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Still shutdown ended cycle on oct.7th

Soad

Soad

Member
I took a omnevol and bold 200 and didnt post cycle very well just used pct tabs and rev.. i no terrible. im still shutdown so i think because my balls havent really returned, i want to get my balls back so i can start another cycle i have a crazy amount of aas and phs right now. wat to take to bring me back.
 
okay,

can you get hcg?

if not you need insulin as it has positive affect on GNRH,

if you get hcg try 1000iu twice a week, take 500iu twice a week for three weeks the whole time taking arimidex or some sort of AI, dont go too crazy on AI though...then do clomid/nolva for another month or Torem for one month. Take nettle extract (divanex) while on SERM as they can raise SHBG. wait for a month (keep taking divanex) then take see what happens, you wont be jumpin on that cycle for a loooong time. well thats IF you want your balls back prior to cycle. Can't guarantee if this will work but thats what i would do man.

as for insulin, its dangerous so READ about the usage and timing, or you will DIE.

i do 4 iu during PCT with SERM along with igf or related peptides, there is no crash or anything like that...although i used hcg during my cycle and came off before PCT started.

below is the studies which datbtrue found, so the credit goes to him and his thread which can be found at dat's protocol to cjc/ghrp

"Previous studies have shown that insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LH synthesis and release from primary gonadotrophs. In this study, regulation of LHbeta gene expression by GnRH and insulin was examined in LbetaT2 cells. Endogenous LHbeta mRNA is stimulated 2.4-fold by insulin alone, 2.6-fold by GnRH alone, and 4.7-fold by insulin together with GnRH. This effect of insulin, like GnRH, mapped to sequences -140 to +1 in the mouse LHbeta gene. Insulin together with GnRH stimulates activity of an LHbeta-reporter gene 7.1-fold; whereas, GnRH alone or insulin alone stimulates the reporter activity 2.8- and 3.1-fold, respectively. Blocking the binding of Egr-1 to sequences -51 to -42 in the LHbeta gene inhibits effects of insulin and GnRH. Insulin together with GnRH increases Egr-1 mRNA levels and total Egr-1 binding to LHbeta DNA. These findings indicate that insulin may impact regulation of the reproductive axis at the level of the pituitary. - Insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LHbeta gene expression by Egr-1, Buggs C, et al., Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2006 Apr 25;249(1-2):99-106

"Our findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release." - Insulin enhancement of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release by cultured pituitary cells, EY Adashi, Endocrinology, Vol 108, 1441-1449


The effects of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and insulin on the function of coho salmon gonadotropes in vitro were investigated. Dispersed pituitary cells from immature coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) were incubated with IGF-I for 1, 3, 7, or 10 days, then incubated with salmon GnRH for an additional 24 h. Medium FSH content before and after GnRH treatment and intracellular FSH content after GnRH treatment were measured. Incubation of pituitary cells with IGF-I for 7 or 10 days increased GnRH-stimulated FSH release and remaining cell content, but did not affect basal release. To examine the specificity of the effects of IGF-I, we compared FSH release and cell content of FSH and LH after 10-day incubation with a range of concentrations of IGF-I or insulin. Incubation with physiological concentrations of IGF-I resulted in significantly higher GnRH-stimulated FSH release and remaining cell content of FSH and LH. Conversely, supraphysiological concentrations of insulin were required to produce more moderate effects on gonadotropin levels. These results suggest that elevation of gonadotropin levels by IGF-I may be one mechanism by which somatic growth and nutrition promote pubertal development in salmon. - Insulin-Like Growth Factor I Increases Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH) Content and Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone-Stimulated FSH Release from Coho Salmon Pituitary Cells In Vitro, Dianne M. Baker et al., Biology of Reproduction 63, 865-871 (2000)


Changes in the plasma levels of corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) from birth to adulthood suggest that growth factors might influence clearance and/or hepatic secretion of CBG and SHBG in humans. The effects of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and insulin on CBG and SHBG synthesis by a clone of human hepatoblastoma-derived (Hep G2) cell lines were therefore investigated. ... These results demonstrate that IGF-I reduces CBG and SHBG production by Hep G2 cells by decreasing mRNA steady state levels. The discrepancy between the inhibitory effects of insulin on CBG and SHBG mRNAs and protein secretion suggests that insulin exercises its inhibitory effects mainly on the mechanism(s) of translation and/or excretion of CBG and SHBG.- Differential effects of insulin and insulin-like growth factor I on the production of plasma steroid-binding globulins by human hepatoblastoma- derived (Hep G2) cells, JC Crave, et al., Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Vol 80, 1283-1289

The results obtained in Laron syndrome, isolated GH deficiency and constitutional short stature patients treated with IGF-I or GH, indicate that serum insulin had consistently an inverse relation with the levels of circulating SHBG. No relation was found between IGF-I and SHBG levels. - Comparative effects of GH, IGF-I and insulin on serum sex hormone binding globulin, Gafny, M, et al., Clin-Endocrinol-(Oxf). 1994 Aug; 41(2): 169-75"



why do people say their PCT was a breeze while taking igf1lr3? well because of its insulin like action, not its purported hyperplasia (not really), think about taht one.

anywas goodluck man
 
You took omne with no serm.........glad i'm not you. Would probably still be wise to get a serm and start it.
 
Best of luck to you man! I would see a Doc pronto! Get em back and keep em! Maybe try the TRS from PP (a board sponsor).
 
I would get back on cycle with something weak and non methylated. 1-t might be your best bet because it is nonmethylated, but is still pretty supressive. This will supress you again completely, and then you need to do a proper pct with either torem or clomid/nolva and some oct products. I wouldn't touch insulin, IMO that is bad advice. I've never heard such rubbish. This is your best bet unless you want to be on hrt. Hope you plan things better next time.
 
LilPsychotic said:
I would get back on cycle with something weak and non methylated. 1-t might be your best bet because it is nonmethylated, but is still pretty supressive. This will supress you again completely, and then you need to do a proper pct with either torem or clomid/nolva and some oct products. I wouldn't touch insulin, IMO that is bad advice. I've never heard such rubbish. This is your best bet unless you want to be on hrt. Hope you plan things better next time.
Click to expand...

lets be sensible and reasonable here

whats wrong with the studies?

search igf usage in PCT and see how many people loved it, igf works mainly through its insulin like effect in terms of growth (people refuse to believe that) but it is also beneficial in terms of LH release, because it acts like slin duuuh....it is better than hcg because it doesnt have any negative feedback like hcg does. i think you are stuck in the idea that insulin is dangerous and is only for pros and blah blah. you are not really thinking outside the box. fine, try igf then if you cant get hcg. shhhhhhhittt

dude, i agree with your strategy too, i almost said the samething...then again i could say your method of thinking is rubbish too...what do you have to back up with? any studies? your blood work? any experience? you think this guy with small nuts will take a chance in another suppression? can YOU guarantee it will comeback? is your brain a PS3 with a reset button? or will he take the chance in gtting HCG illegally or trying out slin and risking death if hes dumb with it? who knows. What if your advice causes even more suppression and he never comes back? hope you dont get sued. what if he dies from slin? i hope i dont get sued lol

its a discussion.
 
Well, studies are one thing, but documented experience is another. I never heard of anyone solving this particular problem with slin or igf. Its not the danger factor, its the "has anyone ever tried this factor". My suggestion is probrably the most reasonable. He could just try to do a proper pct without going "on" again, but I think that it would be most beneficial if he becomes completely supressed. I told him to go with something light because he just came off an extremely heavey cycle less than two months ago. The OP should post exactly what he took, for both cycle and pct to get a full appreciation of what actually happened.
 
dude studies are one thing, but a first time user with slin unless watched closely can be very dangerous. and why use insulin when you have things like corosolic acid and common sage? they can both lower blood sugar, and the pathways it goes through has much less uptake into adipose then insulin.
 
crazyfool405 said:
dude studies are one thing, but a first time user with slin unless watched closely can be very dangerous. and why use insulin when you have things like corosolic acid and common sage? they can both lower blood sugar, and the pathways it goes through has much less uptake into adipose then insulin.
Click to expand...

Slin used wisely can work wonders. Beat any slin mimicker out there. I agree though, it's use can be dangerous if you jump blindly in this.
 
I gotta agree with the clomid thing.. Id run a low dose(12.5mg-25mg) for a month or so.. Starting with some blood work would be a smart move. Then retest a month or so after you come off the clomid. But thats me.


jjohn said:
Slin used wisely can work wonders. Beat any slin mimicker out there.
Click to expand...
Really, slin better then slin mimickers? never would have guessed.:thumbsup:
 
crazyfool405 said:
dude studies are one thing, but a first time user with slin unless watched closely can be very dangerous. and why use insulin when you have things like corosolic acid and common sage? they can both lower blood sugar, and the pathways it goes through has much less uptake into adipose then insulin.
Click to expand...

Right, I totally agree. I've never heard of anyone combating a shutdown problem with slin. On top of that its incredibly dangerous and can cause death almost immediately if not used properly.
 
jjohn said:
Slin used wisely can work wonders. Beat any slin mimicker out there. I agree though, it's use can be dangerous if you jump blindly in this.
Click to expand...


yea its not something you wanna **** around with, and if you do, i would talk to a type 1 diabetic lol. from what i know, there are many kinds of insulin out there, fast acting slow acting, all with different peak times, and its 1cc to every 15g of carb, and it depends on how many carbs you eat and the GLYCEMIC LOAD of the carbohydrates as well

the good thing about insulin mimickers is the uptake into adipose tissue is less then that of slin,
 
comacho said:
okay,

can you get hcg?

if not you need insulin as it has positive affect on GNRH,

if you get hcg try 1000iu twice a week, take 500iu twice a week for three weeks the whole time taking arimidex or some sort of AI, dont go too crazy on AI though...then do clomid/nolva for another month or Torem for one month. Take nettle extract (divanex) while on SERM as they can raise SHBG. wait for a month (keep taking divanex) then take see what happens, you wont be jumpin on that cycle for a loooong time. well thats IF you want your balls back prior to cycle. Can't guarantee if this will work but thats what i would do man.

as for insulin, its dangerous so READ about the usage and timing, or you will DIE.

i do 4 iu during PCT with SERM along with igf or related peptides, there is no crash or anything like that...although i used hcg during my cycle and came off before PCT started.

below is the studies which datbtrue found, so the credit goes to him and his thread which can be found at dat's protocol to cjc/ghrp
Click to expand...
Where did you read that nettle root raises SHBG?

I've never read that.

Also, obviously, if he didn't read up enough to do a proper PCT then recommending him insulin is like telling a Jr varsity football receiver to run a crossing route in an NFL game...
 
crazyfool405 said:
yea its not something you wanna **** around with, and if you do, i would talk to a type 1 diabetic lol. from what i know, there are many kinds of insulin out there, fast acting slow acting, all with different peak times, and its 1cc to every 15g of carb, and it depends on how many carbs you eat and the GLYCEMIC LOAD of the carbohydrates as well

the good thing about insulin mimickers is the uptake into adipose tissue is less then that of slin,
Click to expand...



Right. Humalog (the quickest) is often used post wo. And there are no real general rule of thumb for carbs, you gotta start really low, and work your way up as insulin sens. decreases.

Anyways, all this to say it<s like comparing apples to oranges...
 
jjohn said:
Right. Humalog (the quickest) is often used post wo. And there are no real general rule of thumb for carbs, you gotta start really low, and work your way up as insulin sens. decreases.

Anyways, all this to say it<s like comparing apples to oranges...
Click to expand...


i know in diabetics its 1cc to every 15g of carb.
 
this is straight from Dav Palumbo

IGF-GH-INSULIN STACK

2-4IU GH upon waking with 4-6IU Humulin-R
10-20mcg IGF-1 After you train with 4IU Humulin-R
 
well im not take insulin lol. too many mix comments any other ideas im thinking hope on another cycle and pct right way. or just take clomid/nolva now and hope my balls come back?
 
hardknock said:
Where did you read that nettle root raises SHBG?

I've never read that.

Also, obviously, if he didn't read up enough to do a proper PCT then recommending him insulin is like telling a Jr varsity football receiver to run a crossing route in an NFL game...
Click to expand...


lol, funny analogy, you are right.

**** my bad on SHBG,,,i mean SERMs raise SHBG, not nettle,,,you would take nettle extract to combat that. sorry for being unclear. divanex is really good from nutra.

i mean many AAS or proviron would do the same but i woundnt throw anything AAS related during PCT...thats just me, i know people love proviron during PCT, but dont have much experience on that.

crazyfool, i didnt know steroidal AI lowers estrogen and shbg,,,interesting as you mentioned this in another thread?

Soad, goodluck to you man, like i said that light cycle then RIGHT PCT could work.

lilpsych, crazyfool, and others,,i would DEFINITELY use slin mimickers if they had specific studies like the ones i referenced. They are in vitro, but like i said, others and myself included had a great recovery using slin, so tahts why i suggested. I know it is dangerous but so are other things (i used yellow gold for two days and im still suffereing and it has been more than a month, scary stuff), plus people will use anything if they want to anyways. So at least hope you found this info interesting and please dont dismiss it as rubbish :) slin is not REQUIRED for pct i wasnt saying that, its another tool, think of it that way.
 
comacho said:
lol, funny analogy, you are right.

**** my bad on SHBG,,,i mean SERMs raise SHBG, not nettle,,,you would take nettle extract to combat that. sorry for being unclear. divanex is really good from nutra.

i mean many AAS or proviron would do the same but i woundnt throw anything AAS related during PCT...thats just me, i know people love proviron during PCT, but dont have much experience on that.

crazyfool, i didnt know steroidal AI lowers estrogen and shbg,,,interesting as you mentioned this in another thread?

Soad, goodluck to you man, like i said that light cycle then RIGHT PCT could work.

lilpsych, crazyfool, and others,,i would DEFINITELY use slin mimickers if they had specific studies like the ones i referenced. They are in vitro, but like i said, others and myself included had a great recovery using slin, so tahts why i suggested. I know it is dangerous but so are other things (i used yellow gold for two days and im still suffereing and it has been more than a month, scary stuff), plus people will use anything if they want to anyways. So at least hope you found this info interesting and please dont dismiss it as rubbish :) slin is not REQUIRED for pct i wasnt saying that, its another tool, think of it that way.
Click to expand...


heres you go...
 

Attachments

crazyfool405 said:
this is straight from Dav Palumbo

IGF-GH-INSULIN STACK

2-4IU GH upon waking with 4-6IU Humulin-R
10-20mcg IGF-1 After you train with 4IU Humulin-R
Click to expand...

This is like saying you need 33.93939 grams of protein post workout.

Everyone's insulin sensitivity is different, mostly depending on their diet.. If you ever do it, take it into consideration and just start low..
 
jjohn said:
This is like saying you need 33.93939 grams of protein post workout.

Everyone's insulin sensitivity is different, mostly depending on their diet.. If you ever do it, take it into consideration and just start low..
Click to expand...


lol, yea i agree, i was just posting his protocol.
 
crazyfool405 said:
heres you go...
Click to expand...


bro, thanks for the article, good read.

i do not disagree about CA's ability to mimic insulin

i was talking about is tehre a study on CA that has positive effect on GNRH and LH output like the slin studies...taths all.

while we are sorta off course at this topic,
can you recommend a good brand of CA ? thanks.
 
comacho said:
bro, thanks for the article, good read.

i do not disagree about CA's ability to mimic insulin

i was talking about is tehre a study on CA that has positive effect on GNRH and LH output like the slin studies...taths all.

while we are sorta off course at this topic,
can you recommend a good brand of CA ? thanks.
Click to expand...


PSlin or bulk Banaba leave 20% standardized to corosolic acid, I think nutra may have that in the future.
 
i dont understand what difference it makes if he takes clomid/nolva or torem now to bring him back than if he took them right after....how could it make a difference being that its later on that earlier after the cycle. It should still work the same and bring him back just as quickly as if he used a SERM during the first PCT
 
monsterbox said:
i dont understand what difference it makes if he takes clomid/nolva or torem now to bring him back than if he took them right after....how could it make a difference being that its later on that earlier after the cycle. It should still work the same and bring him back just as quickly as if he used a SERM during the first PCT
Click to expand...

The use of a SERM assumes that your HPGA is still functioning but only with imbalances. Prolonged shutdown can eventually cause MPH inhibition causing your HPGA to release only trace amounts of GnRH. The worst case scenario is there is a total absence of GnRH.

A SERM can't help you at that point.
 
comacho said:
okay,

can you get hcg?

if not you need insulin as it has positive affect on GNRH,

if you get hcg try 1000iu twice a week, take 500iu twice a week for three weeks the whole time taking arimidex or some sort of AI, dont go too crazy on AI though...then do clomid/nolva for another month or Torem for one month. Take nettle extract (divanex) while on SERM as they can raise SHBG. wait for a month (keep taking divanex) then take see what happens, you wont be jumpin on that cycle for a loooong time. well thats IF you want your balls back prior to cycle. Can't guarantee if this will work but thats what i would do man.

as for insulin, its dangerous so READ about the usage and timing, or you will DIE.

i do 4 iu during PCT with SERM along with igf or related peptides, there is no crash or anything like that...although i used hcg during my cycle and came off before PCT started.

below is the studies which datbtrue found, so the credit goes to him and his thread which can be found at dat's protocol to cjc/ghrp

"Previous studies have shown that insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LH synthesis and release from primary gonadotrophs. In this study, regulation of LHbeta gene expression by GnRH and insulin was examined in LbetaT2 cells. Endogenous LHbeta mRNA is stimulated 2.4-fold by insulin alone, 2.6-fold by GnRH alone, and 4.7-fold by insulin together with GnRH. This effect of insulin, like GnRH, mapped to sequences -140 to +1 in the mouse LHbeta gene. Insulin together with GnRH stimulates activity of an LHbeta-reporter gene 7.1-fold; whereas, GnRH alone or insulin alone stimulates the reporter activity 2.8- and 3.1-fold, respectively. Blocking the binding of Egr-1 to sequences -51 to -42 in the LHbeta gene inhibits effects of insulin and GnRH. Insulin together with GnRH increases Egr-1 mRNA levels and total Egr-1 binding to LHbeta DNA. These findings indicate that insulin may impact regulation of the reproductive axis at the level of the pituitary. - Insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LHbeta gene expression by Egr-1, Buggs C, et al., Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2006 Apr 25;249(1-2):99-106

"Our findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release." - Insulin enhancement of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release by cultured pituitary cells, EY Adashi, Endocrinology, Vol 108, 1441-1449


The effects of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and insulin on the function of coho salmon gonadotropes in vitro were investigated. Dispersed pituitary cells from immature coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) were incubated with IGF-I for 1, 3, 7, or 10 days, then incubated with salmon GnRH for an additional 24 h. Medium FSH content before and after GnRH treatment and intracellular FSH content after GnRH treatment were measured. Incubation of pituitary cells with IGF-I for 7 or 10 days increased GnRH-stimulated FSH release and remaining cell content, but did not affect basal release. To examine the specificity of the effects of IGF-I, we compared FSH release and cell content of FSH and LH after 10-day incubation with a range of concentrations of IGF-I or insulin. Incubation with physiological concentrations of IGF-I resulted in significantly higher GnRH-stimulated FSH release and remaining cell content of FSH and LH. Conversely, supraphysiological concentrations of insulin were required to produce more moderate effects on gonadotropin levels. These results suggest that elevation of gonadotropin levels by IGF-I may be one mechanism by which somatic growth and nutrition promote pubertal development in salmon. - Insulin-Like Growth Factor I Increases Follicle-Stimulating Hormone (FSH) Content and Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone-Stimulated FSH Release from Coho Salmon Pituitary Cells In Vitro, Dianne M. Baker et al., Biology of Reproduction 63, 865-871 (2000)


Changes in the plasma levels of corticosteroid-binding globulin (CBG) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) from birth to adulthood suggest that growth factors might influence clearance and/or hepatic secretion of CBG and SHBG in humans. The effects of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and insulin on CBG and SHBG synthesis by a clone of human hepatoblastoma-derived (Hep G2) cell lines were therefore investigated. ... These results demonstrate that IGF-I reduces CBG and SHBG production by Hep G2 cells by decreasing mRNA steady state levels. The discrepancy between the inhibitory effects of insulin on CBG and SHBG mRNAs and protein secretion suggests that insulin exercises its inhibitory effects mainly on the mechanism(s) of translation and/or excretion of CBG and SHBG.- Differential effects of insulin and insulin-like growth factor I on the production of plasma steroid-binding globulins by human hepatoblastoma- derived (Hep G2) cells, JC Crave, et al., Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Vol 80, 1283-1289

The results obtained in Laron syndrome, isolated GH deficiency and constitutional short stature patients treated with IGF-I or GH, indicate that serum insulin had consistently an inverse relation with the levels of circulating SHBG. No relation was found between IGF-I and SHBG levels. - Comparative effects of GH, IGF-I and insulin on serum sex hormone binding globulin, Gafny, M, et al., Clin-Endocrinol-(Oxf). 1994 Aug; 41(2): 169-75"



why do people say their PCT was a breeze while taking igf1lr3? well because of its insulin like action, not its purported hyperplasia (not really), think about taht one.

anywas goodluck man
Click to expand...

Hey man I am trying the approach of HCG for 2 weeks, about 1500iu every 3 days, then going one more week but stopping winnie and starting pct: Nolvedex, inhibit e, trib, lean extream, vitamin e and milk thistle - - how did you do using HCG earlier ---- I have had acne and libdo issue before, but not so far but then I just started PCT today. What do you think of my plan? 4 weeks
 
I know - see article in latest Muscular Development - Clomid is king - but I cant use it - too much mind games and acne
 
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