?

Do I really need the AI tapered up in the beginning?

 

[crazyfool405]

I've been thinking about doing this for PCT.

Torem 90/60/60/30
Reversitol (includes 6bromo/ATD) 0/0/3/2/2/2/1 (yes 5 weeks)

Im just delaying the AI for 2 week on the SERM. This way estrogen will have a chance to return and trigger testosterone back. Then Ill start controlling the estrogen itself with the AI at week 3 while tapering off the SERM?

Do I really need the AI tapered up in the beginning?

Seems like e2 levels are decreased with Torem so the need for an AI isnt really there...

something like PCS would be a good test booster on top of Torem

 

[crazyfool405]

straight from JUMBO PALUMBO
What knowledge do you have on TOREM VS CLOMID- how is one better then the other.?
TOREMIFENE, like tamoxifen (Nolvadex) is an estrogen receptor antagonist. That is, it blocks estrogen receptors and prevents estrogen from exerting its effects. Clomid is a weaker estrogen receptor blocker but is a strong Pituitary gland stimulator of LH/FSH. This makes Clomid extremely valuable when attempting to TURN ON pituitary function after a long cycle. In my opinion, both Toremifene and Tamoxifen are both far inferior to aromatase inhibitors which block the actual production of estrogen to begin with.

 

[WeightShift]

That's good to know.

It is still subject to personal preference and opinion though.

 

[raginfcktard]

subbed for spontaneous ejaculation!

 

[crazyfool405]

That's good to know.

It is still subject to personal preference and opinion though.

im partial to clomid. i like it a lot. i dont see the need to use torem, i dont know enough about it.

ive seen 2 studies on men 1 for prostate cancer, and one for idiopathic oligozoospermia

and that is all

 

[monsterbox]

well looks like paper evidence is showing clomid should be better. however, clomid has been around forever so of course theres more evidence supporting clomid

but seems like people that have tried it love toremifene. Dr.D says its his favorite. Tons of other people say it brings them back quicker than clomid and nolva. Maybe clomid is better but probably requires higher dosages for pituitary stimulation and clomid has the most side effects.


My experience with nolva was horrible. It didn't bring me back at all, it made me feel terrible, masked my libido, and gave me emotional sides....Reversitol was ten times better for me on my last cycle and surely isnt a SERM. So I hope toremifene works.



Also,
If E2 seems to be reduced with Torem, Id still like to use an AI at low dosages simply because I dont want E2 rebound.

 

[monsterbox]

I just realized I ordered a 30ML bottle with 1800mg!!!

This is SO small...30ml is two tablespoons.

1ml of this equals 60mg....thats only 1 tiny eye droplet size. Can 1 tiny droplet of some liquid research chemical ACTUALLY equal 60mg...this sounds rediculous that a tiny drop could make it into your blood stream accurately.

How the hell do I measure out 30mg....a half of a dropper. Or 90mg (1.5 droppers)?

Looks like i'd half to just run 120/60/60/few days more of 60?

Why don't companies disolve this stuff into larger quanitity of liquid so its easier to measure out...

I really dont want to have to buy a syringe and needle

 

[WeightShift]

Most research chem companies will include a measured oral syringe. If not, go buy one from a local pharmacy.

 

[crazyfool405]

I just realized I ordered a 30ML bottle with 1800mg!!!

This is SO small...30ml is two tablespoons.

1ml of this equals 60mg....thats only 1 tiny eye droplet size. Can 1 tiny droplet of some liquid research chemical ACTUALLY equal 60mg...this sounds rediculous that a tiny drop could make it into your blood stream accurately.

How the hell do I measure out 30mg....a half of a dropper. Or 90mg (1.5 droppers)?

Looks like i'd half to just run 120/60/60/few days more of 60?

Why don't companies disolve this stuff into larger quanitity of liquid so its easier to measure out...

I really dont want to have to buy a syringe and needle

from what i read theres no reason to go over 90 mg, but up to 300 mg is safe....

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Here is what you need. Numerous places to get them. Online, local pharmacy, some grocery stores.

1ml Oral syringe.

 

[dg806]

my torem is 60mg/ml. So if you take 1 ml per day and your bottle is 30ml, you have a 30 day supply. And all RC I have seen come in 30ml.

Edit.....Sorry it's 50mg/ml

 

[monsterbox]

excellent thanks guys

 

[Kristofer68SS]

you mean this stuff. 30ml-50mg/ml=1500mg 25 days @ 60mg i believe.

 

[monsterbox]

i havent recieved mine yet its in the mail but the stuff I ordered said 1800mg at 60mg/ml

 

[CopyCat]

in on this as well

 

[thegodfather]

I've got a fresh bottle of Tamox, but I think I'll be trying Torem next time around.

 

[WeightShift]

I've got a fresh bottle of Tamox, but I think I'll be trying Torem next time around.

I'm anxious to hear your and monsterbox's testimonies.

 

[monsterbox]

took 75mg....1.25ml = 1/4 teaspoon of this sh*t.

It doesn't taste good but its such a small amount that I do not notice. Why do so many people cry about the taste.

Anyhow, its been about 6 hours....nothing no sides at all.

Of course, it probably takes a day or two to start working..

Should I be breaking the dosage into 30mg at night and morning? I want to run btw 60-80mg for 3 days.




I must note that within the first few hours of tamoxifene at 40mg, I noticed a difference in mood and sex drive

 

[Kristofer68SS]

took 75mg....1.25ml = 1/4 teaspoon of this sh*t.

It doesn't taste good but its such a small amount that I do not notice. Why do so many people cry about the taste.

Anyhow, its been about 6 hours....nothing no sides at all.

Of course, it probably takes a day or two to start working..

Should I be breaking the dosage into 30mg at night and morning? I want to run btw 60-80mg for 3 days.




I must note that within the first few hours of tamoxifene at 40mg, I noticed a difference in mood and sex drive

I always added my liquid suspended chems to a half full water bottle and dosed it that way.

 

[WeightShift]

I always added my liquid suspended chems to a half full water bottle and dosed it that way.

Similar here. I just draw what I need into the syringe and then draw water to fill the rest of it.

 

[Grambo]

took 75mg....1.25ml = 1/4 teaspoon of this sh*t.

It doesn't taste good but its such a small amount that I do not notice. Why do so many people cry about the taste.

Anyhow, its been about 6 hours....nothing no sides at all.

Of course, it probably takes a day or two to start working..

Should I be breaking the dosage into 30mg at night and morning? I want to run btw 60-80mg for 3 days.




I must note that within the first few hours of tamoxifene at 40mg, I noticed a difference in mood and sex drive

No need to break it up, once a day is fine and what I have always done. Good to know you feel so good so far. The amount is small who cares that it tastes like the worst liquid ever lol

 

[crazyfool405]

No need to break it up, once a day is fine and what I have always done. Good to know you feel so good so far. The amount is small who cares that it tastes like the worst liquid ever lol

i like breaking it up when the doses get kinda high, for example i was doing 100mg clomid i would do 50 in the morn and 50 at night.

if i were doing 90mg torem i would do 45 and 45, and then when 60mg 30 and 30 , then when i get to 30 mg i would just do 1 dose. i feel better that way, i duno why:bb3:

 

[hardknock]

straight from JUMBO PALUMBO
What knowledge do you have on TOREM VS CLOMID- how is one better then the other.?
TOREMIFENE, like tamoxifen (Nolvadex) is an estrogen receptor antagonist. That is, it blocks estrogen receptors and prevents estrogen from exerting its effects. Clomid is a weaker estrogen receptor blocker but is a strong Pituitary gland stimulator of LH/FSH. This makes Clomid extremely valuable when attempting to TURN ON pituitary function after a long cycle. In my opinion, both Toremifene and Tamoxifen are both far inferior to aromatase inhibitors which block the actual production of estrogen to begin with.

He says "after a long cycle"

I guess you can make the argument that this is subjective the the cycle length? No? Are we talking 4 week orals proH, or 10 week injections?

BTW: Thanks for the link concerning prolactin and pregnant women.

 

[hardknock]

The company that I got mine from, back in the day, including a "pump" dropper which you could just vacuum the correct amount out and shoot that crap to the back of your throat ... that is what i did, ahhh, great days.

 

[crazyfool405]

He says "after a long cycle"

I guess you can make the argument that this is subjective the the cycle length? No? Are we talking 4 week orals proH, or 10 week injections?

BTW: Thanks for the link concerning prolactin and pregnant women.

i think its relative to shutdown, either way you need to restart.

and your welcome

 

[thegodfather]

Started PCT today with 20 mgs of Nolva, 100mgs of 7keto, and 50 mgs of Zinc. I can already feel the pumped feeling while being on Epi going away. Kinda sucks, but thats the reality of doing these things. I also started taking Creatine as well. I've done PCT in the past with and without Zinc and I feel the Zinc REALLY helps in getting things going again quickly. I've gained a few pounds off this cycle, but I cut down a lot on BF. I'll try and get a pic up sometime soon.